What if polyamory stops working?

My story is on this forum in bits and pieces from the past two or three years, but the summary of my situation is that I have a monogamous husband who is tolerating my relationship with a man (Colin) I fell for about a year and a half ago.

Through lots of trial and error, we agreed last summer to an arrangement where I can go out of town two days a month to be with Colin. My husband prefers this to having him cross paths around our home on a less predictable schedule, and Colin and I love getting to have a solid chunk of time together, rather than trying to fit short visits between other things in our busy lives.

The problem is, this is getting harder and harder for my husband to take. Even though I am scrupulous about sticking to our agreements (including no PIV sex, which is increasingly agonizing), my husband feels like I am cheating on him. He doesn't feel like he can love me as much as he used to, and he feels like he is getting shortchanged out of the marriage he expected. I totally understand his perspective, and I feel awful about it, but I don't know what to do.

We are in counseling, and trying to focus on improving the relationship we have between us, leaving my polyamory as a sort of side issue that the counselor almost seems to find irrelevant for now. I do think there is a lot my husband and I can do to improve our marriage, in terms of how we treat each other and how we live our lives. However, it's clear that this business of polyamory is hurting him more over time. He won't tell me to change what I do, because he doesn't want to be in the position of controlling me, or forcing me to give up something important to me, but I think he feels more and more betrayed by the fact that I am going forward, in spite of his pain.

How would I go backward? Can a connection be unmade, or a relationship unformed? If I told my sweet adoring boyfriend that I wasn't going to see him any more, would that make my marriage stronger, better? Should we put a stop to our physical intimacy? I already feel like making PIV sex a taboo has had the unintended effect of giving all of our intimate encounters a layer of excitement and creativity that exists for the mere fact that we can't have routine sex, so I think if we stopped all of it, we'd build up an enormous amount of sexual tension. If I stopped seeing him at all, I'd cry buckets.

I'm trying to find the middle road between guilt and longing. I love them both, and I want them both to be happy, but my husband is not happy.

HUSBAND'S POSITION

He won't tell me to change what I do, because he doesn't want to be in the position of controlling me, or forcing me to give up something important to me, but I think he feels more and more betrayed by the fact that I am going forward in spite of his pain.

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Let's try this on by taking ALL names out of the equation, and talk about it like it's generic people. Sometimes that technique can help shed light by removing some of the emotion clouds.

• The husband could acknowledge he feels pain right now.
• The husband could take responsibility for himself and his own well-being and long-term health.
• The husband could examine what behavior he does that ensues in pain for him.
• The husband could acknowledge that he is choosing to participate in a non-monogamous marriage configuration that does not feed him.
• The husband could acknowledge that choosing SILENCE when something bugs him is not working for him.
• The husband could choose to change his behavior to see if better feelings ensue over time.

What could the husband choose to do as his next behavior?

The husband could choose to say to the wife: "Wife, I gave it a try. I find it is still not for me. Are you willing to be in a monogamous marriage with me, now that we've tried it on and it is time to re-assess?"

If the wife says yes, she is willing:

• The husband could choose to stay with the wife in the new monogamous-marriage configuration.
• The wife would adjust her stuff because she is willing to do it.

The wife says "maybe" or "not sure":

• The husband could ask for the wife to present her final word by X deadline of reasonable time, and if thr deadline for "thinking time" passes without definite input from wife:
  
  
  The husband can choose to move his life forward to a healthier space without the wife's input, since she has nothing solid to share at this time.​
  
  (She was given the opportunity to speak up or not. She did not give definite input. He has no choice but to move on without her input toward his best health.)

The wife says "no, not willing":

• The couple could choose to end the non-monogamous marriage.
• The couple could choose to be friends afterward.
• The husband could choose to heal himself, and when ready, find the partner willing to be in a monogamous marriage configuration that would feed him in that bucket.
  The wife could choose to heal herself, and when ready, find the partner(s) for non-monogamous relationship configuration that would feed her in that bucket.
• The husband and wife could each choose to reach toward the best long-term health and well-being for the individuals.
• The husband and wife could each choose to accept that this configuration has reached the final stop. The journey has ended. Time to get off the train and move forward.

WIFE'S POSITION

I'm trying to find the middle road between guilt and longing. I love them both, and I want them both to be happy, but my husband is not happy.

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• The wife wants to be in a non-monogamous configuration.
• The wife sees and knows the husband is unhappy in a non-monogamous configuration.
• The wife is concerned for the husband's well-being.
• Th wife is aware that the husband is not willing to speak first.

What could the wife choose to do as her next behavior?

She could choose to stay silent:

• Watch husband suffer some more.
• Suffer herself.
• Choosing this behavior is her demonstrating loving behavior to husband she loves. (yes/no?)
• Does her TALK match her WALK with this choice, when she says she loves him? (yes/no?)

The wife could choose to speak up:

The wife could choose to initiate the hard conversation:

If the husband answers yes, the wife must be prepared to answer:


I am sorry you are hurting. But fear, or unwillingness to do introspection work on yourself, or not liking to feel yucky feelings, are not good reasons to avoid having the hard conversations that must be had.

Have them.

Are you a participant in your marriage tending or not? The marriage is hurting. Tend it. This includes talking to him about ending it, to stop the continual suffering you both experience, and how you want to be after that sort of option, if the you (plural) choose that.

What could the couple choose to do?

Choose to speak to willingness.
Choose to do the work of un-suffer.
Choose to stop focusing on what they do not want (Aaaah! Marriage ending!) that is causing paralysis.
Choose to focus on running toward something good that both want:

• End the thing that does not work. Cultivate a relationship that could work if both want it and are willing, be it monogamy, or friendship only.

Do not stay in "ugh" because of the fear of "yucky," and keep cultivating a thing that isn't feeding either much of anything but suffering.

Whatever the outcome the couple decides to work toward, e.g., new and improved poly-ship, monogamy, breaking up and being friends, something else, I suggest you both could choose to be willing do the work of "un-suffer" to get yourselves to a happier place.

SPEAK UP. SPIT IT OUT.

You even have a counselor already -- let's go! Work on the communication skills you both could grow to better steer this relationship to its next port of call.

Hoping you both do okay,
Galagirl

My husband said to me today that our "agreement" was something he was forced into, because he believed I would revert to a recurrent illness if he didn't give in. He said that I have not been loyal to him, because I have been in a relationship with another man, despite knowing that he did not "really" agree to it.

I called Colin, and we agreed to cancel our trips, and not be intimate, which really means not being together.

My husband is thankful and relieved. He says now, finally, he can start putting effort into making our marriage better.

I am crying and crying and crying. I went running until it got too dark. Now what? How can I find closeness and intimacy with my husband, when I so much resent his unwillingness to make this work? (I say unwilling in part because he backs out on our agreements, and in part because he flatly refuses to try to learn or understand anything about polyamory on the grounds that he doesn't want anything to do with it.)

Should I smile, fake domestic happiness, offer my body to him, and hope that eventually I convince myself that this is what I want? Or should I go live in the guest room, and write down every wonderful moment I've had with Colin before I forget them, because they have been some of the absolute best moments of my life? At least for a little while?

This hurts SO MUCH! Why must I choose? I get to love both my children, and both my parents. How does my loving another man hurt my husband so much?

Being on the young end at this forum, and very new, I apologize ahead of time for any naivety. (And I think I just point that out because Galagirl has provided such a great breakdown, as it is.)

Honestly, it does not sound like you want to be with your husband anymore. Or at least you are just willing to be unhappy in a relationship with him.

It seems your emotions are not very flexible concerning your monogamy with him. You have to ask yourself, is it worth suffering to stay with him? Do you want to stay with him so bad that you don't mind letting yourself hurt? Is it because you believe one day you will heal? Do you think you can learn to be happy in a monogamous relationship?

Perhaps you just need the forum to vent your feelings, which is perfectly all right, I think. Maybe deep down you believe that you can be happy again with just your husband. It seems that way, because you haven't chosen to leave him (and that could rely on a whole bag of other issues that have nothing to do with your desired relationship dynamic.)

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, you are hurting, and it may help to dig down a bit deeper as to why you currently hurt, find out if you're going to continue to hurt, and if it's worth it. Being unhealthy to yourself, trying to convince yourself of something you might not ever agree with, will be your undoing, and I don't mean just cheating on your husband.

AC, it is bittersweet to hear from you. I am glad to see a post from you again, because your participation here has been missed, but I am so very sorry to hear that it has gotten to this point... again. You have had so many bumps in the road, and your husband has made you spitting mad sometimes, but it seemed to be taking baby steps forward after each time you and he would talk and get clear on things.

I know that his Indian culture, and his huge pride about what a proper wife and mother should be, have influenced his choices in the past. But I can't quite believe him when he says he went along with polyamory against his wishes, and because of your heart condition. That sounds too much like blaming you for his remorse over choices he made. He is regretful, and not accepting responsibility for the agreements he made and then went back on, so many times.

I would be upset too, if I were you. You've told us before that there were many times he expressed being satisfied with the arrangement. After misunderstandings, you strove to accommodate his requests, and always respected his wishes. And he acknowledged that-- until the next time he had remorseful thoughts and started picking on you again. So it seems like to me, he either lied then, or is lying now.

I think that, besides his refusal to try and learn more about polyamory, one of your biggest issues is communication. He has gone back on his word so many times, or misconstrued small things as huge transgressions against him. I also think that your therapy needs to focus on how he sees the roles of husband and wife, and what marriage means to him. I feel like a broken record saying that, but every time you and he have an issue, I get the sense that most of his struggle is with the IMAGE of marriage and what your being polyamorous would MEAN, in relation to his position and knowing his place in the world. I am afraid I may not be expressing it well, but I think his issues are less about you two as the individuals you are, with whatever needs you have, and more about what a husband and wife should be to each other, according to what he thinks is the right way to be.

Another thing I noticed is that every time he expresses his displeasure, you immediately go to remedy it by putting the brakes on your other relationship. You never really let your husband stew and feel the depth of his discomfort. He protests and you jump. I'm not saying that you should rub his nose in anything, or make him suffer, but you are always so accommodating that I don't think he ever really works through any of the stuff he feels. Nor does he ever seem proactive! He waits for you to do something, expresses how he feels and thinks and believes, and then waits for you to fix it. There's something to look at there... I'm not sure what, though.

I'm glad you came back here to let us know what's going on. I hope you find a satisfying way out of the pain, something that all of you can live with.

I'm sad to hear that things aren't going well. I've always been interested in your story and I know how hard you have worked on your marriage.

Unfortunately, I have to go back to my initial first impression: your husband has too many issues of his own that he is unwilling to address. Would an amicable divorce be possible?

You love your husband, but he doesn't share your views on marriage, love, sex, etc. You've worked hard to go at his own very slow pace with your polyamorous relationships, but he's not even grateful to you/appreciative of you for that.

I'm so sorry.

He said that our "agreement" was something he was forced into because he felt I would revert to a recurrent illness if he didn't give in.

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He signed up to do something he was not willing to do because of a fear he had. He did not speak to his willingness.

I have not been loyal to him, because I have been in a relationship with another man, despite knowing that he did not "really" agree to it.

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• He gave you false information (past behavior) about his willingness to participate, rather than just stating, "I am not willing to participate." (Giving false information is lying.)
• Now he is blaming your current behavior for his yucky feelings that ensued after his own past behavior choice. (Not wanting to be responsible for his own actions.)
• He had the expectation that you would read his mind for the "real" information. (An unrealistic expectation, aka not communicating clearly.)

Do these behavior of his create a trusting, loving environment in the marriage, a list of less than forthright behavior? No.

• You went with the information he presented in good faith, as a wife willing to trust her husband.

Does this behavior of yours help create a trusting, loving environment in the marriage, demonstrating a willingness to believe him? Yes.

You could bring up in counseling:

• What behavior could you each do to help create a trusting and loving environment in the marriage?
• Who will be doing what?

You could also mention in counseling, if he:

• does not know his own wants, needs and limits
• cannot articulate them clearly to you, so you can understand them
• expects you to be a magical mind reader
• cannot own his behavior choices
• cannot own the feelings he has after his behavior choices
• cannot help to create a trusting, loving environment in the marriage

You cannot hit a moving goal post.

You could ask him (in counseling) if these are behaviors he's willing to change, in service to the marriage health, so that you both can be in right relationship.

I called Colin, and we agreed to cancel our trips, and not be intimate, which really means not being together. My husband is thankful and relieved and says now, finally, he can start putting effort into making our marriage better.

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Husband got his "time-out break," with the scary boyfriend set to the side, for a bit. So now, HOW he will behave differently? Is there a list being prepared in counseling for behavior he will now execute to to help create a trusting, loving environment in the marriage for both parties?

Here is your opportunity: what are your wants, needs, limits in this marriage? What do you need to be fed? What do you expect your husband to deliver?

Here is his opportunity: what are his wants, needs, etc.? What does he expect you to deliver? Are these things SMART-- (S)pecific, (M)easurable, (A)ttainable, (R)ealistic, (T)imely? Or is it more mind-reading stuff that is not attainable by anyone?

If he presents you with a crazy list, you can say you are not willing to sign up for this. He can make you a new offer. Make sure your list to him is SMART, realistic.

Assuming you are willing to give him another chance, This is the final checkpoint, right? Because you can't hang around waiting forever for him to choose behaviors that are constructive to the health of the marriage, rather than indulging in all these destructive behaviors.

Remember to speak to willingness! Do not be willing to be in just any ol' kind of relationship with him. Do what it takes to be in RIGHT relationship, so you, he and the marriage can be healthy. Is he now going to provide you with the right to responsiveness, clear communication and all that has been missing so you can be in right relationship? Get it written down and be willing to hold each other accountable. Here's ours. Feel free to borrow what helps you as you form yours.

I am crying and crying and crying. I went running until it got too dark. Now what?

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I am sorry you are hurting. Do your self care.

You could choose to take charge of your own life and your own behaviors, after taking time to calm your soul. Yes, you CAN choose!

How can I find closeness and intimacy with my husband, when I so much resent his unwillingness to make this work? I say unwilling, in part because he backs out on our agreements, and in part because he flatly refuses to try to learn or understand anything about polyamory on the grounds that he doesn't want anything to do with it.

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In my universe, he'd be on strikes. I have a limit. I am willing to work with a partner learning new skills, but three strikes, you're out. I'm not up for endless shenanigans. I want a seriously trying player. He's not sounding like one.

I've written about this in my journal, mono-poly mismatch.

If you choose to agree to a closed polyship of two, is he going to agree to open to the authentic polyamorous you and allow you poly expression? Share in your inner emotional world? You are starving for emotional intimacy with him.

He can choose to provide for your need for emotional intimacy, or not. He chooses his behavior, not you.

But you can see what he chooses next, and then choose your behavior: stay or leave.

I know it is hard to FEEL. But the actions are simple. You choose your own next behavior based on what's going on around you and information received. So, choose to get on with your living your life in a way that is healthy.

Should I smile, fake domestic happiness, offer my body, and hope that eventually I convince myself that this is what I want?

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How is this YOU tending to your long-term health? I do not suggest this. It is not healthy.

Can I go live in the guest room and write down every wonderful moment I've had with Colin, before I forget them, because they have been some of the absolute best moments of my life?

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That is a separate relationship. You can choose to keep Colin, or you can choose to break up with him.

Right now, I hear that you chose to cancel a trip with Colin, and postpone sex with him, to allow space to work on the marriage, and give husband the emotional safety he needs to get his butt in gear and WORK ON THE MARRIAGE.

So let's not jump the gun on the BF thing. Thank him for his patience and willingness to let you focus on this area of your life. Tell Colin you plan to check back with on X date, so he's not out in the cold.

So, now that husband can focus, what are his deliverables for new behaviors? In what time frame? Try this new way for a month, then assess?

What do you need to see happening to make this a worthwhile return on your investment? He will choose to perform to specifications, or not?

If he chooses destructive behavior STILL, when the deadline arrives you could say, "I am sorry. You got your request for C to be on hold for a month so you could focus on healthy change. You continue to choose desctructive behavior. This does not to meet my needs. We must part ways."

That is looking out for your and his long-term health. You love him, so you are willing to endure some short-term suckage to see if he gets his act together or not. If he doesn't, you can choose to love him from a distance, where he cannot throw you under the bus.

Loving your husband does not mean you automatically staying with him. You can love him all your life. But you do not have to stay in a destructive climate.

YOU choose your behavior.

This hurts SO MUCH! Why must I choose?

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You have to choose because you are responsible for your own health. You have to live in a climate where you are able to love and care for yourself well, and love and care for him too. Is he helping to create this kind of climate in the marriage with his destructive behavior choices? No. This is not a healthy climate for you. You are not choosing between loving Colin and loving husband. You are choosing your healthy climate.

You are here:

1. You can choose to stay in a bad climate with no change.

2. You can choose to ask husband to change his behavior and improve the marriage climate. (He will choose to do so or not.)

3. Then you can choose to stay/leave based on results of his chosen behavior, because you have a limit on endless suckage, don't you?

• Breaking up sucks, but has a light at the end of the tunnel. It's short-term suckage for eventual long-term health betterment.
• Staying in never-ending suckage is draining, bad for both short-term and long-term health.

You can love each of them all you want, AND move yourself to a healthier climate.

I get to love both my children, and both my parents. How does my loving another man hurt my husband so much?

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Ask him in counseling. That is his work to do-- sorting out his feelings, and learning emotional management, introspection and articulating skills.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

He did not speak to his willingness.

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What does this mean? If he agreed to certain things, and then went back on his word and put up more restrictions, then what would "speaking to his willingness" have looked like, exactly? I find this phrase confusing.

GalaGirl said:

If you choose to agree to a closed poly-ship of two...

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I think you should explain what you mean by that. Not many people I know use the same lingo you do. As far as I know, a closed relationship of two people is called monogamy, or a monogamous dyad. And that is what AC's husband would prefer. IIRC, he has only ever been with AC.

GalaGirl said:

I am hearing that you chose to cancel a trip with Colin, and postpone sex, to allow space to work on the marriage and give husband the emotional safety he needs to get his butt in gear and WORK ON THE MARRIAGE.

So let's not jump the gun on the BF thing. Thank him for his patience and willingness to let you focus on this area of your life. You could tell C you plan to check back in on X date, so he's not out in the cold.

So now that husband can focus, what are his deliverables for new behaviors?

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Yes, and they have done this before. In older threads, you will see that this is not the first time AC put a stop on activities with the boyfriend -- AND there was also another love that she let go completely -- to make peace with her husband. Her husband has done this back and forth number on her time and time again.

GalaGirl said:

If he chooses destructive behavior STILL, when the deadline arrives you could say, "I am sorry. You got your request for Colin to be on hold for a month so you could focus on healthy change. You continue to choose desctructive behavior. This does not to meet my needs. We must part ways."

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AC, I agree with this and the others who have said similarly, that maybe the marriage is heading to an end, though I know how deeply you love your husband. Unfortunately, once again, here I am saying: love is simply not enough to make a relationship satisfying and fulfilling. There has to be a true partnership, where each person gives of themselves and creates a space for the other to shine fully with the light of who they are, and to be the best they can be, as well as living as fully as they can and striving for their own full potential. It's just not enough to love someone if a working partnership isn't there. Yes, keep working on the issues in therapy, but consider that the alternative, as scary and terrible as it may be to even think of splitting up, could be the key to your freedom and happiness. For both of you.

So sad to read that you are going through this. I've followed your story and had hoped that things were going better between all of you.

The situation you are in now absolutely sucks.

It has always sounded to me like you and your husband care deeply for each other. You have been willing to shift the relationship with your boyfriend numerous times to try and help your husband feel more comfortable. Your husband has been willing to agree to a situation that he has been clear is upsetting for him. Your boyfriend has dealt with the resulting shifts in his relationship with you without complaint.

The love and effort from all of you shines through in your posts, but maybe there is just no way to make this work as you want it to? I reckon you've all given it a good long try, and have made numerous attempts at shifting and changing arrangements to see if they would work. Maybe you have to choose something that isn't exactly what any of you want.

You could carry on as you are right now, allowing your husband to be uncomfortable. Nobody's life is perfect. Maybe having an ongoing niggle that you have a boyfriend is something that you and your husband can live with?

You could work on just being friends with your boyfriend, allowing yourself to be uncomfortable. Nobody's life is perfect. Maybe having an ongoing niggle that you don't have a boyfriend is something that you and your husband can live with?

You could work on just being friends with your husband, and co-parenting your children, while both being free to pursue whatever lifestyle makes you each happiest. It might not be the most comfortable situation. Nobody's life is perfect. Maybe having an ongoing niggle of being friends and co-parents with your (ex) husband is something that you and he can live with?

I wish you well.

I'm sorry to hear things aren't going well. With the long absence, I'd assumed all the kinks had been worked out.

To your question-- when was it working well? In every thread, or conversation you and I ever had, your husband was against it. He didn't sign up for it. He doesn't want to share his wife with two other guys. He tolerated it to make you happy, to keep the family together, etc., etc. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought you said that once the kids were gone he would re-evaluate the marriage at that time. The DADT, all those things, are the definition of not being on board.

I think you have to give him some credit for trying, unless everything he said and did were just ways to run the clock.

If you didn't have kids, how long would this situation have lasted? Or would it have started at all? Wouldn't he have said, "See ya later. Have a nice life"?

Clearly he's mono. Lots of people are, all over the world. That's his choice.

You now identify as poly. That's your choice, or the hand you've been dealt.

Life is too short for you to deny all that you are, or compromise away the great majority of who you are, or how you want to express yourself. And the same thing goes for him. If he wants a full-time mono wife, why settle?

You're both settling and both resentful! If you truly loved him and wanted him to be happy, you'd set him you free. And he'd do the same for you. It's clearly just incompatibility, cramming someone in too small a shoe.

Thank you all for your comments. I had forgotten how good it feels to get the support of all of you.

Divorce is definitely not being ruled out, but we both are very fond of and attached to the life we have built together, especially the family we have created with our daughters (now 6 and 10). I bring my problems here, but the fact is we do a lot of things well together. I can't imagine right now any life apart from him that would feel better than what we have together. I don't want to live alone, or elsewhere. I don't want to just be with someone else instead of him. I want to be with him, and I want to make the best of what we can be together. That at least is our goal for now, to try to make our marriage as good as it can be, given our differences.

I suppose I should let go of the dream of being married to him for the rest of my life. In fact, in counseling last week he said it was not something he thought he could do. (I was shocked and crushed.) I know I can't be happy acting monogamous forever, especially with someone who loves so differently from me. I think we owe it to the kids to at least see if we can make this work for now, though. I don't mean "stay together for the kids" but rather "attempt rediscovering happiness together, for the kids and for us."

On a brighter note, Colin (can I still call him my boyfriend?) came to town for a dance last night, so we first had several dances together, in which we carefully refrained from bursting into tears, and then went to a pub where we had a good long talk. The way he sees it, we are just taking away this almost superficial aspect of our relationship, the physical intimacy, but he is as committed to loving me as ever. When I reminded him of the difficulty we had in the past trying to find time for each other (he lives 5 hours away) and that without overnights we would be back to this very random infrequent way of seeing each other in passing, he said he thought he could change his lifestyle in order to spend more time in my part of the state. I was surprised, given that I can't offer him a physically intimate relationship any more. He said I have become an extremely important part of his life, and, sex or not, he wants to keep me in his life. This comforts me. We haven't really broken up. We just have to express our love differently. It almost felt last night as if we were recommitting even more to being in each other's lives.

Sometimes when I'm talking to my husband, I feel like our differences in the way we view/feel love, relationships, life, social interactions, etc., are so completely different that we will never understand each other. It's overwhelming to try. I sometimes wish that we could live together as friends and partners in raising our children, and just let go of that part that is causing us so much difficulty, having a romantic partnership. But he desperately wants a conventional life. So I will give being a traditional wife another try.

AnotherConfused said:

I sometimes wish that we could live together as friends and partners in raising our children, and just let go of that part that is causing us so much difficulty, having a romantic partnership. But he desperately wants a conventional life. So I will give being a traditional wife another try.

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I still haven't heard a peep about what your husband has done to change a single thing. Once again, it's you making all the sacrifices for what your husband wants. What about what you want?

In other words, before you try to become a "traditional wife," I think you should let it be enough effort on your part that you've made those changes to your relationship with Colin. It's your husband's turn to show his commitment to you and the marriage by changing his behaviour.

Like GG said, give him a specific timeframe to show he's making changes. Tell him that at the end of that timeframe, if he has shown progress, you will continue having the less-than-you-want relationship with Colin, but if he does not meet you halfway, then you have no obligation to make up the difference..

Sure, I'll try to clarify.

What does this mean? If he agreed to certain things, and then went back on his word and put up more restrictions, then what would "speaking to his willingness" have looked like, exactly? I find this phrase confusing.

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It means when he made the agreement to open, he made the agreement without really being willing to go there for his own self.

Say Person A agrees in this manner:

• I don't really want to, but I'll do it for your sake (speaking to lack of assertion, of owning their own boundaries, a people-pleaser type)
• I don't really want to, but I'll do it because I am afraid of losing you (speaking to fear of breaking up)
• I don't really want to, but I'll do it because I am afraid to be alone (speaking to fear of being lonely)

or whatever the reason might be. Of course, it's rarely stated that clearly.

None of these things show "speaking to willingness." It is not making the decision from a place of "speaking to willingness" to go there of your own desire. It is not something that "speaks to willingness," like...

• "That sounds great. I want to learn to do that with you. I would LOVE to do that! It sounds like something that I would enjoy participating in for myself. With or without you, it sounds awesome, and I'd totally do it for myself. With you it is just even better. Yay!"

When he does things he is not really willing to do, then later, if something happens that he does not like, or is unhappy with, well... why didn't he just "speak to his willingness" from the get-go?

Just spit it out:


He can't go there and complain about X if it turns up, and not liking it and feeling yucky about it when he went there against his own willingness. Who was holding a gun to his head? Is he in control of himself or not?

It is different than saying, "I am not sure I am going to like it, but I AM willing to try it on and then decide how it fits for me after giving it a good effort. I know what I am getting myself into. I am still willing to try."

Then when X happens, or when time is up, he can say, "Well, now that I am here and I see this is what it actually takes, firsthand, I am changing my mind about continuing to participate in this. But I came here of my own volition. It's nothing you did, and I'm not blaming you for anything. Thanks for letting me play. But I have to bow out."

Everyone can change their mind on things, but Person B was speaking to their willingness and owning it.

Here, the husband seems like he was speaking to his fear, not his willingness. And from there came the mess. It went from from bad to worse.

I think you should explain what you mean by that. Not many people I know use the same lingo you do. As far as I know, a closed relationship of two people is called monogamy, or a monogamous dyad. And that is what AC's husband would prefer. IIRC, he has only ever been with AC.

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A "closed poly-ship of two" means, to me, that the poly-ship is closed to adding new people right now. It could be a closed polyship of any # that group of people is right now, but the players are at saturation point right now, so they want no new people. The option is on the table, but the players choose not to exercise it right now. The players might go to poly events, talk about poly books, do poly STUFF, but they aren't going to be dating and adding on to the group at this time.

It is different to me than monogamy, because that would include two players only, and the expectation is that there will be no opening ever. It is just not on the table at all. There's not likely to be participation in any kind poly stuff, anywhere in the picture, including making space to allow the poly member to express their poly thoughts/feelings to their partner. That kills emotional intimacy and creates all kinds of problems in the relationship, if this is a partnership/marriage between a monoamorous person and a polyamorous person, and the poly person came into their poly-awareness AFTER the commitment/marriage. This can be hard to reconcile.

I hope that helps to clarify.

GG

I sometimes wish that we could live together as friends and partners in raising our children, and just let go of that part that is causing us so much difficulty, having a romantic partnership.

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Have you asked him if this is a possibility for him?

But he desperately wants a conventional life. So I will give another try at becoming a traditional wife.

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What is your upper limit number? How many times does the experiment need to be run before you arrive at the conclusion of "This does not work. We keep ending up with same unsatisfactory results"?

Something must change in this scenario. You could choose to move on to making changes, to do more of same and expect... what? More of same.

I am sorry you are going through this. I know it must feel terrible. But repeating known things already -- does that add to the problems or take away? Does it move things forward or keep it stuck?

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

When you do things you are not really willing to do? Then later if something happens that he does not like or is unhappy with... well... why didn't he just speak to his willingness from the get go?

. . . The DH seems like he was speaking to his fear, not his willingness.

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Well, it was the "speaking to" part that doesn't make sense to me. I don't speak to my feelings. I experience them, express them, avoid them, etc. So, I think what you mean by "speaking to" fear or willingness or whatever, is to express oneself from the perspective of whatever the feeling is. It would make more sense to me if you said "speak from" rather than "speak to."

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Basically, he is saying now that he was never willing to agree to the arrangement they had, but only did it out of fear. So, he is admitting to being dishonest, and AC is being asked to pay the price. The thing I wonder is, was he being dishonest then, in that he said he was on board when he really didn't want to be, or is he being dishonest now, in that he actually was willing, then but changed his mind (like "buyer's remorse"), and is using the idea that he never was willing as a way to guilt-trip, blame, and get what he wants from his wife?

It would make more sense to me if you said "speak from" rather than "speak to."

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Fair enough. I'll try take that on board. Let me sit with it a bit. Maybe I could say it like, "I think he could be speaking from a place of fear, anger, joy, etc."

When I talk to myself in my head, I go, "What emotion of mine am I speaking to when I do that behavior? I do X, and then I feel Y. So when I do that, I end up 'speaking to' my fear, sadness, etc. If I want to feel Z, what behavior must I change?"

I also tend to go with "that behavior speaks to," in the attempt to step away from the cloudy emotional plane. Emotion can cloud good judgement. I do feel my emotions, but when I'm thinking about my feelings, and sorting them out, I'd rather focus on the actions I did or didn't do, and what behavior I need to change to allow new feelings to ensue.

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The thing I wonder is, was he being dishonest then, in that he said he was on board when he really didn't want to be, or is he being dishonest now, in that he actually was willing, then but changed his mind (like "buyer's remorse"), and is using the idea that he never was willing as a way to guilt-trip, blame, and get what he wants from his wife?

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I wonder too. But the bottom line is still AC is being asked to pay the price.

AC expressed that, at this time, she's leaning toward trying again to becoming a conventional wife. It doesn't appear to me she is really willing to do that, but is maybe resigned to it, while upset by it on the inside. If this is the proposed solution for the next X months, I'd get that defined in writing with him at the counselor's.

• What will the wife execute in her behaviors, and bring to the marriage?
• What will the husband execute in his behaviors, and bring to the marriage?
• When is the reassessment date? What happens when it is time to take an accounting, and things are not being done? What will be the natural consequences?

No more trying to hit a moving goalpost. Both of them could define and then execute their task lists in service to the marriage, and be willing to be held accountable. BOTH players, not just one. Did they deliver or not? Are they actively tending to the health of the marriage and their partner or not?

Not being willing to be present, participating, and accountable in your own marriage is not cool. That is not two people participating in a partnership, it's a one-sided relationship.

Galagirl

nycindie said:

Basically, he is saying now that he was never willing to agree to the arrangement they had, but only did it out of fear. So he is admitting to being dishonest, and AC is being asked to pay the price. The thing I wonder is, was he being dishonest then, in that he said he was on board when he really didn't want to be, or is he being dishonest now, in that he actually was willing, then but changed his mind (like "buyer's remorse"), and is using the idea that he never was willing as a way to guilt-trip, blame, and get what he wants from his wife?

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I feel like it was more the former. He lied to himself, and to me, about being okay with a two-day-a month agreement. He now says he was at the time afraid if he didn't give in to some kind of relationship, I would get sick again. However, I distinctly remember a tone of relief in his voice when we worked out the compromise, because it meant an end to Colin being in/near our house, and visiting at a random frequency.

I did check in with him periodically and he assured me it was still working better this way. After the first overnight trip in September, we had a big fight, but when we talked it out in counseling, the counselor said we should expect a period of adjustment and it wouldn't make sense to throw away the agreement after only trying it once. After the October trip things were better, because we took to heart what we learned in September. But in trying to plan a November trip, I ran up against accusations of disloyalty, and the whole thing fell apart.

Some people have suggested it has been all compromise on my part, and no effort on his. That's really not how I see it. He has given me (willingly or not) the freedom to build a relationship outside what he had always expected to be a monogamous marriage. It has been tough for him. I don't think he has handled his difficulty well at all, but he did go through this. Also, he has made some effort to be more loving to me in the way I need it expressed, but only during times when he wasn't overcome with negative feelings about me because of my involvement with Colin. He has been going to counseling with me. His nature is to avoid confrontation and push everything under the rug.

He really would prefer an uneventful life. From his perspective, I keep setting things on fire. We have each contributed to each other's unhappiness.

I can't even think what happens next. I know that I want to be married while we raise our kids, so my focus right now is on trying to make it a happy marriage.

I've told him I am no longer willing to take any blame if he doesn't find enough happiness in his life, and I think he finally heard me-- he decided to go out dancing on his own tonight. I am thrilled, although he seemed to expect I would be hurt or inconvenienced or something. I'm enjoying a quiet night at home with the kids, and time to process things.

Colin has been texting me little hearts and smileys and brief notes all day long. I think he's still my boyfriend, even if we have to keep our clothes on. I can't believe he is still willing to hang on, in spite of the ride. I don't know if I have ever been so thoroughly loved before.

I understand why a person says one thing and does another, but I think it is wrong to blame another for your actions, and I am unhappy your husband has done so. You seem to be a good and patient partner. I am sorry more progress hasn't been made since you were last posting, one way or the other. I wonder if you can come to a content equilibrium, or if things will have to go somewhere more drastic eventually, so everybody can find their happiness.

Don't let yourself take the blame for things you didn't do. You can't make anyone feel or do anything, except yourself.

Colin's acceptance of the situation must be even more heart-wrenching, considering what is going on.

I don't have a lot to say, except that there is another person rooting for you. Keeping my fingers crossed for you. I know this road is hard.

Having arrived here from a similar circumstance, and knowing the history, I'm confused why his comment has struck such a nerve. It's a well-known fact he never wanted this. It's a well-known fact he's tolerating this.

He's the frog thrown in the warm water, and the heat has been gradually turned up. He's pushed back on his limits, house visits, last dance on New Year's Eve, PIV, etc. When the water gets too hot, starts to boil, he pushes back, all in the mindset of tolerating. Tolerating is the key word. NOT HAPPY. NOT COMPERSION.

It could be that within the "tolerating" framework, it's simple pain management for him. What's more painful, more uncomfortable, less painful, less emasculating? Agreeing to this or offering that?

The downside to counseling is hearing things that might hurt your feelings. People start sharing their thoughts and feelings. If he's telling the truth, I see him saying the pain and work of you being sick was well worth the pain and discomfort that he might feel because of the unknown weekend dates. A calculation based on what he knew from history, what he thought he could handle, and the assessment of the fragility of your health.

All of his thinking might have been crazy, but not necessarily dishonest. What difference does it make what reasons are used to tolerate his marriage-- the kids, splitting 1/2 your combined assets, love, not having to see his spouse so sick, not having to be Nurse Betty? A reason is a reason. His reasons.

People feel pressure to do things all the time that they regret after the fact. That doesn't make them dishonest.

As I said, going through this myself, I would agree that the feeling of betrayal was the number-one problem for me. I'm not sure that goes away in a "tolerating" mindset.

Here's where I see this headed if you stay together for the kids. http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18760

nycindie said:

I am so very sorry to hear that it has gotten to this point, again. You have had so many bumps in the road, and your husband has made you spitting mad sometimes, but it seemed to be taking baby steps forward after each time you and he would talk and get clear on things.

I know that his Indian culture, and his huge pride about what a proper wife and mother should be, has influenced his choices in the past, but -- I can't quite believe him when he says he went along with poly against his wishes, and because of your heart condition. That sounds too much like blaming you for his remorse over choices he made. He is regretful and not accepting responsibility for the agreements he made and then went back on so many times before.

I would be upset, too, if I were you. You had told us before that there were many times he expressed being satisfied with the arrangement. After misunderstandings, you strove to accommodate his requests, and always respected his wishes. And he acknowledged that - until the next time he had remorseful thoughts and started picking on you again. So, to me, he either lied then or is lying now. I think that, besides his refusal to try and learn more about poly, one of your biggest issues is communication. He has gone back on his word so many times, or misconstrued small things as huge transgressions against him. I also think that your therapy needs to focus on how he sees the roles of husband and wife and what marriage means to him - I feel like a broken record saying that, but every time you and he have an issue, I get the sense that most of his struggle is with the IMAGE of marriage and what your being polyamorous would MEAN, in relation to his position and knowing his place in the world. I am afraid I may not be expressing it well, but I think his issues are less about you two as the individuals you are, with whatever needs you have, and more about what a husband and wife should be to each other, according to what he thinks is the right way to be.

Another thing I noticed is that, every time he expresses his displeasure, you immediately go to remedy it by putting the breaks on your other relationship. You never really let your husband stew and feel the depth of his discomfort. He protests and you jump. I'm not saying that you should rub his nose in anything or make him suffer, but you are always so accommodating that I don't think he ever really works through any of the stuff he feels. Nor does he ever seem proactive; he waits for you to do something, expresses how he feels and then waits for you to fix it. There's something to look at there; I'm not sure what, though.


I'm glad you came back here to let us know what's going on. I hope you find a satisfying way out of the pain, something that all of you can live with.

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I am new here. I am not poly, and I am otherwise unsuited, but I felt that I had to respond to this from a guy's perspective. Did you ever think that the way he was forced into it was for fear of losing her?