My limited experience with jealousy

Jealousy is a topic I have a difficult time discussing with many people I know, especially those who are trying to wrap their minds around poly, seeing from a place of complete mono thinking and behavior. One of these recent conversations has me thinking...

In my poly group, the main quad, there are two women and two men. I've got another man outside of that but I'll leave him out of this for now. The other woman in the group is STUNNING. I mean she is utterly and completely gorgeous in many ways that I am most certainly not. She's curvy, sensual and feminine, to my lean small chested and geeky. She's fire to my earth. And I'm not jealous of her in the slightest. Why? Because she is also one of my partners, albeit not quite as often as the men are, but we are familiar and comfortable and affectionate. Even if she gets more time with one or the other or both of the men than I do, it would be because I have many other obligations in that timeframe and I'm simply happy that the ones I love are not lonely when I cannot be with them. There is zero jealousy there for me, because I feel secure.

In contrast, I had an unfortunate flash-in-the-pan...thing...wasn't even quite a relationship, last summer. I was in a learning phase, no idea what I wanted or was doing, and I hopped into bed with this guy very quickly. The sex was fantastic and my mind blazed up with a bonfire of NRE in short order. Which scared him off, or maybe he got bored, or maybe whatever. It doesn't matter what his motives were, he pushed me away and it hurt and confused me. I couldn't get any straight answers out of him on anything. He still says he misses me sometimes, but he doesn't want to see me. I'm trying to forget him, haven't seen him since September. But to the point...I felt jealousy. Anger. I imagined he was with other women, even though I had no claim to him or reason to think he was or wasn't. It shouldn't have mattered what he did. But I was being played and both scarcity and insecurity were in full force. I didn't even have a target to be jealous of, and I was jealous. Of anyone who had his time, when I could not.

This is a weird concept to explain to people I know. And it makes me feel like I'm...different. I feel things I shouldn't, and I don't feel things that I'm supposed to, according to people I talk to in person and online. It can be hard to sort out.

I've found jealousy can be a response in some sort of inner emotional struggle (like insecurity or fear of loss). It's not *really* about what the partner actually did - it's about the reaction triggered internally to what they did.

But sometimes, jealousy is triggered when something is wrong with the relationship, or with the partner themselves. It can be a really strong hint that things are awry.

I suspect you knew something was wrong with the relationship with flash-in-the-pan guy. He was withholding the actual truth from you, he was avoiding you or being defensive. Feeling jealousy when you KNOW in your bones that something is wrong is not uncommon at all.

And of course, jealousy can be an unholy mix of these two 'triggers' as well. You might have been both triggered by some internal pain and well aware flash-in-the-pan guy was full of shit.

You're not a freak. You're not wrong. You're feeling everything you should, as freakin' unpleasant as that can be.

I'm sorry you had to deal with a user. That is not fun.

It shouldn't have mattered what he did.

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His behavior does matter. Could stop telling yourself it did not. He is not treating you in the way you like to be treated.

• I was being played (he did not tell you up front he was looking for casual sex.)
• After he got the sex? " he pushed me away and it hurt and confused me."
• When you wanted clarification and/or apology? "I couldn't get any straight answers out of him on anything."
• He still says he misses me sometimes, but he doesn't want to see me. (mixed messages)

Sounds like what you are struggling to cope with ANGER.

FWIW, if you are angry at yourself for not vetting him more closely before sharing sex? Call it a learning experience and vet more carefully next time.

If you are angry at him for treating you poorly? I think you being angry is a reasonable response to being treated poorly!!! You are not broken.

Why internalize it like there is something wrong with you? There isn't. You are MAD at being treated poorly. That is ok to feel.

Galagirl

What makes me feel weird is that I tell a friend about my poly group and she says she would be jealous because she needs her man to be all hers, and she would think that he was comparing her with the other woman, or the other woman was trying to take him from her.

In instances where a woman I was also close to and had a positive relationship with, had a thing with a male partner of mine, whether she and I had a meta relationship or were actually partners too, as long as we're cool I'm not competitive or jealous.

It's only when I feel rejected, or "not good enough," especially if he won't tell me why he's acting as he is... I also felt that way early in my involvement in the BDSM community. I wanted a Dominant man. Badly. I tried a bit of a search, a bit of dating, and it didn't pan out. I went to parties and saw a lot of subs who were more generously built than I, and concluded that men didn't want what I am. I got very insecure and depressed about it. I put myself down.

I can do more harm to myself than any rival.

Of course that was nonsense, the people I would find and love, that all just had to come together in its own way and time.

But my friend, she might say that I am capable of polyamory because I "don't get jealous." That isn't true. It just doesn't necessarily happen under the same circumstances that it does for her. And I'm not sure why that is.

What makes me feel weird is that I tell a friend about my poly group and she says she would be jealous because she needs her man to be all hers, and she would think that he was comparing her with the other woman, or the other woman was trying to take him from her.

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That's not weird sounding to me.

She's allowed to have her preferences for her romances, her own way of thinking, her own triggery things. You are allowed to have yours. They do not have to be the same.

It's only when I feel rejected, or "not good enough," especially if he won't tell me why he's acting as he is..

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IME, assholes aren't going to be honest and go "Hey! I'm an asshole! I use people! Come have sex with me so i can use you!" Your expectations for asshole to be honest? Or feel remorse for asshole-y behavior later? Not a realistic expectation. They don't care.

I can do more harm to myself than any rival.

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If you know you are in the habit of putting yourself down, and putting your body shape down, and taking blame when you don't deserve any? You could guard against auto pilot thinking habits.

In this situation you could take a few steps back to evaluate what happened. Did this guy treat you how you want to be treated? No. He chose to treat you poorly because he chose to treat you poorly. All on him. Nothing you did or did not do -- because ultimately he is responsible for his behavior choices.

All you can do moving forward is vet a potential more carefully to screen out the jerks better. Take more time.

But my friend, she might say that I am capable of polyamory because I "don't get jealous." That isn't true. It just doesn't necessarily happen under the same circumstances that it does for her. And I'm not sure why that is.

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Because you are different people with different preferences for your romance shapes and different triggers. No need to over think it.

You and your friend are allowed to be different, unique people.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

His behavior does matter. Could stop telling yourself it did not. He is not treating you in the way you like to be treated.

• I was being played (he did not tell you up front he was looking for casual sex.)
• After he got the sex? " he pushed me away and it hurt and confused me."
• When you wanted clarification and/or apology? "I couldn't get any straight answers out of him on anything."
• He still says he misses me sometimes, but he doesn't want to see me. (mixed messages)

Sounds like what you are struggling to cope with ANGER.

FWIW, if you are angry at yourself for not vetting him more closely before sharing sex? Call it a learning experience and vet more carefully next time.

If you are angry at him for treating you poorly? I think you being angry is a reasonable response to being treated poorly!!! You are not broken.

Why internalize it like there is something wrong with you? There isn't. You are MAD at being treated poorly. That is ok to feel.

Galagirl

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Honestly that particular situation was...complicated. He was, I guess, sort of a rebound for me, my first passionate fling after getting free of my marriage. I got too emotionally invested too quickly. I can't regret giving up the sex too easily because the sex was really, really good and it helped me learn the path I needed to head down and what I needed. I'm angry at him for saying a bunch of nonsense and never the truth, which I'll never know, regarding his distancing of me. He said he was a severe introvert. Then he said he was a sociopath. He always had an excuse for disregarding my needs and wishes. And I put up with it because he was addictively good in bed. I felt like a heroin addict, seriously, continuing to see him. So it's good that it's over. The last time he said he missed me, I told him that was a dumb thing to say because he hasn't wanted to see me in months. So if he misses me, that's his fault, and no concern of mine. But when I think of him, there is something in my mind/heart/spirit that growls at the idea of him, the memory of him. I am rarely angry...at anyone about anything...in his case, it is a defense. Because if he ever directly invites me to come back, I really need to be able to say NO.

And yes, there was an element of jealousy. I'd see him on OKC and be jealous because he was clearly trying to get more women. I'd see other women (who might just be friends, cousins, who knows what) comment on his stuff, and I'd feel jealous. He'd tell me he had friends over for dinner and I'd be jealous because he had nothing to give to me.

It was the rejection and scarcity that gave me those nasty feels.

I'm just kind of...analyzing in retrospect now. I don't feel like the details of all that matter, it's in the past. I like to understand myself. Why I respond to things the way I do, how it differs from what others seem to feel, etc. Just an exercise in self-awareness here.

Oh and that "Coping with the Lows Caused by N.R.E." thread has a lot of insight that is helpful to me, too.

Though I'm in pretty good shape with all of this right now. I have, as I put it months ago, "stabbed the imps of insecurity with metaphorical fondue forks."

If this is an exercise in self-awareness here?

I think when someone outright tells you "I am a sociopath" you could cut him off and run for the hills!

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

If this is an exercise in self-awareness here?

I think when someone outright tells you "I am a sociopath" you could cut him off and run for the hills!

Galagirl

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I was already not seeing him anymore when he said that. He still sends me messages on Facebook occasionally. But I could never tell if he said things like that (and other equally alarming stuff) on purpose to keep women from getting attached to him and at a distance, or what.

Really the biggest red flag was also one of the strongest draws. I'm usually very good at people reading. I have friends who bring new love interests to meet me for my impression of them because I can get a general sense of what kind of person they are very easily and I'm usually right. This man...I could not read. I rarely meet anyone so puzzling. That both scared me and fascinated me.

He should not have had such power over my feelings and I don't know why he did, really. Maybe I was just particularly vulnerable at that point.

Hi Spork,

I think people get jealous because of some need they have that isn't being met.

Re (from OP):

"I felt jealousy. Anger. I imagined he was with other women, even though I had no claim to him or reason to think he was or wasn't."

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I guess that makes sense.

Regards,
Kevin T.

You seem to recognize he's toxic for you to be around.

He still sends me messages on Facebook occasionally.

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You seem to recognize reading his OKC and FB stuff triggers you. You could unfriend and block him from all those networks.

But I could never tell if he said things like that (and other equally alarming stuff) on purpose to keep women from getting attached to him and at a distance, or what.

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In practical term? No difference to me.


vs


Either way? Still NOT HEALTHY behavior on his part. And you seem to recognize his behaviors are alarming.

So in your own behavior? You could cut him out. Disconnect the networks, change phone numbers, email, etc. Block access to you and make you un-askable.

Because if he ever directly invites me to come back, I really need to be able to say NO.

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Correct. And cutting off access to you is a good start on that!

Galagirl

You are right about the unfriending/blocking of him on Facebook. But for me personally that is a step...and it's one I have not been prepared to take yet.

Why?

It's a good question. I'm not sure. Maybe I don't want him to think he can get to me, just by existing. Maybe I just want to be able to stand tall in my own space saying, "I'm over here. Being awesome with my life and stuff. Living large, and not diminished by the likes of you." I want to be strong enough to exist in a world that has him in it, with no discomfort. I think keeping him on my Facebook is about that more than anything.

I'm not worried about him. I have bigger issues by far than him and Facebook and whatever. I'm just trying to understand the pieces that came into play to trigger those feels. I suppose I should have asked others to relate their own processing of jealousy if they were willing. It seems I need to learn better control over my emotions...and while I can conceptualize controlling what one says or does, regardless of what one feels...I cannot comprehend the ability to REALLY control what one feels.

This applies to other emotions and situations as well.

while I can conceptualize controlling what one says or does, regardless of what one feels...I cannot comprehend the ability to REALLY control what one feels.

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I think one simply experiences some feelings. You don't "control" them. One controls behavior in response to those feelings. That IS controllable.

Don't like a feeling? Change the behavior so new feelings can ensue.

So far I am hearing...

I'm just trying to understand the pieces that came into play to trigger those feels.

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I think you are overthinking it.

• You hopped into bed too fast with a user-y guy that you did not know was a user. (your behavior)
• He used you and discarded. (his behavior)
• You came to realize he was a user. You felt angry at being used. (your feelings that ensue after all these behaviors happened.)

• You do not want to let him go at this time, despite his behaviors being alarming to you. So you do not do letting go behaviors like cut him off your networks. (your action behavior)
• You read your network things that are connect to him on OKC and FB (your action behavior)
• You continue to feel weird, confusing, angry things in connection to what you read. (feelings that ensue)

I think that is about it.

I think when you are ready to cut him out, you will. That will be a new behavior. In time the detachment process will set in. You will probably feel better. New feelings will get to ensue.

Galagirl

Re (from Spork):

"I suppose I should have asked others to relate their own processing of jealousy if they were willing."

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The processing that has worked for me has been: trying to identify what need I had that wasn't being met.

Spork said:

I cannot comprehend the ability to REALLY control what one feels.

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You have the ability to greatly influence how you feel by being aware of the thoughts you're choosing to think. Behavior doesn't bring on feelings, thoughts (about anything, including behavior) bring on feelings. What you're thinking is (for most people) largely a matter of habit and what you've been told or shown is a "typical" response to a behavior, but what you're thinking can be your choice and you can choose to create new and much better feeling habits of thought. You're never in bondage to your feelings about the behavior of others, even though many people see it that way. You always have the choice to think a different way, to see a different perspective and thus, to have different and much better feelings about anything. The way people think and feel is largely a matter of habit and if you know it's possible to change your habit of thought, you can. You're never dependent (although it may feel that way) on the pleasing behavior of others to feel better about a situation.

Spork said:

Maybe I don't want him to think he can get to me, just by existing. Maybe I just want to be able to stand tall in my own space saying, "I'm over here. Being awesome with my life and stuff. Living large, and not diminished by the likes of you." I want to be strong enough to exist in a world that has him in it, with no discomfort. I think keeping him on my Facebook is about that more than anything.

I'm not worried about him. I have bigger issues by far than him and Facebook and whatever.

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I'd advise you to first be honest with yourself and say that you care very much indeed about what this man thinks of you. Before you can stand tall and not feel diminished by his presence, first allow yourself to feel what you're actually feeling, which is diminished by his presence. That's OK. Been there plenty of times myself! You don't want to slap a happy face sticker over your empty gas gauge. Take a good, honest look at where you truly are, then work on up to "standing tall" from there. It's a gradual process, but a gradual process is a stable and lasting change. If not looking at his Facebook stuff feels better to you right now, don't look. Don't keep him as a "friend" just to get a false sense that you're further along than you actually are. Be where you are for real. That is standing tall.

A few thoughts...

• the thread seems to have drifted away from "jealousy," or is that just me?
• in fact, going over it again, I can't figure out what the question is.
• anyway, clinging in any fashion to someone who hasn't treated me in a manner I desired is unhealthy & therefore someone I should cut myself off from. Note that I am not thus demonizing that person -- heavens know, I might be the jerk!! -- but simply being emotionally sane enough to recognize that the interaction is not healthy for me.
• demonizing is an interesting tactic: rather than me summoning the intelligence of a pigeon & walking away, it's THEIR FAULT that I'm standing there like a fool. It's my prejudice, sure, but while this might fly in the cloud-cuckooland that is monogamy, I figure such (non-)reasoning has no place at all in poly.
• maybe I missed something, but what's wrong with saying, "hey baby, let's screw each other senseless?" & why's it automatically equated to being "a user"?
• calling oneself a sociopath is about as clinically astute as calling someone else codependent (echoing it is even MORE silly), & I suspect nothing but a superficial "bad boy" ploy of saying "it's not about you, it's about me" without sounding like a line from a bad "romance" film.

I can empathize!

Hi Spork!
I can certainly empathize with you. Currently I am in a situation where I feel that I am being treated poorly by my wife. She says that I am her primary but gives me no attention nor do I get any sort of priority of position, which was a rule we established (Primary's would always come first). At first I chalked a lot of it up to NRE but even as the NRE has faded, I still find myself being treated poorly. This makes me jealous as hell!
My advice to you is to really take a deep look at yourself. Jealousy isn't necessarily an emotion per se but rather a reaction to another emotion or several emotions. In my case, I found that, as GalaGirl said, the root of my jealousy is fear. I fear the loss of my position as primary, I fear that the same motivations that made my wife violate or primary's first rule will also motivate her to leave me. Now, I am still dealing with my situation but what I will tell you is that once I realized I had these fears, I was able to more clearly assess the situation. I could ask myself questions like, "do I really think she is going to leave me?" Ultimately, I am able to look at things from a different perspective. I think one of the most empowering results of this is that I don't feel like I am at fault. I'm not pusher her away.
In your case I think there is a fear of not being normal? But what is normal, really? Society would say that because you are poly that you are not normal. Do you feel abnormal because you are poly? Doesn't sound like you are. Sounds like you are very secure and well adjusted. You are not a freak because some asshole stole your power. Look inside and find the root emotion. Doing this will go a long way towards helping you take your power back! Good luck!

The thread definitely got tangented...

Thing is, and I know this is hard to understand because I felt the need to explain that situation in detail, THAT guy really isn't that important to me or making me feel big feelings (positive, negative, or otherwise) in the here and now. I bring it up not because of investment, but because at this level of distance I now feel more comfortable taking my memory of those emotions, placing it under a logical microscope, and dissecting it...picking it apart to try and understand what I felt, why, and the means to avoid such unpleasantness in the future.

I have far, far bigger fish to fry in terms of real problems and issues at the moment. Oddly, analyzing things of the past that don't bubble up my emotions is...a welcome distraction. That's the best way to put it. I've also contemplated other past relationships where I felt jealousy and examined those situations. But it's hard for me to give them much weight in my contemplations because they were a long, long time ago (when I was just a teenager, and therefore also subject to a lot of teen angst and whatnot.)

In my adult life, that man was the only one who sparked feelings akin to jealousy. And it was more along the lines of a realization that I simply could not have him. He was cutting me off and pushing me away, in the peak of my own NRE feels, and it sucked. Whatever he wanted, I wasn't it. It took months (and better relationships coming into my life) for me to accept that this is OK...everyone just isn't into everyone else. There does not need to be a reason, he doesn't owe me one, and it doesn't mean I'm less of a person for it.

As for why I keep him around on my Facebook, ultimately, the occasional little reminder of his existance gives me practice in that growly "begone with ye!" feeling which makes me feel more confident that if he really did make an effort to get me to come back and see him again, I'd be able to do the right thing and ignore him or say no to him. For a time, I did feel helpless, like I knew he was hurting me, confusing me, and doing things that were kind of red-flaggish...yet his company was intoxicating and I just WANTED it, so I'd take whatever he'd give. That was months ago. And me saying here that I felt that way shouldn't make everyone jump in and go, "because you admit you felt that way means you STILL feel that way" because...I don't. I remember what that felt like. It doesn't feel that way, today.

Inthedark.... You live in Fountain! I live in Security-Widefield. What's up?? There is a Poly meetup thingie at Voodoo tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I'm going. Ever been to Voodoo? I love the place. Anyhow, HI!

You felt this then:

But to the point...I felt jealousy. Anger. I imagined he was with other women, even though I had no claim to him or reason to think he was or wasn't. It shouldn't have mattered what he did. But I was being played and both scarcity and insecurity were in full force. I didn't even have a target to be jealous of, and I was jealous. Of anyone who had his time, when I could not.

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And you seem to answer your own question for what you can do to minimize the envy feelings when you are wanting the attention his new partner (real or imagined) has from him.

In my adult life, that man was the only one who sparked feelings akin to jealousy. And it was more along the lines of a realization that I simply could not have him. He was cutting me off and pushing me away, in the peak of my own NRE feels, and it sucked. Whatever he wanted, I wasn't it. It took months (and better relationships coming into my life) for me to accept that this is OK...everyone just isn't into everyone else. There does not need to be a reason, he doesn't owe me one, and it doesn't mean I'm less of a person for it.

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Galagirl