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Old 03-13-2019, 08:37 PM
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River River is offline
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Default Dating & Sex

I'm deliberately leaving the topic title broad, but mostly what I'm wanting is to listen in (and chime in occasionally) as folks talk about questions like "Is it ever too soon to have sex while dating someone?".

I suspect the answer to that would both vary widely and would be qualified by considerations like, "It depends on what sort of relationship you're looking for".

But I have my first date tomorrow with a man I've been exchanging emails with for a month, almost daily. He's poly (!!!) and bi, like me... and that's a rare enough combo round here. He has a wife. She's slowly building her comfort zone with her husband's being newly poly. She's okay with her husband seeing guys (and actually wants to ease more slowly into him seeing other women). But the crucial info from my perspective is that we seem to be immensely compatible in all kinds of ways. And I mean, if we're to have a platonic friendship, we'd probably be wildly compatible that way. And as lovers … we'd probably be wildly compatible. We have a great deal in common, and we talk really well together. We both enjoy, and are comfortable with, the deeper end of the pool of intimacy (in the broadest, non-euphemistic sense). We like one another.

There are various reasons we took a whole month of emailing before actually meeting face to face. Part of it is he lives 50 miles away, so visiting isn't such a casual thing. Part of that is that his relationship with his wife has been deeply strained by his wanting out of the DADT arrangement which they had prior to my arrival in the picture. He wants an honest, poly way of life and he wants to be able to talk with her about what's going on with him in his life -- naturally. They came very near to parting during this month I've been emailing back and forth with my new friend. (Yes, I consider us to be friends though we've yet to meet.) He was busy and stressed with work, too. So I was just happy to be exchanging emails with this lovely, intelligent, kind and heartful person.

In our emails we shared that there is mutual attraction between us and have talked about it. So there's no secret there.

At some point I told him that I'd really like to cuddle with him. I said it would be clothed cuddling at first … and he said he'd prefer naked cuddling. And this sort of set the stage for a little talk between us about how it might be better not to get sexual right away with one another, as we continue to build our connection in the face-to-face, 3-D world of actual bodily presence.

I told him a couple of days ago that I have a history of "leaping" into sexual relationships, that I don't have much experience with the slow, gradual, dating thing. It's true. I'm a very tactile person.

I so rarely feel this kind of … this level of compatibility for the deeper dimensions of emotional / intellectual / spiritual intimacy that, naturally (I'm human!) I'm a little nervous about either screwing it up or missing an opportunity, otherwise.

He's a bi guy who has only had sexual encounters with men, never an actual relationship. He's enthusiastically said he'd love to kiss me and cuddle with me, both of which would be firsts for him with a man. He has also said he'd like to have a passionate, intimate, LTR with a man, and that I'm "the only candidate".... So naturally I'm not wanting to be leaping into anything -- and at the same time I don't want to do the opposite -- both of which can be out of the "flow" if the flow is being natural and spontaneous.

So I'm sharing some of this with you out of curiosity as to what folks might say.

I SO want to cuddle with him tomorrow, and maybe even kiss him! But I want physical contact. I also worry a little that such contact might be a "slippery slope" into too much, too soon. And I have so little experience with such things in my recent life that I feel slightly lost. The old traditions are rarely followed these days, and we're all rather weirdly on our own with these things.
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Last edited by River; 03-13-2019 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:50 PM
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Hi River,

I think communication is the key here, keep talking a lot with this guy, check in with him often about how he is feeling about things, as well as how you are feeling about things. Right now I get the impression you're inclined to make this first date a cuddle/kissing date, rather than a sex date. But you might change your mind about that. So communicate openly and often, he may change his mind too, or maybe he already wants this first date to be a sex date. Don't try to guess, just go ahead and ask him. And try not to overthink it, if it does turn out to be a sex date just enjoy that, who knows maybe the second date could be the cuddle/kissing date, or maybe that part could happen after the sex. The important thing is just to enjoy the relationship as it naturally progresses.

I hope it's a great first date, whatever shape it takes.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Hi River,

I think communication is the key here, keep talking a lot with this guy, check in with him often about how he is feeling about things, as well as how you are feeling about things. Right now I get the impression you're inclined to make this first date a cuddle/kissing date, rather than a sex date. But you might change your mind about that. So communicate openly and often, he may change his mind too, or maybe he already wants this first date to be a sex date. Don't try to guess, just go ahead and ask him. And try not to overthink it, if it does turn out to be a sex date just enjoy that, who knows maybe the second date could be the cuddle/kissing date, or maybe that part could happen after the sex. The important thing is just to enjoy the relationship as it naturally progresses.

I hope it's a great first date, whatever shape it takes.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
Good words, Kevin.

It's funny (slightly strange) to get sound advice about this from a straight guy -- so thanks for being understanding about us queer guys.

I just had another email round with him, sharing with him my latest unfoldment about it all. It's quite remarkable how direct and honest we both are with one another! And articulate!

In talk we're actually discussing the whole "going with the flow" thing, with him being open and also just wow open! "no prohibitions, no expectations" he just said! No one talks like that! LOL.

Nothing is more arousing to me than genuine intimacy! It's also a little scary, as I'm not so much used to it!
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Old 03-14-2019, 12:06 AM
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Re:
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"It's funny to get sound advice about this from a straight guy -- so thanks for being understanding about us queer guys."
Not a problem.
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Old 03-14-2019, 02:39 AM
sabrina8 sabrina8 is offline
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Hey!

I would hate to be a killjoy but beware. To me, the most important would be - does this wife of his live with him, does she know about you? Make sure she does, I would say. Because you are hyped up, I can literally see and recognize myself when I get enthusiastic about someone in what you wrote... He can tell you whatever he likes and make up all kinds of stories.

I am currently divorcing such a bi guy that I had an open DADT relationship with, meaning sometimes casual sex while we are away from each other. I was not ready about anything more, had a tough previous relationship and was not sure how would I feel with other regular lovers in the picture.

He started with the same phrase "No expectations" while he was seducing me and love bombing me in a very covert way. I would fall for what I thought was the depth of conversations, intellectual level, etc. Little did I know that when we started going out and getting serious (very fast), he had at least 3 other lovers. Then we got married and he kept trying to recycle exes that he was horrible to and kept fucking guys and girls. At the same time he guilt tripped me about me having sex with others while he was away (he asked me and I admitted).

I was feeling like the biggest whore ever and so bad, while he kept telling me he cannot like anyone but me. Then he actually told me he was fucking other people. Maybe he wanted to make me jealous but I wasn't. I was upset about other things. Then he sexually abused me and discarded me, but still tried to keep me for later.

Later, I found out about one of his guy lovers, to whom he said that his wife, being me is ok to not be exclusive. To another ex he was trying to have sex with, he said that we are in an open marriage because he cannot hide his sexual prefrences. I knew he is bi and yes, it was not really closed.
That was not our agreement though. I was in the dark about all the people, regulars and not, that he was sleeping with. Oh, and he turned out to have raped a girl too. All this with making a huge drama about me wanting to maybe have a new regular person and take it to the next level with being open and a lot of emotional manipulation. And I never hid it. Exactly this internal suffering had brought me to this forum initially.

Maybe I am a bit paranoid but I can totally picture him hunting for more new supply out there and I just hate the thought of him abusing and using other people, while presenting himself as the perfect bi, queer, feminist, musician guy (that was the mask for me, he adjusts for different people). That's how he starts bonding, mails and notes and conversations, appearing timid but yet kinky...

So, just be careful because there are such vile and horrible people out there. I don't want to discourage you with my story but people should protect their little hearts from these horrible predators! And it is so dangerous when you are already into a person because you want things to develop but really, ask a bunch of questions! Ask all the time! And date! Date for some time without sex, I would say. Sex is the reward if he is good and his "background check" turns to be ok. Really, because you are obv not looking for just sex and you are into him. Value your time, value yourself and always remember you are first and most important, even if he seems like the best guy in the world and a perfect match. Good luck!

Last edited by sabrina8; 03-14-2019 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sabrina8 View Post
Hey!

I would hate to be a killjoy but beware. To me, the most important would be - does this wife of his live with him, does she know about you? Make sure she does, I would say. Because you are hyped up, I can literally see and recognize myself when I get enthusiastic about someone in what you wrote... He can tell you whatever he likes and make up all kinds of stories.

I am currently divorcing such a bi guy that I had an open DADT relationship with, meaning sometimes casual sex while we are away from each other. I was not ready about anything more, had a tough previous relationship and was not sure how would I feel with other regular lovers in the picture.

He started with the same phrase "No expectations" while he was seducing me and love bombing me in a very covert way. I would fall for what I thought was the depth of conversations, intellectual level, etc. Little did I know that when we started going out and getting serious (very fast), he had at least 3 other lovers. Then we got married and he kept trying to recycle exes that he was horrible to and kept fucking guys and girls. At the same time he guilt tripped me about me having sex with others while he was away (he asked me and I admitted).

I was feeling like the biggest whore ever and so bad, while he kept telling me he cannot like anyone but me. Then he actually told me he was fucking other people. Maybe he wanted to make me jealous but I wasn't. I was upset about other things. Then he sexually abused me and discarded me, but still tried to keep me for later.

Later, I found out about one of his guy lovers, to whom he said that his wife, being me is ok to not be exclusive. To another ex he was trying to have sex with, he said that we are in an open marriage because he cannot hide his sexual prefrences. I knew he is bi and yes, it was not really closed.
That was not our agreement though. I was in the dark about all the people, regulars and not, that he was sleeping with. Oh, and he turned out to have raped a girl too. All this with making a huge drama about me wanting to maybe have a new regular person and take it to the next level with being open and a lot of emotional manipulation. And I never hid it. Exactly this internal suffering had brought me to this forum initially.

Maybe I am a bit paranoid but I can totally picture him hunting for more new supply out there and I just hate the thought of him abusing and using other people, while presenting himself as the perfect bi, queer, feminist, musician guy (that was the mask for me, he adjusts for different people). That's how he starts bonding, mails and notes and conversations, appearing timid but yet kinky...

So, just be careful because there are such vile and horrible people out there. I don't want to discourage you with my story but people should protect their little hearts from these horrible predators! And it is so dangerous when you are already into a person because you want things to develop but really, ask a bunch of questions! Ask all the time! And date! Date for some time without sex, I would say. Sex is the reward if he is good and his "background check" turns to be ok. Really, because you are obv not looking for just sex and you are into him. Value your time, value yourself and always remember you are first and most important, even if he seems like the best guy in the world and a perfect match. Good luck!
Thanks for your kind, loving concern and honest expression of experience -- and warnings -- Sabrina!

If my friend is a liar, I'll discover such soon enough. I doubt that he is, though. But he might be! I've been tricked (non in a romantic context) by one a-hole "friend" who turned out to be a narcissist once before, at least, and I'm not going to go down that trail again.

I'll not come to fully love this man without fully loving myself in it. Most of all.

So, thanks! Hugs!
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:25 AM
gerida gerida is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
I SO want to cuddle with him tomorrow, and maybe even kiss him! But I want physical contact. I also worry a little that such contact might be a "slippery slope" into too much, too soon. And I have so little experience with such things in my recent life that I feel slightly lost. The old traditions are rarely followed these days, and we're all rather weirdly on our own with these things.
Well, a very good told feelings.
My experience always: Just follow your feelings from the moment when you see him. Be honest and patient ... The answers will come soon ...
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:29 PM
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And as lovers … we'd probably be wildly compatible. We have a great deal in common, and we talk really well together. We both enjoy, and are comfortable with, the deeper end of the pool of intimacy (in the broadest, non-euphemistic sense). We like one another.
In regard to your question about when to explore sex while dating, it begins the minute you meet in person. Yes, writing and talking are good indicators of compatibility but you really don't know if someone has "good lovers" potential until you feel their physicality: the way they talk, the way they look in person, the way they kiss, the way they smell. Someone's scent is a huge factor in sexual compatibility and there is absolutely no way to know whether you respond sexually to someone's various body scents until you get in there with your nose. I'm not talking about genitals necessarily (although that is important) but simply how their skin smells, their breath mixed with yours, their sweat. A compatible lover smells divine and you just can't get enough. An incompatible scent - you can't fake liking it and it can be a deal breaker, no matter how great the conversation. So my recommendation to you is that even if you take it slow with the actual sex, pay close attention to the scent. This is something you can only start exploring when you spend time in person, but it's a big part of what makes a wonderful lover - or not.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:24 AM
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In regard to your question about when to explore sex while dating, it begins the minute you meet in person. Yes, writing and talking are good indicators of compatibility but you really don't know if someone has "good lovers" potential until you feel their physicality: the way they talk, the way they look in person, the way they kiss, the way they smell. Someone's scent is a huge factor in sexual compatibility and there is absolutely no way to know whether you respond sexually to someone's various body scents until you get in there with your nose. I'm not talking about genitals necessarily (although that is important) but simply how their skin smells, their breath mixed with yours, their sweat. A compatible lover smells divine and you just can't get enough. An incompatible scent - you can't fake liking it and it can be a deal breaker, no matter how great the conversation. So my recommendation to you is that even if you take it slow with the actual sex, pay close attention to the scent. This is something you can only start exploring when you spend time in person, but it's a big part of what makes a wonderful lover - or not.
There's not very much usual about he or I, so we had an unusual first date. I took the train to his town; we had breakfast with conversation (I barely got a chance to chew my food, as he kept asking me questions about things I'm interested in which I -- naturally -- can speak about eternally, and they're not matters with concise answers any way you slice it anyway. 'Course I asked him questions … and we were all abuzz with questions and attempts at answers.

Then we went to his place and he hung up the do not disturb sign (literally) on the door of his own house and we continued with Q & A and pretty soon we were dropping our clothes … so we could soak in his backyard hot tub (which was really not all that hot, closer to warm than hot, but warm enough). It was amazingly intimate conversation interspersed with philosophical dialogue. We both have that temperament.

Eventually there was some touching, and then his first kiss with a man he actually cares about, has some feeling for. And my first kiss with a man anything like this unique, amazing, happily strange fellow or anyone resembling him in any fashion. Man, the mold got broke immediately as soon as he was set free from it! More touching, soaking, kissing... and then we went to the room in the house which is the designated family OK place and had more naked touching, kissing, and you can guess what might also have happened. Yahtzee! We played Yahtzee! (Just kidding!) https://youtu.be/sQM7sN4NPz8

So we ended up spending nearly the entire day together. That's not a typical first date, I know. My apologies. I'll never do it again!

He wants more and so do I. I love his cute little belly.

His smell? I envy those of you with a typical or normal olfactory sense. Mine has always been iffy, at best -- but I do have some times and days when it's perhaps closer to normal. These periods of time are not frequent. I relish them. Lifelong allergies and an early broken nose and various factors have conspired against my olfactory sensitivity. But my sense of touch is Off The Charts! I'm just lucky that way.
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Last edited by River; 03-15-2019 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:27 PM
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It sounds like you both had a wonderful time, that is good to hear. And Yahtzee can be fun,
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