advice appreciated

I guess I'm really just looking for a non-biased opinion of my situation. I've been married for 21 years, we've been open in the past, and a few years ago when the kids were doing their own things, we reopened our marriage and started dating again.
Most of husband's interactions have been with facebook friends and one he met on OKC. I've met a few of them, which isn't a big deal, they all seem really nice and one in particular, H, has been just wonderful.
I haven't really made time to date, since I'm really trying to get my school program done.
The situation is that we have had a friend, R, for about 20 years. She has been in a monogamous relationship for the past 16.
Lately, she has suddenly started blowing me off, and when she called my husband while i was with him, he refused her phone call, so she started texting him, which he refused to look at. I started asking them both questions and both acted guilty and didn't give me direct answers. So- I know this part isn't cool on my part- I ended up looking at my husband's phone and she had been sending him pictures of herself in lingerie and posing with dildos. She wanted him to meet her at a park by my house alone and even asked if he had tinted windows on his car so they wouldn't be spotted- seriously? I have never even thought about needing tinted windows!
He ultimately didn't meet her, he said he didn't feel right since she told her boyfriend she was having dinner with me and him.
He's always said he would have sex with her if the opportunity presented itself, but he would never go out of his way. He said that my problem with the situation was that he and I didn't discuss boundaries.
They don't seem to understand why I'm feeling betrayed and cheated on since we're supposed to be "poly." They didn't want to tell me because I might be hurt. Maybe they're right, but to me sneaking around and hiding things isn't "poly." If you can't talk about it, don't do it.
Normally, if something like this would happen, I would talk to R about it, but I've blocked all communication from her since she only wants to know if I'm going to tell her boyfriend- who is basically her meal ticket, and wants me to get over it, and it's my fault because I wasn't supposed to look at husband's texts that he should have deleted, and if he had changed his code like she told him, I wouldn't have been able to see them in the first place.
It doesn't feel like something I should just "get over." I don't know if I'm overreacting, either.

Isn't poly without informed consent on your part. Or better still, as Galagirl puts it, "Joyous YES"

I don't think you are overreacting.

Normally, if something like this would happen, I would talk to R about it, but I've blocked all communication from her since she only wants to know if I'm going to tell her boyfriend- who is basically her meal ticket, and wants me to get over it, and it's my fault because I wasn't supposed to look at husband's texts that he should have deleted, and if he had changed his code like she told him, I wouldn't have been able to see them in the first place.

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Sounds like she wanted to cheat on her agreements with her BF with your husband as her cheating affair partner. She also wanted to hide it from you when you are poly. She could have just been up front like "I want to date your husband" and then you and husband could have said "Great! When you and BF Open, let us know. Until then, no thanks because we have an agreement not to get sucked into cheating things."

Though really just husband could have said "Great! You want to date me. We're poly. So let me know when you want to date me on the level and not in a cheating kind of way" on his own. Then told you "Hey, X is hitting on me but I told her to shoo because she wants me to be her cheating affair partner and that's not on the level. Just wanted to make you aware."

She did some poor behaviors and doesn't want to own it. She is minimizing her role and trying to blame shift on to you or your husband. Like you should not have looked at the phone or he should not have left the texts there to be looked at. How about HER not sending them in the first place?

Some "friend!" Leave her blocked.

As for husband...

He ultimately didn't meet her, he said he didn't feel right since she told her boyfriend she was having dinner with me and him.

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Well, he had the sense not to get more involved than he already was with the phone texting and stuff.

He said that my problem with the situation was that he and I didn't discuss boundaries.

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And here is opportunity to talk about them then. I suggest you two do that.

He is also blame shifting a bit. You cannot be a mind reader. He did not tell you he wants to discuss boundaries until AFTER something like this happens. If that is HIS problem he could have spoken up sooner.

YOUR problem seems to be all the sneaking around and hiding things.

They don't seem to understand why I'm feeling betrayed and cheated on since we're supposed to be "poly."

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Polyamory is not magically "cheater proof." One can cheat on their poly agreements. Polyamory is also not "everything and anything goes." I would be pretty pissed if my DH took up with my mother. Sheesh!

Were agreements broken here? Or is this a "I didn't realize it until this happened that we are not on the same page. There were some assumptions but not actual discussions. So we need to talk about some things here and get clear" kind of situation?

They didn't want to tell me because I might be hurt.

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IME, people who say "I didn't tell you because I didn't want you to be hurt" are making excuse. It's more like "I know this would hurt you if you knew I was doing it. So I'm not gonna tell you so I don't have to deal with your hurt and I don't have to change my behavior."

It's not behaving in a forthright way.

Maybe they're right, but to me sneaking around and hiding things isn't "poly." If you can't talk about it, don't do it.

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You prefer things on the up and up and discussed openly. No sneaking around and hiding things. Maybe you also have "dating friends is fine if you tell me up front but no taking up with cheater-y people" as a preference.

Clarify these things with him and ask him... does he agree with you? Is he able to do that moving forward in future -- be more up front and not take up with cheater-y people?

He may take the view that he isn't cheating on his side because on his side you guys are poly. She's the one cheating on her side and that side is her problem.

While you may take the view that anyone involved in a cheater-y thing is part of the cheater-y thing and equally responsible for co-creating the situation.

Get clear on this.

While at it, you can talk about your "messy people" lists. There's enough people in the world to date without going after people who would make a mess should things go awry. Some are permanent like my mom or my boss. DH doesn't need to date them. I don't need to lose my job if he and my boss break up ugly and boss takes it out on me. And mom is just ew. Just like I wouldn't date his boss or his parents.

Some are temporary -- like don't take a kid's teacher while kid is their student. Once kid moves on they become "date-able" again. But if DH or I date kid's teacher, and there's a messy break up, kid doesn't need to pay the price while still their student.

In this case? Some friend looking to have a cheating affair? That's a messy person to get involved with. So walk away and tell them to cut it out if they are sending naughty pix or whatever through the phone. Block them, give spouse the heads up why, and move on. No need to get sucked into that mess.

I'm sorry you deal in this. I would say move things forward with your husband. Pick and choose your battles but definitely clarify boundaries and tell him you prefer being told things straight up.

Galagirl

I would definitely feel betrayed. I don't see the cheating part. At least your husband told her no because of the lying so there's that.

What are your boundaries? Is he supposed to tell you every little thing? No involvement with friends?

Your friend's actions are very suspicious though. Maybe she had plans to cowgirl him away.

Hi Cami242,

I would say that your husband and R definitely did you wrong. It is commonly argued that poly is defined as something done with knowledge and consent, whereas this was done without your knowledge, much less consent. But then, it doesn't matter whether something "counts as poly." If it's wrong, it's wrong, poly or otherwise.

I hope you and your husband can resolve this situation and start the healing process. But that can only happen if he can admit that he did wrong. As for R, I have my doubts that that friendship can be saved. It makes me sad to say it.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

A question for the general audience --

This feels like about the seventh time in a month we've seen some variation on this scenario.

Does anyone know where all these sad gomers are getting the idea that this sort of bullshit is "polyamory"?

Ravenscroft said:

A question for the general audience --

This feels like about the seventh time in a month we've seen some variation on this scenario.

Does anyone know where all these sad gomers are getting the idea that this sort of bullshit is "polyamory"?

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What makes it "not polyamory" for you? Because things didn't work out perfectly?

Um...

The LYING?

The SUBTERFUGE?

The BLAME SHIFTING?

Have you considered perhaps reading a thread before responding to a post concerning that thread...?

Or, if I miss the mark with that comment, maybe YOU could explain how it is that the OP's dumpster fire ACTUALLY IS polyamory.

Basically, everyone in the scenario is reaching for Epic Fail. (Sorry, Cami242, but though your suspicions may have been borne out, checking his phone signifies a REALLY high degree of distrust, like GAME OVER level.)

vinsanity0 said:

I don't see the cheating part.

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The part where both husband and friend act guilty on being asked rather than answer honestly.

Ravenscroft said:

A question for the general audience --

This feels like about the seventh time in a month we've seen some variation on this scenario.

Does anyone know where all these sad gomers are getting the idea that this sort of bullshit is "polyamory"?

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Laundering ethics.

Cheating is so much easier than being honest, but then being known as a cheater is so much harder than being a cool polyamorist... An addiction to taking the easy way and embracing every dodge in sight.

What anamikanon said. ^

Also... for those who are confused or disputing it, here is where I see the situation with R and the OP's husband as borderline cheating behaviour:

Cami242 said:

The situation is that we have had a friend, R, for about 20 years. She has been in a monogamous relationship for the past 16.

Lately, she has suddenly started blowing me off, and when she called my husband while i was with him, he refused her phone call, so she started texting him, which he refused to look at.

I started asking them both questions and both acted guilty and didn't give me direct answers. So- I know this part isn't cool on my part- I ended up looking at my husband's phone and she had been sending him pictures of herself in lingerie and posing with dildos. She wanted him to meet her at a park by my house alone and even asked if he had tinted windows on his car so they wouldn't be spotted- seriously? I have never even thought about needing tinted windows!

He ultimately didn't meet her, he said he didn't feel right since she told her boyfriend she was having dinner with me and him.

to me sneaking around and hiding things isn't "poly." If you can't talk about it, don't do it.

Normally, if something like this would happen, I would talk to R about it, but I've blocked all communication from her since she only wants to know if I'm going to tell her boyfriend- who is basically her meal ticket, and wants me to get over it, and it's my fault because I wasn't supposed to look at husband's texts that he should have deleted, and if he had changed his code like she told him, I wouldn't have been able to see them in the first place.
It doesn't feel like something I should just "get over.".

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Not only is/was R a long-time close friend and confidante of the OP, (so she could presumably have expected better, more "on the level" behaviour from this woman than all this cloak and dagger stuff), it also sounds as if R is cheating on her own boyfriend.

Nowhere does it say R and/or her bf are polyamorous, swingers or have any kind of non-monogamous agreement in place, so I can only assume by her behaviour and choices that she was attempting to some kind of cowgirl manoeuvre or to engage in some secretive shared sex with Cami's husband, since she didn't want either Cami, her own boyfriend, or anyone in their community to know about her attempted seduction or proposed meeting with OP's husband.

Thanks everyone for the input. I would have responded sooner and to individuals, but I've been busy with midterms.
R and her boyfriend are mostly monogamous with occasional threesomes. They have slept with some (in my book) questionable people. So if my husband did want to sleep with her, I'd be concerned about safety and precautions.
I honestly believe the main reason they called off their meeting was because he had been called in to cover a shift at work and ended up working 16 hrs. on 3 hours of sleep. The fact he felt uncomfortable about her lying to her boyfriend was probably one of the reasons he thought that sounded the best. They had talked about rescheduling.
I don't need details about what my husband does with whom. I also don't care about the sexting.
I do care that my 'friend' lied to my face about what was going on. She had started to refuse to make or follow through on plans with me- made excuses to get off the phone, said she was super busy doing things at her boyfriend's store etc. Meanwhile, she was calling and texting husband and he was suddenly refusing her calls when I was around and claiming he didn't know what she wanted or why she wanted to talk to him when she was too busy to talk to me. I even asked her at one point if I did something to piss her off, and she said she was just really busy with the shop.

Husband had already told me at some point that he would sleep with her if the opportunity came up, so I don't know why he couldn't have just said, "She wants to hook up with me and doesn't want anyone to know." I've asked him several times and he just said he doesn't know why.

I don't want to be the idiot on Thanksgiving to be obliviously asking about how work is going and all the extra hours they've been putting in while they are giving each other "we got away with it" looks behind my back.

Thanks again to everyone for your input, and helping me validate my feelings. Everyone I know IRL is either conservative/monogamous or my husband's friends.
I've asked my husband to take some time to figure out why he felt the need to be deceptive. We've had issues in the past and the whole "don't tell, won't hurt" thing either needs to stop.
I also now need to find some friends who are trustworthy. My main focus for now, though, is getting through this school program.

Re (from Ravenscroft):

"Does anyone know where all these sad gomers are getting the idea that this sort of bullshit is 'polyamory?'"

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The definition doesn't clearly/easily disqualify "this sort of bullshit," as shown elsewhere:

"I propose something brief, to-the-point, & good enough as a 'pocket edition' version, hence --

Polyamory is the demonstrated ability to maintain multiple emotionally intimate relationships simultaneously.

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I consider this to be something like the 'top line' or 'lede' or maybe 'abstract' of a more complete definition. There is an absolute minimum of question-begging words ('emotionally intimate').

The 'second tier' stuff would fold in concepts like honesty (relentless) & communication (blunt & constant) & self-awareness. Each of these needs not only definition, but some supportive terminology that ALSO must be clarified.

Once you dig into the second tier, you're moving past mere definition & well into best practices, 'how-to' material. In other words, it's no longer 'a definition.'"

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Sounds to me like this sort of bullshit falls under the "best practices/how-to" category.

anamikanon said:

The part where both husband and friend act guilty on being asked rather than answer honestly.

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The friend is obviously not poly and has no idea how things work. Cat and I went out separately one night. I ran into a mutual friend of ours. She and I had always had a flirty relationship. So we hung out. I explained to her how Cat and I were now poly and free to have relationships with others. She didn't really get it, but we ended up making out. It was pretty awesome. When I left, she asked that I not tell Cat. Of course I did and of course Cat was fine with it. The point is our friend felt weird because she is mono. The OP's friend felt weird too. Maybe that friend felt it was cheating, but that doesn't make it so.

The OP never answered what the agreement was with her husband. He certainly screwed up but I am under the impression he and the friend didn't actually do anything. Maybe he didn't take it seriously enough to think it warranted a mention. Obviously he has some ethics or he wouldn't have turned down the invitation for a tryst.

For Ravenscroft- the fact that I did end up caving in and looking at husband and R's texts didn't sit well with me, either. I feel more upset at myself about doing it than my husband does. He has always said he doesn't care if I go through his phone and still maintains that he doesn't care if I look. I have never wanted to, until then. To me, the fact I did it, is something that was a major turning point. It is part of his whole "just get over it already" attitude.

I'm not denouncing you as "a bad person" or something such. Seems like someone admits to that gaffe every week or two -- not the first nor last.

However, it DOES demonstrate the degree of frustration/alienation you are feeling, to willfully violate a boundary in a manner that would have bothered you if (say) a friend admitted to the act.

It sounds to me as if YOU would have little problem being in a polyamorous network... but at present those closest to you really suck. Stick to your standards, don't get dragged down; maybe the other two will try to meet your level rather than taking the "easy" Monogamist path.