Confessing a Past Affair

kdt26417

Official Greeter
Staff member
I have two ethical dilemmas to describe to you, and I would request your opinion of what the right solutions would be. I will post my own opinion after a few responses have trickled in.

In polyamory, we tend to emphasize the importance of consent in concert with full knowledge of what's going on. Without full knowledge, true consent is not possible because someone doesn't know what they're really consenting to. Keep this in mind when reading and considering these two dilemmas.

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Dilemma #1: A Monogamous Ending

Richard and Barbara were high school sweethearts, have been married for about ten years, and are both about thirty years old. They have a mutually satisfying marriage and two beautiful children. Richard, for his part, wouldn't trade what he has for anything in the world.

Yet, as humans are sometimes wont to do, Richard runs into an old flame, someone he used to love in middle school. Her name is Madison. He and she lost contact with each other when her family moved far away, and somewhere in his heart he always felt a missing spot where Madison used to be.

Richard and Madison catch up on their years of separation, and find that they have more in common than ever. They also find that they still have romantic feelings for one another -- or that they are developing a new set of romantic feelings that are more adult and sophisticated than when they were young teens. Madison did get married but it was a short marriage and she has been divorced for several years.

Well as you might imagine, Richard and Madison find themselves easing down the slippery slope towards a full-fledged secret affair. They know nothing about polyamory and never intend for things to go as far as they go, but first there is an exchanging of emails, then meetings over coffee, then walks in the park, then theater movies, then TV at Madison's apartment, then snuggling, then kissing, then fondling, then intercourse. They don't race down this slippery slope; they ease down it a little at a time. It makes it easy for Richard to think he doesn't need to bother Barbara about it at first, and by the time Richard realizes things have become serious enough that he needs to tell Barbara, they've also become so serious that he no longer dares to tell Barbara.

The affair (now full-fledged) continues for about a year. Richard is torn over what to do. He feels worse and worse about doing Barbara wrong, and more and more afraid that Barbara will discover the affair which would be a disaster.

Finally, with a heavy heart, Richard tells Madison that he has to stop seeing her. She weeps as he breaks the news to her, but she understands why he has to do it. The affair ends, and Richard and Madison basically stop contacting each other. It's too painful for them to break up unless they break up completely.

For awhile, Richard feels better about being faithful to Barbara. He's no longer having an affair behind her back. His full attention is now once again being turned 100% toward her and the kids. Despite the ache in his heart over losing Madison, he feels that things turned out as well as they could have, and that everyone dodged the bullet.

But in time, a new dilemma begins to form in Richard's mind. He begins to wonder if he should tell Barbara about the affair after all. Even if it's something that would never happen again, the hard truth is that Barbara no longer knows who she's married to. She thinks she's married to a man who's always been faithful to her. In truth, she's married to a man who cheated on her, and she doesn't know that. Would she stay married to him if she did know? The only way to find out is to tell her what he did. In the meantime, no one can really know whether she truly consents to this continuing marriage, because she doesn't have the full knowledge necessary to give her consent. That choice is being taken away from her.

Should Richard tell Barbara about the affair he had with Madison? The benefit would be that if their marriage survived, it would be a more honest marriage, based on full consent with both parties having all of the facts.

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Dilemma #2: A Polyamorous Ending

Let's start with the exact same scenario that we used in Dilemma #1. However, let's add a twist to the way things play out.

Let's say that during Richard and Madison's secret affair, they find out about polyamory. Their hearts are imbued with new hope as they see how this might end up happily for everyone.

Richard tells Barbara what he has learned about polyamory. He admits that he and Madison have been reconnecting, but he doesn't confess to the full seriousness of their affair. He only says that he and Madison have been realizing that they have feelings for each other.

Richard asks Barbara to consider a polyamorous scenario in which she, Richard, and Madison merge into an FMF V. Richard will be the hinge of the V. Barbara and Madison will be the legs of the V. And hey if Barbara and Madison develop more than a platonic relationship with each other, that's wonderful too. But Richard just proposes a V for now.

Needless to say, this news does not come easily to Barbara. She cries and feels somewhat betrayed. She asks Richard to cool the jets in his relationship with Madison until Barbara has some time to think. Richard agrees, apologizes about the hurt he has caused, and tells Barbara to take as much time as she needs. He offers to answer any questions she may have.

But Richard doesn't summon up the strength and courage to truly come clean and abide by Barbara's wishes (and neither does Madison). Instead, Richard and Madison continue to conduct their full-fledged affair, while hoping that Barbara will say yes to a polyamorous arrangement.

Well, about a year later, after much research and many difficult discussions with Richard, Barbara finally decides that she is okay with the polyamorous idea, and agrees to it. She feels like she can trust Richard and Madison, which helps her to open her mind and heart to the whole thing.

So, a polyamorous V is born. Barbara, Richard, and Madison have a lovely handfasting ceremony and promise to love and cherish each other for years and years to come. The children have grown to love being around Madison and are happy to have her join their household. She is like a special aunt to them.

The only problem is that Richard and Madison's fully romantic and sexual relationship has never really changed during this whole time. So while Barbara believes the handfasting is the point in time when Richard and Madison started having intercourse, the truth is that Richard and Madison have already been doing that for a year.

Nonetheless, a very happy polyamorous family blooms from the shadows of the once-was affair. Years go by, and the three adults (and their children) grow to be quite happy and content with their whole situation.

Except that Barbara doesn't know what she really consented to. She thought she consented to the beginning of a sexual and romantic relationship between Richard and Madison. She doesn't realize that she actually unwittingly consented to the continuation of a sexual and romantic relationship between Richard and Madison.

The more Richard thinks about it, the more he realizes that Barbara's consent was based on a lie, and thus, there is more than a little bit of question about whether Barbara consented at all. Was she ever given the opportunity to truly consent?

Eventually, Richard confronts himself with the question that I now ask you: Should Richard tell Barbara about the continuing affair he had with Madison before the handfasting? The benefit would be that if their V survived, it would be a more honest V, based on full consent with all three parties having all the facts.

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Now why would Richard hesitate for one moment to tell Barbara the truth, once he had realized that the truth needed to be told? Well, one reason would be that it would hurt Barbara terribly. In fact it would hurt the whole family. It would likely lead to a traumatic divorce. Who knows how it might affect the kids.

Leaving things the way they are has the benefit of "ignorance is bliss." Sure Barbara is making uninformed decisions by giving (and continuing) her consent, but since it's not hurting her in practical terms, does that make it okay? Indeed, does that make it the higher moral road to travel in this particular situation?

Thus concludes the ethical dilemmas I wanted to describe to you. If you are willing to share, I would like to know what your opinion is about what Richard should do.

Now I know it's obvious that Richard just should have been 100% honest with Barbara right from the beginning. But if, for argument's sake, we overlook or forgive his initial (year or more of) dishonesty, what should we advise him to do in the very end, after the scenarios have completely played out in the way I've described them above?

And of course, if there's any additional thoughts you want to add, I would be more than willing to receive them. For example, what does all of this say about honesty in general? Does it say that sometimes there are gray areas? Are there any alterations to the story (e.g. changed ages/genders, no kids, etc.) that would change your answers/conclusions? Is there anything you'd like to say about what Madison should do (and should have done)?

I appreciate you taking the time to read and consider this post.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Most of my life my opinion was that there was no benefit AND it was selfish to confess a wrong after the fact. A way of easing your own burden so to speak; by way of dumping it on your partner.
In that case I would say-suffer alone and leave Barb her blissful ignorance.

However; having come full circle and finding that the benefit to myself, both partners, our kids, grandkids etc: was SO MUCH, when I decided to honestly reveal everything...
I think maintaining a lie is destroying any opportunity for a real relationship and is holding not only barb back-but the whole family
 
Thanks for your input guys. I will have more to say about it later, after I publish my own answers to the dilemmas. To let you know, I have already composed the post with my answers, and did so before reading either of you guys's posts. So my answers (my initial answers at least) will be totally my own without thread bias.

LR, it's amazing how one's outlook on such a fundamental subject can change so much over the years. I myself used to be very, "It's this way," only to completely transform and end up saying, "No, it's that way."

Inyourendo, I think it's a very good point that learning from the past indiscretion and never doing it again is at *least* as important as figuring out whether or not to disclose.
 
It's hard for me to imagine these scenarios as I have never been able to keep a secret from a partner.

That said, the idea that Barb "doesn't know the person she is married to" unless he confesses, seems false. In both scenarios, the man loves her, his life with her, and his family - both before and after. He did not change; he made an error in judgement. At the late date in both scenarios, confessing would do nothing but ease his burden of guilt and wreak havoc on the entire family. And in the polyamorous scenario, Barb knows he loves Madison, so unlike the monogamous version, that fact isn't even a secret.

The above is logic. But given the fact I can't ever keep a secret from my partner(s), I can't help, but wonder if the secret would erode their connection.
 
Ignorance is bliss. Having been on both sides of the second scenario I would claim their is no benefit to confess. In reality there is no harm done. There is this concept that because we are romantically involved with someone that means that person should know every little aspect of our life and that we are undeserving of any privacy. What gives any person the right to have God like knowledge of all actions that their partner does? I feel that spilling the beans only causes hurt and doesn't solve any problems. In fact it only creates potential new problems. We get so caught up in our own self importance that we forget that somethings have absolutely nothing to do with us.
 
My moral fibre and conditioning are whispering, "Tell, tell, tell." However...

In either scenario, if he tells her, he will cause an unbelievable amount pain, unnecessary hurt, and possibly lose his marriage and family. If anything, he might feel even more guilty after telling her. (I have had the unfortunate pleasure of comforting someone in the aftermath of an affair, and I have never seen such hurt in a person's eyes before. The tears never seemed to stop falling either.) All the revelation might do is cause him to lose Barb's trust and run the risk of their marriage never being the same again--if she stays. What purpose would it serve for him to cause her grief and multiple forms of loss? (Loss of respect and loss of trust are two major ones.) Some people can bounce back from an affair. Others not so much.

I am really on the fence about this one. If a child was conceived or there was a risk of an STD due to carelessness and unprotected sex, there would be no internal discussion. I would tell. Actually, I would tell in either scenario and just be prepared to deal with the consequences of my actions. Guilt would eat me alive. When I was doing my dirt last year and being underhanded, I died little by little inside, so if it was something like an affair? No way I could keep quiet.
 
I think that the right time to come clean about a mistake you have made is as soon as possible. So right after Richard realizes that he has already crossed the line. Not doing that only made things worse for him.

Now he has let this lie grow for over a year… I'd say that in #1 he shouldn't tell. I don't see anything good coming out of that. The secret will eat him, but that is his problem. But… if he ever finds himself in a similar situation, he'll have to confess both affairs at the same time. And this is a risk he'll have to take. He might decide never to do it again, and still end up doing it. Is he willing to take the risk to have to confess to affairs at the same time? That would be even worse than having to confess one.

#2 First I have to say that this reminds me too much of the situation I was in… I was cheated on in a polyamorous relationship and the guy wanted to keep his mistake a secret. He had thought that once I'd get over the initial difficulties and they could start a relationship he could come clean and the cheating wouldn't matter. But I'm disgusted by the idea even, and it didn't go that far. I guess I sensed something was off and said that I'm not comfortable with how things are going. The other woman called the potential relationship off and he confessed the cheating (and his plan to manipulate me into a V). And here's the problem: Richard didn't confess, so he has manipulated Barbara into a complitely new life. Something she had to struggle to be able to accept. The whole V is based on a lie, and there are now two people lying to Barbara. Her consent wasn't real, how could it have been. I mean… Barbaras decision to accept the V is based on her feeling of trust. But Richard is not trustworthy.

Also in both scenarios my answer might be different depending on how explicitly they had agreed to no cheating -rules. Did Richard make statements like "I'll never cheat on you"? Was there a boundary that stated an affair would end the marriage? If there was, then I feel not telling is even worse than if there was no explicit promises or boundaries.
 
If it was truly a one time thing then telling her would be pointless and selfish. If his affair has told him that he is poly or that the marriage isn't right for him, then he should tell her that. Telling her about the affair may not be necessary and it's just a way of making someone else feel bad when they really don't have to.

As for taking a break in the relationship whilst cheated on partner comes to terms with the betrayal, it's only really a break if you have no contact. Honestly, I think the most ethical way to proceed is to dump the person you cheated with and maybe, in the future, develop a polyamorous relationship with someone new. No matter how you look at it, once those feelings are there, the relationship is continuing. You just might not be having sex.

If you're wanting to be ethical to the person you cheated on, you'd get the person who enabled your betrayal put of your life. At least for a year or two. No contact. Anything else is just for show. It's not a real recognition that your behaviour was unacceptable. It's more like "oh, you caught me, I'll pretend I'm sorry now but in no time I'll make out it was your fault anyway and I'll keep doing that until you let me do what I want".
 
Thank you everyone for weighing in on this perplexing matter. I am now going to post my solutions as I composed them prior to your posts. Of course I'll still want and welcome more votes and feedback after I post my own; I just figured it was about high time I took my own turn. And so ...
 
My Solutions

Note: I composed this post before reading anyone else's solutions to the dilemmas. So what I'm writing in this post is my pure unadulterated opinion before it could be influenced by anyone else's opinion.

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To get right down to brass tacks: I think Richard (and Madison) should keep quiet about their past affair -- in both dilemmas.

Not to say I strongly believe that; I think it's a tough call. And I'm not totally sure how to justify my opinion. In very broad strokes, I guess I could say it is a utilitarianist opinion, rather than a deontological opinion. That is, it's not so much based on intrinsic right-or-wrong, as it is on what seems to facilitate the most happiness for the most people.

You could actually argue either way about Barbara. You could argue that she's being mistreated by not being allowed to view the full truth, but you could also argue that she's being helped by not being exposed to painful truths. You could argue that her psychological growth is being constricted by denying her the challenge of hearing about the affair, but you could also argue that we can grow psychologically in any number of ways during our mortal years. Perhaps the damage Barbara would experience from hearing about the affair would hamper her psychological growth in other area/s. You could argue that telling the whole truth might open up possibilities for greater trust and intimacy. But you could also argue that it might destroy trust and intimacy permanently.

My opinion here could be modified depending on further details about the case -- especially on what I knew about Barbara's psyche. If Barbara is a strong, flexible person, then she could probably withstand the bad news and recover from it. In that case, Richard should actually go ahead and tell her about the affair. But if Barbara is a fragile, brittle person, then the bad news could virtually destroy her inside. In that case, Richard should not tell her about the affair.

But assuming I don't know such details about Barbara's psyche, I guess I am inclined (intuitively at least) to play it safe. Which is why I voted the way I did.

I'm sure I'll have more to say on the subject in response to other people's posts about it.
 
I can understand why Richard didnt tell the truth at the beginning, but he should have told her. The longer he left it the harder it became to tell her and in the second scenario I can see why he felt that the potential damage to the settled family unit justified keeping the circumstances of his affair secret. However I think he should have been honest with his wife, it should have happened earlier, but even at such a late stage I think the truth must be told.

My response to this scenario would at one time have been less certain and in the second senario I may have thought that protecting the family unit outweighed Barbara's right to know about the earlier affair. Having been in a fairly similar situation (to the first scenario) myself I am convinced that he has to tell his wife the truth. A relationship that is based on dishonesty is not real, Barbara could find out the truth at any time and she would almost certainly feel that she had been treated very badly. It would be better for Richard to tell her the truth and to admit that he has made a terrible mistake.

When I found out that my husband had cheated the thing that I found hardest to forgive was that he had taken decisions which affected my sexual health without giving me the chance to consent or to protect myself. Reassuring me that he was safe didn't help at all; I had trusted him, he let me believe that we were monogamous when we weren't and that took away my right to make choices about my own safety. For me it was vital to have absolute honesty in order to find a way forward.

We had a good outcome in the end, we are still together and we have been a triad for over four years, we are all happy with the way things have worked out but getting over that sort of dishonesty is a long and sometimes painful process - there are no easy answers!
 
Ah good - a bit of an ethical dilemma. I'm having a worrisome day and this might help to take my mind off it. :D

To get right down to brass tacks: I think Richard (and Madison) should keep quiet about their past affair -- in both dilemmas.

If the scenario that you outlined I'd agree with you and for pretty much the same reasons. They should keep quiet because to do otherwise just brings more harm into the situation.

But but but - in the real world, things are not going to be as clear cut as that. In the real world, Richard has to find some way of dealing with the fact that he got into the position of having an affair in the first place. How on earth can he be sure it won't happen again without spending time reflecting, getting help, finding somebody to talk to about it. All of this stuff is more that is to be hidden from Barbara. Plus - any changes in his attitude or any adjustments he wants to make to their marriage as a result of this work has to have a made up story to account for them. So more lies and more chances of being caught out.

Then there is the thing of Richard being in a position to know that he won't have another affair (presumably he feels badly about it if he's not going to do it again) and having guilt to deal with. Horrible feelings that he can't share with Barbara. I'd imagine she'll notice. Most people notice when somebody very close to them is having a hard time.

What does he do then? Claim depression for no reason, depression because of his work, their children, some other aspect of their home life?

So then Barbara is dealing with a depressed husband and very probably some guilt of her own. Has she not been supportive enough? Is she too self centred? Is his depression in some way her fault? After all, she is his wife and they spend a lot of time together.

I'm thinking that things will not be okay between them unless Richard is a sociopath and able to not feel guilt or remorse (but probably in that scenario, he wouldn't be that worried about having more affairs) or Barbara is completely lacking in awareness of her husband's emotional state.

My take is that in the real world if Barbara, Richard and Madison are all emotionally capable and caring individuals, they need to tell Barbara because she will know that something is wrong and is probably at least partially blaming herself for it.

She shouldn't have to take on that sort of guilt because her husband doesn't know how to behave like a reasonable human being.

So in theory, I think keeping quiet is the best thing but in the messy world of reality and practise, talking about it is what should happen.
 
Additional Comments -- 1 of 2

These are some of the thoughts I had after reading the other people's posts about this subject.

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Re (from LovingRadiance):
"I think maintaining a lie is destroying any opportunity for a real relationship and is holding not only Barb back -- but the whole family."

LR, I can certainly agree with you on that point, *provided that Barb's psyche can withstand the blow.* This is the type of dilemma where I think a lot of the devil can be found in the details. Hence when I gave my official solution, I was careful to note that my opinion could be changed based on certain details. In retrospect, I think maybe I should have said more about how strong and flexible (or fragile and brittle) Barb is. But then I think, no, it's good for that aspect to have come out after the basic picture was presented.

It would certainly be a powerful lesson to the children, that you tell the truth *no matter what.* And I know that most of the poly wisdom out there would definitely advocate teaching that lesson (and setting that example).

I think another thing that could change my "official opinion" is, what are the chances that Barb will find out about the affair on her own later on? because if she discovers it herself, rather than hearing it from Richard (and/or Madison), the damage will most certainly be worse. So when I say, "Don't tell Barbara," I am kind of assuming that Richard and Madison can virtually guarantee that Barb will never find out on her own.

To make sure I'm not misunderstood: Keep in mind that the situation as I've dealt with it here, is the situation where the affair has long since receded into the past. Richard wouldn't be telling Barb about something he'd just done, nor something he was still doing. He'd be telling Barb about something he did quite awhile ago. I haven't addressed the questions of what he should do if the affair was still up close and personal on the timeline.

But since I've now mentioned it, I guess my answer would be the same *if the affair was indeed over.* If the affair was still happening, I'd advise Richard to come clean (and probably stop the affair immediately as well). If he was unwilling to do that, then I'd at least want him to have an exit strategy -- a way and a timetable by which he would (soon) end the affair. If he was waiting on Barb to decide whether she could live with a poly scenario, then I suppose that's one thing that could be considered an exit strategy. But if Barb decided against living with a poly scenario, then I think it would be time for Richard to come clean. I suppose at that point he'd have a decision to make: Madison or Barb.

No easy answers here ...

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Re (from Inyourendo):
"I too would vote not disclosing the past indiscretion and learn from it/never do it again."

Yeah, that's basically my position.

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Re (from bookbug):
"The idea that Barb 'doesn't know the person she is married to' unless he confesses, seems false. In both scenarios, the man loves her, his life with her, and his family -- both before and after. He did not change; he made an error in judgement."

Ahh ... here we come upon an important question that I didn't consider myself: whether something Richard *does* defines who he *is.* I will have to think that one over.

Heh -- I should add that if Richard isn't very good at keeping secrets, then confessing to Barb (the sooner the better) would have to be the only choice for him that would make sense. I only submitted my original opinion based on the assumption that Richard and Madison could both keep the secret very well. Affairs are dangerous: There can be no doubt about that. They can even be dangerous after they're over. It's like keeping an old bomb in your basement. Better make sure it stays well boxed up and that nothing will ever accidentally activate it.

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Re (from graviton):
"What gives any person the right to have God-like knowledge of all actions that their partner does?"

This is a tough one. The whole idea behind polyamory (for most polyamorists I think) is that there are no secret affairs. Everything is out in the open, and everyone consents to it. Of course, we are talking about an affair that happened in the past. Perhaps bygones should be bygones, and this one falls outside the realm of what a partner necessarily has a right to know. I couldn't say ...

Re:
"I feel that spilling the beans only causes hurt and doesn't solve any problems."

That would be my concern too, although as I mentioned, a lot could depend on what kind of mettle Barb is made of.

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Re (from FullofLove1052):
"If a child was conceived or there was a risk of an STD due to carelessness and unprotected sex, there would be no internal discussion. I would tell."

Agreed.

Re:
"Guilt would eat me alive."

When worded that strongly, one has to wonder if confessing doesn't become Richard's only real choice. Is it possible he should base his choice on how much guilt he endures?

[continued below]
 
Additional Comments -- 2 of 2

[continued from above]

Re (from copperhead):
"If he ever finds himself in a similar situation, he'll have to confess both affairs at the same time."

Interesting. Kind of a two-strikes-you're-out type of approach. One affair is an unfortunate anomaly. Two affairs are a pattern.

Re:
"Richard didn't confess, so he has manipulated Barbara into a completely new life."

Indeed he has.

Re:
"Barbara's decision to accept the V is based on her feeling of *trust.* But Richard is not trustworthy."

Ah ... now we come back to the question of whether something Richard *does* defines who he *is.* In this case, we are saying that Richard broke Barbara's trust, and that this action defines him as untrustworthy. Perhaps a different kind of man wouldn't have made that kind of mistake?

Re:
"Was there a boundary that stated an affair would end the marriage? If there was, then I feel not telling is even worse than if there was no explicit promises or boundaries."

I didn't get sufficiently detailed in my description of Barbara and Richard's marriage to clear that up ... but intuitively, I think I had in my mind the unspoken assumptions that surround most marriages in today's society. And maybe they are spoken, if the marital vows include the words, "forsaking all others ..." I just think that those words are generally assumed. It's more a case of, if you want your marriage to have some poly wiggle room, then *that's* what you should explicitly state in your vows. Otherwise I suspect that most people will agree the unspoken assumptions will hold. At the least one would suppose that Barbara would be relying on those unspoken assumptions. But as the world becomes "more poly," a bigger and bigger gray area will supplant those assumptions.

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Re (from london):
"Honestly, I think the most ethical way to proceed is to dump the person you cheated with and maybe, in the future, develop a polyamorous relationship with someone new."

Just so we're clear: This means that Madison should not be a part of the end picture in any case -- am I right? Can she be in the end picture if Richard first cuts her off at least for a year or two?

Re:
"If you're wanting to be ethical to the person you cheated on, you'd get the person who enabled your betrayal out of your life."

That quote makes the post it was in the first post that's put a particular spotlight on Madison's culpability. For her to be in the end picture, she'd have needed to refuse to let Richard seduce her in the first place. (Does that change if she cuts Richard off for at least a year or two?)

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Re (from Kernow):
"My response to this scenario would at one time have been less certain and in the second senario I may have thought that protecting the family unit outweighed Barbara's right to know about the earlier affair."

Here, too, we see how starkly today's opinion/perspective can contrast with "yesterday's" (e.g. some odd years ago).

Re:
"A relationship that is based on dishonesty is not real ..."

Yes, that does seem to be the problem.

Re: assumptions about Richard and Madison practicing safe sex ... are all well and good, except that most of us would agree that there is no such thing as 100% safe sex (at least not where intercourse is concerned). So there's that to consider when Richard tries to make his decision about whether he should confess.

Re:
"We had a good outcome in the end, we are still together and we have been a triad for over four years, we are all happy with the way things have worked out but getting over that sort of dishonesty is a long and sometimes painful process -- there are no easy answers!"

Still, it encourages me to know that dilemmas like Richard's can have a happy -- and honest -- ending!

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Re (from InfinitePossibility):
"My take is that in the real world if Barbara, Richard and Madison are all emotionally capable and caring individuals, they need to tell Barbara because she will know that something is wrong and is probably at least partially blaming herself for it."

To quote Sir Walter Scott:
"O, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive!"

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I appreciate everyone's comments. It has forced me to think. Perhaps my basic answers to the dilemmas remain the same -- maybe -- but they're at least more constrained now by the details that can tip the balance one way or the other.
 
Re: "If he ever finds himself in a similar situation, he'll have to confess both affairs at the same time."


Interesting. Kind of a two-strikes-you're-out type of approach. One affair is an unfortunate anomaly. Two affairs are a pattern.

Two affairs, to me, would imply that it was not just an accident or something about Madison, that made him do it, but rather something about Richard (say he's poly…) so then Barbara has a right to know what kind of person she's sharing her life with.

Re: "Barbara's decision to accept the V is based on her feeling of *trust.* But Richard is not trustworthy."


Ah ... now we come back to the question of whether something Richard *does* defines who he *is.* In this case, we are saying that Richard broke Barbara's trust, and that this action defines him as untrustworthy. Perhaps a different kind of man wouldn't have made that kind of mistake?

The mistake that defines Richard untrustworthy is not the affair, but keeping the secret. Making a mistake, even a prolonged one is not what defines people. It's waht you do after you realize you've made a mistake. In this case Richard is lying and leading Barbara to live a lie. And Madison is in it too. So how they handled the crisis is what defines them untrustworthy.
 
The mistake that defines Richard untrustworthy is not the affair, but keeping the secret. Making a mistake, even a prolonged one is not what defines people. It's waht you do after you realize you've made a mistake. In this case Richard is lying and leading Barbara to live a lie. And Madison is in it too. So how they handled the crisis is what defines them untrustworthy.

Absolutely right.
 
The mistake that defines Richard untrustworthy is not the affair, but keeping the secret. Making a mistake, even a prolonged one is not what defines people. It's waht you do after you realize you've made a mistake. In this case Richard is lying and leading Barbara to live a lie. And Madison is in it too. So how they handled the crisis is what defines them untrustworthy.

Yup. Well said, copperhead.

Can I assume Richard and Madison value "honesty" on their values list somewhere -- otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue for them?

Now why would Richard hesitate for one moment to tell Barbara the truth, once he had realized that the truth needed to be told?

Well, one reason would be that it would hurt Barbara terribly. In fact it would hurt the whole family. It would likely lead to a traumatic divorce. Who knows how it might affect the kids.

To me? That is fortune telling possible future yucky outcome as excuse for NOT doing honest (telling behavior) now.

Fortune telling could just as easily be

"that would stink for a while, but they'd be all the stronger for it. They'd have to do counseling, and reframe boundaries and regrow trust but come out better in the end. The kids are fine."​

Or

"Barbara thought it was cool. Kinda turned on. Yay."​

Point is, ACTUAL outcome cannot be known until the telling behavior is done FIRST to set things in motion.

Not doing honest (telling behavior) today because of fortune telling something yucky as a reason? That's weak reason to not do it to me. I've seen it before with some cheaters -- it's like whitewashing personal responsibility away. Or answering to fear. Or both. Telling is rooted in a better character trait to me -- honesty. Even if the price tag is that Barbara doesn't appreciate it and decides to leave the relationship.

Leaving things the way they are has the benefit of "ignorance is bliss." Sure Barbara is making uninformed decisions by giving (and continuing) her consent, but since it's not hurting her in practical terms, does that make it okay? Indeed, does that make it the higher moral road to travel in this particular situation?

To me that's Richard minimizing impact to avoid personal responsibility for behavior done/not done. That's a different kind of whitewash dissembling than "fortune telling."

It might not hurt her in practical terms AT THIS TIME. Could it hurt her later in practical terms down the road?
Does it hurt her in other ways right now? Not practical, tangible ways, but other ways? Yup. She's not being given full data to be able to give her full consent.

And how about Richard and Madison? How does staying silent hurt them? Mentally? Emotionally? Physically? Spiritually?

And how trustworthy is Madison? Will she cheat on Richard, since she's ok cheating WITH Richard? Then what? Why is she not taking some personal responsibility for coming clean to Barbara? He didn't cheat alone.
LR, I can certainly agree with you on that point, *provided that Barb's psyche can withstand the blow.*

If Barbara is so delicate (ex: cancer of the body, or depression -- an illness of the mind) what's Richard doing cheating in the first place? That is worse than cheating on a healthy partner! (And cheating on a healthy partner is not good either.)

Nope. Barbara's health status has nothing to do with Richard behavior.

If Richard is telling Madison or himself "I cannot tell her I cheated now. She's got cancer/depression/she's a delicate flower who will fall apart if she knows..."
I have to shake my head and call it rationalizing it away by a combo of "fortune telling" and "emotional reasoning." Maybe as a patient she's found inner strength. She doesn't fall apart at all. Can't know the actual outcome until things are known, right?

It's just a big ol' mess. Richard's thinking process is wonky to me with the fortune-telling, the minimizing, the emotional reasoning.

It all boils down to

Richard has cheated.

  • Is it honest, forthright and transparent to tell his wife he broke agreements? And they need to talk? Yup.
  • Is it honest, forthright and transparent to SKIP telling his wife he broke marraige agreements? Nope.
  • How much does Richard value (honest, forthright, transparent) in his personal ethics? Only Richard knows.

Richard has to decide that. It's HIS personal ethics -- not mine.

Now I know it's obvious that Richard just should have been 100% honest with Barbara right from the beginning. But if, for argument's sake, we overlook or forgive his initial (year or more of) dishonesty, what should we advise him to do in the very end, after the scenarios have completely played out in the way I've described them above?

I would tell him...


"Richard, If it were me? I'd tell. But you could sort out your values in this scenario for yourself. In no particular order, I identify these as some of the things you value right now in telling me your problem:

  • rship with Barbara
  • rship with Madyson
  • personal comfort
  • respect for my partners
  • respect for myself
  • honesty
  • taking personal responsibility for my actions

It's easy to make choice when we don't value things much. When it is more "down to the wire" when you have to take out your values list and discern more closely what matters to you the most because you aren't going to get them all. In that case you could try to answer to highest value(s) in the long term.

If I value (honesty) the most, but aim lower on the list for (personal comfort) reasons, my (self respect) bucket is gonna take a ding. I don't like how that feels.
If I value (honesty) the most, my (personal comfort) bucket will take a ding in the telling because its hard to admit one's own mistakes but my (self respect) bucket will maintain equilibrium. I rather have that.

That is me and my value system . You are you though.

Cannot have all the buckets here, Richard. Down to the wire. Pick the ones you can live with dinged and the ones you want left standing and preserved. Pick what leads you to you being your BEST version of yourself. That's basically it. Only you can decide what you do next."​

Galagirl
 
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I only have an answer for situation #1 - Do not tell. If, it is truly over and he never cheats again, then telling would be for purely selfish reasons of reliving his own guilt at the expense of his wife's feelings. Go to therapy, but don't drag everyone else into hell with you. However, if the wife ever asks if he has ever cheated, he shouldn't lie.

Situation #2 has so too many variables for me to wrap my brain around it.
 
Re (from copperhead):
"The mistake that defines Richard as untrustworthy is not the affair, but keeping the secret."

We could perhaps say that an indiscretion is an unfortunate anomaly ... whereas lying about the indiscretion adds up to a pattern. Is untrustworthiness a deep-seated personality defect, and can an untrustworthy person be reformed?

@ GalaGirl ... if I am interpreting your post right, you are of the opinion that basic right and wrong take priority over avoiding negative consequences -- and that one should not assume the consequences won't be ultimately positive. So, if Richard loses Barbara and the kids; in short, no matter what he might lose, telling the truth is of utmost importance and should be done as soon as he comes to that realization. And that he should have faith that he won't regret doing the right thing in the long run.

This is the ideal way of describing Richard's choices, while Richard himself may choose to describe them differently based on his value system. If retaining Barbara (and the kids) at all costs is his reigning priority, then honesty will take a backseat to it.

In a word, the happy poly family with a lie at its foundation is a hallucination, a house of cards that will someday topple. It would be better to tear it down now and start over, if that's what it takes to lay a reliably honest foundation.

That's one way of summarizing your position as far as I can tell.

Re (from SNeacail):
"If it is truly over and he never cheats again, then telling would be for purely selfish reasons of relieving his own guilt at the expense of his wife's feelings."

This is a new concept for me, and one that has come up repeatedly in this thread. I had always assumed that Richard's prospective confession would be a selfless act on Richard's part, because

  • the confession would be likely to cost him dearly -- he might lose Barbara,
  • the confession would be an (admittedly painful) gift to Barbara -- the gift of knowing the truth, thus enabling her to make a fully-informed choice about it.
But several people have pointed out that Richard would be "using Barbara as his priest," so to say, unloading his guilt onto her so as to take a weight off his mind but add the weight to hers. I am not sure what my stance on this concept is. Like I said, it is a new idea for me, so I will have to think about it.

Re:
"However, if the wife ever asks if he has ever cheated, he shouldn't lie."

Interesting. Almost seems to add a random element for Richard's criteria in deciding what to do, but I can see the appropriateness of it.

Re:
"Situation #2 has so too many variables for me to wrap my brain around it."

Yeah, it's a tough one. There's a *lot* at stake, in many directions.
 
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