LDR: Getting complicated or am I overreacting?

Some of you may know of my relationship with Cuba. Those of you that don't, we've had a casual thing for almost 5 months now. A comedian from my home town who is honestly one of the best men I know. He's incredibly considerate, a loyal "bro" type, who takes his responsibilities headlong and rarely complains. He reminds me quite a bit of Clark Kent in his demeanor, attitude, and looks, swooping in at any time to help a friend hurting or in need.

I initiated most of our relationship because after about 4 years of watching this man get fucked over and hurt over and over, I felt like giving him something I knew he wouldn't have to worry about. Someone like this NEEDs to be appreciated, even if for a short time from me.

The problem I'm having at this point is communication. I'm a little confused.
Every time we see each other, he naturally falls into boyfriend mode. The bear hugs, hand holding, hand on the butt, around my waist, kissing. He has no trouble or awkwardness showing me affection in person and he is obviously happy to see me.

However, when we are NOT around each other, when I'm the 3 hours I live away, I really don't hear from him. I can shoot him a text and he usually responds, but I have to try really hard to maintain conversation. Otherwise I don't hear from him at all.

For a while, I felt like I was over communicating and overwhelming him with the mass of things I had going on (though he never complained), so I tapered that off trying to find his comfort level so I could listen more, myself. I didn't want him to feel talked over or not considered.

Now it has been nearly 2 weeks since we've talked. There was a lot of intense drama going on with the rest of my poly network and he saw a facebook action which prompted him to check on us. We spoke briefly the day after and I thanked him for being there. We haven't spoken since then.

It's really not that unusual that we have such large gaps of time from talking, but it's something that's grown and become more frequent. I suppose this particular time just concerns me because the times we spoke I'm sure were concerning. I also have no idea what Zed said to Cuba when he disappeared for those few hours.

I know if I were to contact him, he would more than willingly chat with me and not make issue. My real concern is what he's actually thinking or feeling. Is he intentionally distancing himself? Does he even care if I'm around? How do I know one way or the other?

The few times I have tried to ask direct questions about what he's feeling, he's tried to remain neutral, almost aggressively so. He puts up a wall, kisses me on the forehead and goes to sleep. That has been a pattern more than once.

I really adore him intensely and I don't want to give up on this at all. There is really no reason to not continue. I just wish he would tell me what he's feeling or even just initiated conversation with me. The lack of that alone is making me feel that he is indifferent, but I don't want to force communication or make him feel like he owes me more time than he's willing to give.

I feel like I'm really not thinking clearly about this situation and could use some outside sources to figure this out.

Poly men, what are your thoughts? What do you think he may be thinking right now because I'm honestly at a loss.

Has anyone experienced anything like this?

Hi, Bunnie. I don't have direct, comparable experience, but I notice in your signature that you use "FWB" for Cuba. My thought is that I find it typical not to always talk to my friends on a consistent basis. This is especially true for friends who aren't local to me. For me, FWB is similar, just with the added sexual component? I'm thinking it just may be his style, not necessarily any statement on how much he cares for you. Particularly, if he's the independent type or has a very busy life.

ETA: I guess what I'm driving at is that maybe he just likes things as they are... if it's been working for him, he may feel no need to complicate it with 'feelings' talk? In that case, I guess it's up to you whether you're content with a FWB style relationship, or wanting more of a romantic/partnered type of relationship that he isn't willing to provide?

I can tell you how I look at things, but I am far from normal.

I really suck at communicating via text and email and phone, etc. In person I am super affectionate.

When I was on the road a lot it had to do with a few things. I didn't want to appear needy. I didn't want to interrupt the other person's life too much. Sometimes I was just super-focused on my job. I'm also a big procrastinator.

Now I am getting better at giving time to everyone, but I do prefer they initiate the conversation. A lot of that has to do with me having more free time than they do. My schedule is much more flexible.

Even though I'm not the greatest communicator, the people I care about are always on my mind.

Some men just don't need much. I am usually able to get my needs met without asking for them because my needs are not complicated most of the time. If I need something I ask for it and move on. I also don't need a lot of external emotional support or for someone to check in with me on a regular basis if there is nothing unusual going on. When I am present, I am in the moment and if I am elsewhere I am in that moment. When I hear from, or come in contact with someone, cool, all about it, but otherwise I have lots going on in life to keep me busy. I help anyone who has need but rarely need/want help from anyone else.

I can see where it may look like I am not particularly concerned with other people, but I am, very much. I don't know why, but I just don't feel the need to reach out to people, maybe because I am usually content and staying occupied and rarely have down time.

I don't know what that looks like from the outside or if that is even anything like what you are experiencing, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in, knowing nothing about Cuba, really, to say that while some people may leave you scratching your head not knowing what's going on there may be nothing wrong at all. Two weeks would be a stretch to not hear from me when in a relationship, but that's just me.

Assuming I may be way off base with the above and not knowing anything about the nature of your relationship, could there be any fundamental differences in the way the two of you view your relationship as individuals? As in, You: committed LTR. Him: LDR-FWB.

How did you get so close to a person who doesn't communicate with you?

Maybe try discussing things with him in person, when not about to go to bed? My husband PunkRock is unable to talk about anything after sex or before sleeping if we're down for a nap or for the night. I always have to check myself because that's when I always want to talk. Lol

Ditto what someone else said about FWB. In his mind that may mean staying out of feelings discussions and just enjoying positive time together.

Hi, Bunnielight!

First off, I should say that I haven't read your previous posts, which puts me at a disadvantage in answering the present questions.

Secondly, I should admit that I sometimes answer according to flashes of intuition, which are VERY possibly way off course.

I find myself in a similar situation: It's not lovers but friends to whom I write, but who don't often think of writing to me. When we see each other, everything's fine, but when we're apart, [I get the impression that] I'm more interested than they in keeping communication open.

But then I remember just how busy they are compared to myself: they've got children to look after or heavier workloads than I have. They haven't got as much free time to maintain contact as I have.

And then I remember that I have other friends with whom I don't invest so much energy in maintaining contact. Perhaps they resent the fact that they're the ones who are "carrying" me?

And now to my suspect intuition. Take this with a grain of salt.

Bunnielight said:

I initiated most of our relationship because after about 4 years of watching this man get fucked over and hurt over and over, I felt like giving him something I knew he wouldn't have to worry about. Someone like this NEEDs to be appreciated, even if for a short time from me.

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Here a warning bell goes off. Some people are addicted to being fucked over and hurt. They (subconsciously) LOOK for partners who will fuck them over and hurt them. Could it possibly be that Cuba is (unwillingly or unconsciously) uncomfortable in a relationship with somebody who won't fuck him over and hurt him?

This crazy idea probably wouldn't have occurred to me (and I hope - for your sake - that it is just a crazy idea) if it hadn't been for

Bunnielight said:

The few times I have tried to ask direct questions about what he's feeling, he's tried to remain neutral, almost aggressively so. He puts up a wall, kisses me on the forehead and goes to sleep. That has been a pattern more than once.

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"almost aggressively so"

"He puts up a wall"

(Of course, men in general are famous for putting up walls when women want to be invited in, so it may just be that...)

I am sorry you struggle.

Sounds to me like your communication need is not being met when he's away. You would like to know where you stand with him.

Since he would not make issue and would willingly chat with you about your concerns? Just bring it up.

Ask him if he could reassure you that he likes you being around. Tell him you wish that he would tell you what he feels about you more often or even just initiated conversation with you when he's away. The lack of that alone makes you wonder if he is indifferent.

Galagirl

Hi Bunnielight,

To be brief, I suspect you're overanalyzing what's going on in Cuba's head. I'm thinking that he thinks of long-distance relationships differently than you do. It doesn't occur to him to initiate remote contact, he just doesn't think of it. And, it's possible that he likes lots of me time, but I'm not as sure about that part.

I don't think it would be bad to ask him to initiate some contact with you, and even to ask him to let you know how he's feeling. But be specific. Give him an idea of how often you'd like to hear from him. And come to an agreement whether he'll contact you by phone, text, skype, or email. Maybe he doesn't like texting, who knows. I know I don't!

In my experience, men are often thinking dumb, embarrassing stuff, and precious little of that to boot. So to a man, hearing a woman ask him what he's thinking, it can give the man a mild panic attack (before he says, "Nothing"). Then the woman's like, "I know you're thinking something, come on, tell me what it is," and the man's panic attack worsens (before he again says, "Nothing").

This creates a feedback loop in which everyone's panicking. The woman's thinking, "OMG it must be something really bad, when he doesn't even want to tell me." The man's thinking, "OMG how do I escape this escalating interrogation?" Hell the man may make something up, something he wasn't thinking, just to escape having to admit he basically was thinking nothing. After all, who could ever literally be thinking nothing? Believe it or not, men are quite good at it.

At the most maybe the man's thinking, "Sex," or, "Food." Nothing specific about sex and food, just sex and food as general concepts. If he's more ambitious than usual, he might think, "Boobs," or, "Pizza." But that's about as deep as it gets. Unless he's tinkering with a car or fixing something around the house. It's pretty obvious what he's thinking about then. (Sex and food, right? )

Okay maybe I'm exaggerating a little. But not much! Men certainly have relationship thoughts, they just don't have them that often. Certainly not all the time. "Nothing" is quite often the best literal description of what a man is thinking. Most women have a much richer base of thought material, there is much more of much more substance going on up there. So I get why you might wonder if Cuba is holding back or putting up a wall. And it's even possible that he is. But the, "Actually he's not thinking," is the first explanation I'd run with.

He doesn't realize you need him to initiate contact with you. He probably doesn't even realize anything's wrong. So, let him know. Explain it in simple mechanical terms so he knows exactly what to do and doesn't goof up. I think he'd be willing to do better. He has willingness. It's awareness that he's lacking.

I apologize for stereotyping in this sermon. There's exceptions to every rule, I merely intended to state what I thought the rule was. I hope my sermon was helpful.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

I'm just going to 'ditto' Kevin and Galagirl's posts. They wrote pretty much everything I was going to say.

But I'll add: I'm LDR with Mal, and it's just about 14 months now. I'm SUPER blunt about what I need regarding communication, and when it tapers off I tolerate it for a bit (if I know drama is going on in his relationship with Djinn or if he's busy with work), but then I state it again. "I need to hear from you X times a day/week/year or I start to wonder what value I have in your life. I don't mind initiation 50%/75%/99% of those contacts, but I'd like you to work on initiating more too." It seems to work.

He tells me he likes how independent I am, but that it means that sometimes he lets the contact slide because he knows I can deal with my own shit on my own while there are others who NEED his help. Well, fair enough. But coming from someone who is *needed* all the time, being *wanted* is pretty powerful.

What you all are saying makes quite a lot of sense. Cuba is extremely independent and seems to really enjoy his bachelor life. I have a ton of respect for that. When he's not working or doing comedy, he's driving across the country to see his daughter, enjoying a movie, or helping a friend out with something.

I actually ended up texting him the other day because I just couldn't really stand it. That and I hate those "No, he's gonna text ME first this time." games. If I really want to talk to you, it's going to end up happening. Hey, it might trigger something you may suddenly want to tell me.

I simply told him that I'd like to chat whenever he gets the chance, which he immediately responded to with an offer to call me. Which the circumstances weren't really appropriate for at the time, so we ended up chatting for a bit then. And he's apparently coming in town for the weekend in a little over a month.:

It honestly seems like he just wants to do whatever makes me happiest. I should probably still let him know that I want to hear from him more. I would talk to him more about things voluntarily, but I really don't want to smoother him. Things as they are simply gives me the feeling that he doesn't want to be that close with me, when he's expressed that he considers Zed and I family on more than one occasion.

I suppose part of my fear is that he feels obligated to do this with me. That he's actually NOT that attracted to me and is just afraid to hurt my feelings by saying so.

How do I voice a concern like that without sounding completely insecure and assuming? Part of me feels like I've created this whole obligation theory in my head over time and part of me feels like it's a completely logical scenario for him to find himself in, considering his history.

Wow, I feel like I sound completely crazy there, but I'm posting it anyways because hamburgers.

I was under the impression that FWB was a very loose thing, like doing it when you feel like it, like a scedule or not, very loose. You seem to respond more like you are dating him. Which maybe you are, or want to.

It honestly seems like he just wants to do whatever makes me happiest.

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Then don't make him guess or mind reader. Spell it out.

I should probably still let him know that I want to hear from him more.

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Then do it. That's your side of the job. The telling of the Things. Because he isn't a mind reader.

I would talk to him more about things voluntarily, but I really don't want to smoother him.

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That's you talking yourself out of telling.

How about you let him tell YOU when he feels smothered? He can speak up. Trust him to.

I suppose part of my fear is that he feels obligated to do this with me. That he's actually NOT that attracted to me and is just afraid to hurt my feelings by saying so.

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That's you projecting your way of moving in the world on to him. Because YOU don't tell him things because YOU are afraid of smothering him or hurting his feelings in some other way.

How do I voice a concern like that without sounding completely insecure and assuming?

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"Could you be willing to talk to me more when you are away? I miss you and feel disconnected. I would like to feel more connected. "

Keep this a whole lot simpler on yourself.

Galagirl

Norwegianpoly said:

I was under the impression that FWB was a very loose thing, like doing it when you feel like it, like a scedule or not, very loose. You seem to respond more like you are dating him. Which maybe you are, or want to.

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I'm honestly not entirely sure what we are. I really have no reason to believe that he wants to place a label any greater than that. But I have a hard time not doing that in my mind when he is so publicly affectionate and considerate.

The FWB I had years ago much like this was way more textbook. Rarely talked, can carry intelligent conversations, but never in public together or acting super affectionate beyond our private intimacy.

With Cuba, there is an immediate deep affection that we both fall into. Deep long hugs, public cuddling, holding hands, etc. deep long kisses, in public or not. I suppose that's what is confusing me.

GalaGirl said:

Then don't make him guess or mind reader. Spell it out.




Then do it. That's your side of the job. The telling of the Things. Because he isn't a mind reader.




That's you talking yourself out of telling.

How about you let him tell YOU when he feels smothered? He can speak up. Trust him to.




That's you projecting your way of moving in the world on to him. Because YOU don't tell him things because YOU are afraid of smothering him or hurting his feelings in some other way.




"Could you be willing to talk to me more when you are away? I miss you and feel disconnected. I would like to feel more connected. "

Keep this a whole lot simpler on yourself.

Galagirl

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I definitely don't disagree with you. I'm fully aware that this is more a me problem than him. I don't think he's doing anything wrong whatsoever.

I just have a really big problem processing my emotions and I'm still learning to force myself to do that. I grew up in a really abusive home where I was taught emotions were bad and caused problems for no good reason. Why bring it up? Especially when it could hurt or complicate things for someone. I'd rather just deal and move forward. Otherwise they may just feel I'm not worth it and leave altogether. Those are my real thought processes and I'm starting to learn that it does way more harm than good..

Boots asked for our connection to be considered FWB, and he doesn't generally contact me between the times we see each other. But when I told him I'd like to occasionally have conversations, or at least check in with each other, in between, he told me to text him any time, and to text him more than once if he doesn't answer the first time. Which isn't easy for me, because I feel like I'm bothering him when I text him the first time, let alone if I keep doing it... but it's what he's said he needs in order to remember to answer me, and he said he *wants* to answer me. He just gets into hyper-focus mode if he's working on something, and if I text him during one of those times, he often forgets that he's received a text by the time he would be able to answer.

That's the part that might be relevant for you, Bunnie. I had the same issue with S2, even though he and I were actually in a relationship. Some guys just aren't the kind who are going to think "Oh, I really want to talk to her, I should text," especially if they get tied up in their own activities and thoughts. And if they're sidetracked, they might not answer right away, or at all sometimes. But that doesn't always mean they don't want to communicate with you when they aren't with you. As S2 once put it, "When I don't answer, I'm not ignoring you, and I do want to talk to you. I'm just a doofus sometimes."

So as GalaGirl said, tell Cuba you'd like more communication with him when you aren't together. Tell him you need that connection. And don't be afraid to tell him you're worried he sees you as an obligation. If he cares about you, he isn't going to consider that smothery or insecure. Just say, "Sometimes my brain plays tricks on me, and I start worrying that you feel obligated to be with me."

As for the "textbook FWB" thing, Boots and I don't fit it either. In public, he's physically affectionate. He keeps the kisses to something that could be just a friendly hello, out of consideration for my comfort zone, but he'll usually kiss me several times, put his arm around me or hold my hand while we're walking, etc. And we have one scheduled weekly "date", meeting for lunch on Thursdays. We don't have any other regular thing, but he's agreed to schedule most of our get-togethers at least a couple of days in advance because he knows I don't always do well with spur-of-the-moment things, and I've agreed that sometimes spur-of-the-moment can be okay because I know he likes spontaneity.

Labels are just labels. Some people don't need or want them at all. For Boots and for me, being able to label and define things is comforting and reminds us that we have at least partial control of the situation, which is important to both of us because of past stuff. FWB was the closest label we could figure out for the dynamic we have, but our dynamic doesn't necessarily fit what most people think of when they hear "FWB".

As labels go, Friends With Benefits seems to be pretty broad. This

The FWB I had years ago much like this was way more textbook. Rarely talked, can carry intelligent conversations, but never in public together or acting super affectionate beyond our private intimacy.

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seems more like what some people call "Fuck Buddies" and less like actual friends.

I have seen close friends, no matter their gender (though in the US such is much rarer among male/male friendships) give each other long hugs, or walking hand in hand or arm in arm so I imagine, while we are breaking down societal expectations this sort of thing should not be odd in a Polyamorous relationship.

Leetah

Just a thought to throw in here: FWB begins with the word "friends". I wouldn't really consider somebody a FWB if their interest is mainly sexual. That's more in the class of "fuck buddy".

How does this apply to this thread? Bunnielight, if I were you, I'd say something like:
"I LOVE the holding hands and kissing in public. I LOVE it that you're not scared of showing your emotions. But we were friends long before we were lovers, and I miss your touching base with me as a friend. I'd really like you to call me now and then because you want to hear my voice or ask me how I'm doing, not just because you miss our great sex.

"I had a hard time growing up in a family where emotions had to be hidden or considered a sign of weakness. So I'm scared of telling you that I NEED some more input from you. I NEED to know that you think of me from time to time while we're apart. And the only way that I can know that is if you call me sometimes, not only the other way around. Can you understand that?"

I'm editing this to say that Leetah made the same point re: FWB / "fuck buddies" as I did, and did so while I was typing my comment out, i.e. independently of each other. "Great minds think alike" / "Fools seldom differ". (take your pick.)

I pick "great minds".

Leetah

Re (from Bunnielight):

"I suppose part of my fear is that he feels obligated to do this with me. That he's actually *not* that attracted to me and is just afraid to hurt my feelings by saying so.
How do I voice a concern like that without sounding completely insecure and assuming?"

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Actually I think you expressed yourself quite well just in that quote. I wonder if it would be helpful to write him a good old-fashioned snail mail, a confession if you will, the things you're afraid of. To balance it out you could also write to him all the things you appreciate about him.

What it seems to boil down to is, the fear that maybe he's not telling you the truth, in that one particular area. Writing him a letter would be a way of exposing that vulnerable spot, and trusting him to tell you the truth. Tell him, "Please tell me the absolute truth, even if you're afraid it will hurt my feelings." On the other hand, you must be prepared to hear something that does *not* hurt your feelings, and be ready to believe it. Make that a promise in your letter. Promise him that you will believe what he tells you. (And promise yourself too.) Trust is so important in relationships. If you can't trust the other person, you can't really have a relationship with them. You're not about to bid this relationship farewell, right?

So there are two sides. There is a side of you that does believe him, and another side that doubts. Sometimes you can believe someone and doubt them at the same time. Does that make sense? Does Cuba have a good track record of being honest, do you think?

Sincerely,
Kevin T.