Two new connections -- how to proceed?

Hello everybody,

Back in February, I introduced myself on here in this thread.
http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73315

I also decided through the discussions on that thread and subsequent reflection that I do not identify strongly as polyamorous or as monogamous, but rather that I am about equally comfortable with both of these styles of relationships, seeing advantages and disadvantages to each. Also, I think(though I'm not certain) that I'm at a point in my life where I'd like to be developing at least one deep and lasting romantic connection, regardless of whether it is monogamous or polyamorous. Currently, I'm single.

Last summer, I briefly found myself simultaneously dating two people who identified as polyamorous or at least friendly to open relationships, but I didn't get to a very deep relationship with either, and stopped dating both of them. (With one there was very little sexual attraction, and the other was very busy and didn't have time for me.)

After a few months of lots of lame first dates and no second dates, I find myself in a successful position again. In each of the last two weekends, I have met a different woman with whom I had mutual attraction and chemistry and whom I enjoyed spending time with socially, and I expect to see both of them again. (Perhaps it's not a coincidence that I met both these people within about a week of each other. I think I have reached a point in my life where I'm more confident meeting people, and I also started trying new venues for meeting people that I hadn't tried much before.)

The first woman, D, whom I met a week ago, is currently in a poly relationship and has a "partner." She has had over time various "friends with benefits" but no other "partners" (her word choices -- we didn't discuss what they mean in detail). However, she's open to having a second partner in the future. But she's fairly busy now, so I don't think such a thing would likely develop soon, though it's hard to say for certain. I felt a strong connection with her on an intellectual level. We went on a long walk, had a nice conversation followed by an extremely nice kissing session, and now we have plans to hang out again next weekend (two weeks after we first met). D shares my atheistic world-view, and based on my limited initial impression, we may be very compatible in terms of kinky interests.

Meanwhile, yesterday, I met somebody else, C, with whom I felt a strong mutual attraction. We ended up hanging out for several hours in a group setting, and then I invited her back to my place, where she spent the night and we had a great time. (We fooled around sexually but didn't go all the way). I really enjoyed spending time with her and felt very sexually attracted, and we share a similar/compatible sense of humor. On the other hand, her religious beliefs seem to be quite different from mine (though I avoided discussing them in depth), and she seems on first impression to be pretty vanilla as far as kink interests go, though again we didn't discuss this much. Before she left, C and I made plans to see each other again, though we didn't set the details. I told her that I already have a date scheduled next weekend (Sunday) with somebody else (D), and I hoped she was comfortable with that. She thanked me for my honesty about that and said that it was okay with her. However, I didn't discuss polyamory with her, and I'm not sure whether she would be comfortable with a polyamorous arrangement -- my guess is that she has no experience with polyamory. In response to my half-joking suggestion that we have a threesome with somebody, she said, "I don't share," although opposition to a threesome doesn't necessarily mean opposition to polyamory. I have trouble figuring out how to bring up the issue of polyamory with people who seem to come from a monogamous background, especially those, like C, with whom I might possibly be comfortable pursuing a monogamous relationship. I've found in the past that just mentioning the possibility of polyamory to a monogamously-inclined person whom I'm dating can make them negatively disposed towards me, especially if the conversation is not handled with the utmost care and tact.

So now, I'm just trying to figure out what to do next. I'd kind of like to invite C to hang out again next weekend on Friday, before I see D, because I feel like if I don't see her for two weeks she might get an impression that I'm not so interested in her. On the other hand, I'd kind of like to see D again before I see C, so that I can get a better idea of where things might be going with D and have a better idea what to tell C about her. And in general, I'm trying to figure out if and when to talk to C about polyamory (as opposed to just maintaining the dominant cultural assumption that I'm dating two people and will necessarily choose between them if things get serious). Again, this may be affected strongly by what develops with D in our next meeting -- if I feel there's strong potential for a deep connection with D, then I'd be less willing to date C monogamously, and therefore more likely to want to discuss polyamory with her C. I'm less concerned about what I'd tell D -- I would be comfortable being completely straightforward with her about everything.

After writing all this, I think my inclination would be to tell C that I really like her a lot but I'd like to take things slowly, and accordingly I'd like to see her again in two weeks. She had said to me that she didn't want to move too quickly, so it seems to be in line with what she wants as well. But I'm really not sure whether this is the best course of action, as I really do like her and wouldn't want her to lose interest in me, and want to see her again soon.

These early stages of dating are so tricky and full of uncertainty. I had one fairly long relationship in the past that lasted a couple years. I miss having that kind of stability and deep closeness, and want to find it again, but it's harder now that I've lost some of my youthful naivete and feel pickier about what sort of person and relationship I'm looking for.

So . . . what do you all advise? I'd be happy to hear your general impressions of the situation, and I also have two particular questions.

1) Should I invite C to hang out again before I see D, or not until after?

2) What are your thoughts on how/when to bring up the subject of polyamory with C, given that she seems to be monogamously inclined, and I might decide that I want to date her monogamously?

I would invite her over on Friday. I don't see any use in waiting two weeks.

That "I don't share" line does not sound good. I wouldn't wait too long before bringing up the poly.

I think I would hold off of seeing her on the Friday actually. If things go really well and you guys get fully sexual, and then you see D and really hit it off with her as well, and you decide you'd perhaps like to maintain a poly relationship with her too, you might find C feels taken advantage of. Two weeks is not a terribly long time, and if she has also specified that she doesn't want to rush into something intense, then I think your instincts are correct here. Plus, two weeks should give you some sense of objectivity (away from the sexy nre-type hormones that come from a nice make out session) in making a decision as to who to follow up with if it cannot be both women.

The alternative is to meet her on Friday and before things develop further sexually with her, explain the whole 'I might be considering poly, how do you feel about that' situation in advance. However, this could put her off you entirely, and as you say you would consider being monogamous with her if this thing with C goes nowhere, that would seem premature.

I have to say, as problems on these forums go, this is quite a nice one to have!

Hmm, so far I've gotten two completely different responses. I suppose that gives me weak evidence that neither of my proposed courses of action is entirely unreasonable. I agree with tenK that this is a good problem to have! I was considering including that very phrase in my original post.

Reading over tenK's post, I realize that one reason why I want to be especially careful that D not feel taken advantage of as he describes is that she told me she that about a year ago she ended a long-term relationship in which she was cheated upon.

I'm looking forward to seeing your continued responses. Nobody has yet addressed my second question -- if I do bring up polyamory with C, how to do so. On the one hand, if I decide I really like D a lot, what do I tell C? And on the other hand, if I decide to pursue monogamy with C at least for the time being, then do I bring up polyamory at all? (I mean if we were dating for many months I'd bring it up eventually anyway, but it would seem much less urgent. A few years ago, I fell really strongly for a woman and was willing to date her monogamously, but I brought up polyamory a few weeks into our dating, and I feel the discussion poisoned things. We didn't last long, though that wasn't the only reason.)

And also, come to think of it, how would I discuss all this with D? Last night, I was thinking it would be straightforward, but now I realize that if she's only looking for a FWB and feels that her involvement with me could ruin my chance at something more serious, it might drive her away. Still, my instinct is to be straightforward with her, because that is the mode of communication that comes naturally to both of us.

I think you need to decide if you want to be poly or mono, not base it on who you think you have a better chance with. The reality is you have just started seeing both of these women. There is a chance neither will work out in the long run.

The conventional wisdom of the people in this forum is to tell people right away. There is a thread here. The problem is you haven't made a decision yet. IME, it is best to make that decision first. You have to know who you are before you involve others in your life.

You are really overthinking things. Invite C for this Friday. You don't even know if she's available that night, so just ask her.

As for how or what to tell her about D, there's no need to make some big, earth-shattering announcement about polyamory. Personally, I rarely ever use that word. Just say that you met someone last week that you went out with once and want to see again, because you are not looking for exclusivity, and ask her if she is open to keep dating you. Make sure to let her know how much you enjoyed her company and want to keep seeing her.

[Vinsanity]: I think you need to decide if you want to be poly or mono, not base it on who you think you have a better chance with. The reality is you have just started seeing both of these women. There is a chance neither will work out in the long run.

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Did you read the other thread that I linked in my original post? Basically what I concluded at that time, after a lot of soul-searching, was that I don't identify exclusively as either mono or poly, and that both can work for me in the right circumstances. I'd be interested to hear what you have to add to that thread -- I'm still open to reconsidering that issue and would expect that my views there will evolve over time. Indeed, I've gone back and forth about how I feel about monogamy and polyamory a lot over the last several years, and I don't expect that I would have a final, lasting preference between the two soon, and perhaps not ever.

Lots of people feel that way, Socrates - but I wrote about that in your other thread (way back when!). I don't have to be either poly or mono. In other words, it's not something I am; it's something I do. I don't see polyamory as an orientation "hard-wired" in a person. Monogamy and polyamory are simply two approaches to relationships that I can choose or not, depending on what feels right for me and what works in my life. Just because poly works better and feels more natural for some people than it does for others, doesn't necessarily mean (as far as I see it) that they are wired one way or another, or can never adjust to another approach. There are a whole lot of cultural, social, and familial influences that help shape who we are and how we relate to others.

For me, personally, I think it's pointless to ask "Am I polyamorous?" I think the more practical questions are "What kinds of relationships do I want in my life? How many intimate relationships can I manage well? What makes me happy?" and so forth. I might meet someone I want to be monogamous with, and be perfectly happy. Or I may never go back to monogamy - but those are choices I make and I just try to always treat people with respect and to look at my relationships with others as learning experiences.

Socrates said:

Did you read the other thread that I linked in my original post? Basically what I concluded at that time, after a lot of soul-searching, was that I don't identify exclusively as either mono or poly, and that both can work for me in the right circumstances. I'd be interested to hear what you have to add to that thread -- I'm still open to reconsidering that issue and would expect that my views there will evolve over time. Indeed, I've gone back and forth about how I feel about monogamy and polyamory a lot over the last several years, and I don't expect that I would have a final, lasting preference between the two soon, and perhaps not ever.

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I just read it. I got the feeling you were leaning toward poly. I also get the feeling you are looking for long term love and would settle for mono if it got you that. Of course, my perception could be clouded by my own experiences.

I am one who believes I am hardwired for poly. I think that is why my mono relationships ended badly. Looking back, I probably could have stayed with any one of them if they had been part of a polycule.

I used to think it had more to do with my preference for kink, but I still found myself wanting more even when I had a kinky mono partner. Nope, I am poly. I find I am much happier this way now. I almost settled for yet another mono/non-kinky relationship because I fell madly in love with someone, but I came to my senses and avoided that disaster...and I do know it would have been disasterous.

Because of my experiences, I always tell people they should know what they want and strive to get it. Settling never leads to happiness. If you are truly fine with either one, then nothing I said applies to you. I just have a hard time believing a person can go either way because I know I can't, which makes me biased. Technically, I believe humans are poly, but our society conditions us to be mono. As with anything, there are exceptions.

vinsanity0 said:

I think you need to decide if you want to be poly or mono, not base it on who you think you have a better chance with. The reality is you have just started seeing both of these women. There is a chance neither will work out in the long run.

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That's what seems to have happened. I followed people's advice and invited C for Friday. She told me (to paraphrase) that she has decided she's not in a place in her life where she wants to be dating anybody just now.

vinsanity0 said:

Looking back, I probably could have stayed with any one of them if they had been part of a polycule . . . . Because of my experiences, I always tell people they should know what they want and strive to get it. Settling never leads to happiness.

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Interesting to put these two parts of your quote together. From a perspective of somebody who is open to both monogamy and polyamory but favors monogamy (how I feel sometimes -- other times I favor polyamory), if you had stayed with one of these past partners as part of a polycule, it could be seen as settling -- settling for somebody whom you don't like well enough to date monogamously. Just because you haven't YET met somebody whom you're willing to date monogamously, how do you know that such a person doesn't exist? (I'm not asking this rhetorically, I'm really curious to know, to help me identify for myself whether I should think of myself as exclusively poly.)

nycindie said:

Lots of people feel that way, Socrates - but I wrote about that in your other thread (way back when!). I don't have to be either poly or mono. In other words, it's not something I am; it's something I do. I don't see polyamory as an orientation "hard-wired" in a person. Monogamy and polyamory are simply two approaches to relationships that I can choose or not, depending on what feels right for me and what works in my life. Just because poly works better and feels more natural for some people than it does for others, doesn't necessarily mean (as far as I see it) that they are wired one way or another, or can never adjust to another approach. There are a whole lot of cultural, social, and familial influences that help shape who we are and how we relate to others.

For me, personally, I think it's pointless to ask "Am I polyamorous?" I think the more practical questions are "What kinds of relationships do I want in my life? How many intimate relationships can I manage well? What makes me happy?" and so forth. I might meet someone I want to be monogamous with, and be perfectly happy. Or I may never go back to monogamy - but those are choices I make and I just try to always treat people with respect and to look at my relationships with others as learning experiences.

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Thanks for your perspective, Nycindie. I go back and forth in my mind between this perspective and Vinsanity's perspective that one should identify more strictly.

Re (from Socrates):

"Nobody has yet addressed my second question -- if I do bring up polyamory with C, how to do so."

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I suppose you say, "I should tell you that I'm nonmonogamous. I hope that's okay?" Something like that. (The important thing is that you do bring it up.)

Re:

"On the one hand, if I decide I really like D a lot, what do I tell C?"

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I thought you already decided you did?

I don't think I would say much to C about specific people (like D) unless she specifically asks. Not saying keep it a secret, just that it's more like, if it comes up in a conversation.

Re:

"And on the other hand, if I decide to pursue monogamy with C at least for the time being, then do I bring up polyamory at all?"

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Yes, you do. Polyamory is something important that you've seriously considered. Just for the sake of honesty, C needs to know. If you intend to be monogamous with C you can certainly tell her that as well. Then, let her make her own decisions based on all of the key points of information.

Re:

"I mean if we were dating for many months I'd bring it up eventually anyway, but it would seem much less urgent."

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You could, and you could even argue that's good enough, but it's my opinion that C should be told sooner rather than later.

Re:

"And also, come to think of it, how would I discuss all this with D?"

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According to how it comes up in conversation.

Re:

"Last night, I was thinking it would be straightforward, but now I realize that if she's only looking for a FWB and feels that her involvement with me could ruin my chance at something more serious, it might drive her away."

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Perhaps it's best to take that chance, for the sake of transparency.

Re (from Socrates):

"I followed people's advice and invited C for Friday. She told me that she has decided she's not in a place in her life where she wants to be dating anybody just now."

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Oh ... sorry to hear that. Will you still pursue things with D?

Some here think we should basically allow things to organically flow rather than decide at the outset whether we're committed to monogamy or non-monogamy.
But this, to me, would seem to lead to more confusion than clarity and clear, honest communication with others with whom we're exploring a possible "romantic" relationship. Part of the reason is that the dominant culture's default setting (and assumption) is monogamy. So it's only fair to let folks know up front (soon in a "dating" process) where we're coming from on such questions.

There are other ways of proceeding, of course. One can simply "hang out" with people ... and be clear that this is all that's happening -- hanging out. Then the whole "dating" thing is irrelevant, along with all of the usual expectations and baggage that the word "dating" implies. And "hanging out" could lead to "dating" down the road -- or not ... and by whatever name. But I do think it serves us to be up front, and soon, about who we are and how we prefer to do "romantic" relationships if we're "dating".

Thanks, kdt and River for your responses. I don't have much more to add right now. Yes, kdt, I'm continuing to pursue things with D.

Keep us posted.

Socrates said:

Interesting to put these two parts of your quote together. From a perspective of somebody who is open to both monogamy and polyamory but favors monogamy (how I feel sometimes -- other times I favor polyamory), if you had stayed with one of these past partners as part of a polycule, it could be seen as settling -- settling for somebody whom you don't like well enough to date monogamously. Just because you haven't YET met somebody whom you're willing to date monogamously, how do you know that such a person doesn't exist? (I'm not asking this rhetorically, I'm really curious to know, to help me identify for myself whether I should think of myself as exclusively poly.)

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Somehow I missed this.

It is not about liking someone enough to be monogamous with them. I spent many monogamous years with my wife. I settled for monogamy because she is just that awesome. Still, there was something missing for me. If she hadn't agreed to poly after we got back together I would still have gotten back with her. I can't conceive of a life without her in it. I'm just glad things worked out the way they did because eventually being monogamous would have caused problems, no matter how much I love her.