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  #181  
Old 06-20-2011, 07:26 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by Derbylicious View Post
In sociology, anthropology and cultural studies, a subculture is a group of people with a culture (whether distinct or hidden) which differentiates them from the larger culture to which they belong.
And those sub-cultures are described the same as cultures, with a listing of all of the characteristics shared. Do please provide a listing of all of the characteristics of this supposed poly sub-culture. I'll offer that a single similarity does not a sub-culture make.
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When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

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  #182  
Old 06-20-2011, 07:28 PM
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Derbylicious Derbylicious is offline
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Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
And those sub-cultures are described the same as cultures, with a listing of all of the characteristics shared. Do please provide a listing of all of the characteristics of this supposed poly sub-culture. I'll offer that a single similarity does not a sub-culture make.
Where does it say there has to be more than one shared similarity?
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  #183  
Old 06-21-2011, 03:55 AM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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I know when I was in my class about Culture a couple of months ago, that culture has a more amorphous definition than people think. I used to think I have no culture-- but culture can include things like age, education, socio-economic status, etc. So yes, being non-monogamous may be a sub-culture. That doesn't mean that everyone who is non-monogamous has the same values. It just means that there is a group of people who are non-monogamous, for whom monogamy is not the chosen relationship style. Other than that, there will always be differences.
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  #184  
Old 06-24-2011, 12:56 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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I think this is an interesting excerpt from an article I just discovered about polyamory,. There is a section which compares it to different things, one of which is swinging:
"What distinguishes polyamory from other movements it is often lumped in with by mainstream observers, and what does this indicate about the self-determination framing I propose?

Swinging

Polyamory is sometimes compared to swinging. But if they are so similar, why are there so many swingers and so few polyfolk? To outsiders, both seem based on similar elements of open sexuality, yet the lifestyle gang can fill entire Las Vegas hotels with their conventions, while polyfolk count it as a big success if there are even a hundred people at one of their conferences.

The difference, I feel, is the challenge of self-determination. Very broadly stated, swingers buy into a new set of externally generated rules to enjoy a new form of recreational activity. That is, they simply trade the mainstream rules for the lifestyle rules. By contrast, the poly way is to make up one's own rules, internal to the specific relationship in question, to create a new way of structuring deep aspects of one's life. (These are broad generalizations. I know many people in the swing scene who take it deeper, and many polys who don't. But for this broad discussion, I feel these generalizations are basically valid.)

This is relevant because it is far easier to buy in to a new set of external rules than to take full responsibility for the self-examination and honest discussion necessary to create your own. So it's logical that there are far fewer polyfolk than swingers. The poly ideal is that all interested parties sit down and co-create the rules they want to live by, personally and between themselves. This is worthwhile, but it's not easy, and most people are unwilling to do the tough self-examination and open-hearted negotiation it demands.

Even more, most people are unwilling to take the necessary personal responsibility for creating a successful outcome. With some other paradigms, people accept external rules as provided. This lets them blame any failures on the external rules. But polyamory is where you write your own rules, so "the buck stops here", because "here" is where the framework got set up in the first place. "
The article is called "There's No Such Thing As Polyamory," by Barry Smiler, written last year and published in the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Volume 14, April 7, 2011.
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  #185  
Old 06-24-2011, 02:42 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
...............
The article is called "There's No Such Thing As Polyamory," by Barry Smiler, written last year and published in the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Volume 14, April 7, 2011.
That's an interesting take NYC.

I can't say that I ever thought of it that way, but can't say I disagree with the crux of it either.

I doubt that many people who swing would say/feel that they are navigating within a set of "externally" created guidelines but in fact they are to a degree. Because the swing scene is a subculture itself, of course it has it's own 'rules and guidelines' that a majority of people will adhere to - whether knowingly or not.

But I don't see poly as being any different - except in scale (numbers) as the author mentioned. It's still a subculture, has it's own set of evolving rules and guidelines, and has variance within the culture the same as all cultures do.

The fact that "poly rules" may be more difficult doesn't make it something unique. It just means the extra effort will likely discourage more people, thus keeping the numbers down.

Interesting..........

GS
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  #186  
Old 06-24-2011, 03:29 PM
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TL4everu2 TL4everu2 is offline
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Interesting. I have not read all 11 pages...but....I will say that the two are so closely interwoven, that it is difficult to see who is a "swinger", vs. a "poly person".

My wife and I started thinking we were "swingers". But in reality, I think we've always done it as poly. Yes, the sex was the leading factor in getting with another cpl, but we would only ever do anything with one other cpl. In fact, we were....exclusive....with those couples, and developed feelings for them. We have "dated" two couples, two single males, and a unicorn that got away. All over the course of about 13 years or so. Yes, we've had one night stands. However, those started out as a date...ended up in bed...and poof...they never called back, or returned calls or texts. Sooo...I guess that's the way it goes for some.

So, sometimes, a person identifies as a "swinger" (like my wife and I did for a long time) yet lived as "poly".

Our last relationship with a cpl, we realized that we had fallen in love with the female, when the male said he didn't want to do anything more because I opened up and said I had developed feelings for her. She was flattered and said she felt the same way about my wife and I and that if her hubby weren't in the picture, or they even weren't married, she would move in with us in a heartbeat. But because she WAS married, and she DID love her husband also, she had to choose to stay with him. I told her we didn't WANT them to break up! But...He equated the word "polyamory" with "polygamy", and thought I wanted his wife to add to my own. Which, would have been nice in it's self, but not what we desired. He didn't get it. Never has, sadly. So, we had to cut them from our lives entirely.


I have found that the "poly" crowd, tends to look down their noses at "swingers", as if they were "dirty" or something. Seems kinda "elitist" to me, but eh...What do I know?


So, Rules...or no rules...I don't care how it's done. But if all parties are consenting, who cares what it's called?
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  #187  
Old 06-24-2011, 05:29 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Well waterskiing and surf-boarding are practically the same thing, so who cares which word you use? What's a little thing like having a motor boat tow you got to do with it? Ice cream and frozen yogurt are practically the same thing, what's a little acidophilus culture to you? Alternating current or direct current? Bah, both are types of electricity. Who cares whether you're accurate or not? As long as everyone agrees to be inaccurate, after all, red, green, blue, orange, yellow? they're all the same! Just different wavelengths along the visible spectrum! Who cares? Some people can't even distinguish between blue and green! Why bother having all those words? It's so... so... doubleplusungood.
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  #188  
Old 06-25-2011, 05:44 PM
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@NYCIndie

I like that article. It made sense in my brain. I think poly does have a lot more room for interpretation and negotiation than swinging does. To me, swinging seems more like an activity, like tennis or ice skating. It just happens to involve a lot of fucking.

In some ways, words are very arbitrary and sometimes even irrelevant. But in something complex, I feel the need to attempt to define at least my experience so I can narrate it to others in way they understand. Perhaps we should attempt to pay more attention to poly or swinging as how it plays out in our lives rather than finding a standardized cookie cutter definition.
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  #189  
Old 06-25-2011, 07:36 PM
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The guy who wrote the article is giving a talk with his partner this Tuesday at my local poly organization, OpenLoveNY. I posted the announcement on the regional forum. Unfortunately, I can't go this Tuesday. This is the first Discussion I really wanted to attend, too! Waaaa.


His talk is called, "There's No Such Thing as Polyamory," and will be based on the article this excerpt comes from.

Full article is here: http://www.ejhs.org/volume14/NoSuch.htm
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  #190  
Old 09-29-2011, 02:56 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL4everu2 View Post
.................

So, sometimes, a person identifies as a "swinger" (like my wife and I did for a long time) yet lived as "poly".
I haven't been participating much for awhile but when this topic comes up in pulls me back in.

I am consistantly baffled by why people/public can't clearly get the difference between "swinging" and poly - and also that many people who self define (such as you two did) as 'swingers' often don't 'get it'.

A majority of people enjoy sex - including a little variety. A MINORITY of people can navigate any form of intimacy smoothly and an even smaller minority can imagine let alone navigate multiple intimacy. (the 'love part etc)

And why this seems so difficult to understand is simply beyond me...........

But most 'swingers' go in looking for sex and it's not long before the potential for intimacy rears it's head. Being unawares and unprepared just seems........I don't know.........extremely ignorant and naive in 2011 !

GS


Quote:
Originally Posted by TL4everu2 View Post
I have found that the "poly" crowd, tends to look down their noses at "swingers", as if they were "dirty" or something. Seems kinda "elitist" to me, but eh...What do I know?
People often find some reason to "look down their nose" at others. It's part & parcel of having insecurities.
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