Problems with definition of 'safe sex'

Well, bit of a shock tonight... Mal told me that Djinn and Aladdin have not only still been having sex, but that they have been having unprotected sex in spite of multiple conversations between Mal and Djinn about being safe being a priority.

This has been going on for months, and probably all through the time when she was freaking out about 'not wanting to being poly' anymore. (Which is a separate problem, which I haven't even begun to process). Mal apparently knew that they were having sex, so it wasn't cheating (I didnt know, but since it isn't really my business, I don't have an opinion), but apparently she believed that since Alladin had been tested last summer - as we all were - when they had unprotected sex the first time he was 'safe' and therefore barrier free WAS safe sex with him. He has told her that he used condoms with all his other partners, and that was good enough for her.

So she has been having barrier free sex with Alladin AND Mal, without Mal knowing that she was barrier free with Alladin. And Mal and I are fluid bonded too...

And now she completely doesn't understand why Mal is upset, and doesn't feel he has the right to tell her that unless she starts using condoms with Alladin Mal will start using condoms with her. Mal is also going to be retested tomorrow, and depending on his results I guess will have to be too.

And because these kinds of revelations never happen at times when we are stable, on Tuesday I am going out to their house for a week to help out with the business, in someways recreating the situation were we first started. Not a low stress situation.

I think my plan is to just stay out of it. She might be my friend, but I think this time I have to treat her as a metamour, and just not discuss it with her. It is her and Mal's issue to work though, not mine.

Ok so you and Mal are together, Mal is married to Djinn, Djinn is also with Aladin.

Mal is upset that Djinn and Aladin are having barrier free sex even though last summer everyone was tested?

I have to agree with Djinn that if ALadin was tested and STI free as was everyone else then it was safe sex. Is there some reason that Mal doesnt want her having another barrier free partner? Maybe because she thought you and him are barrier free that it was okay for her partner to be as well?

I think you need to have a clear talk to understand what you all consider safer sex. I agree with you that to me, safer sex means with barriers. I don't have safer sex with my husband because we've both been tested negative. However I understand the concept of thinking "safer sex" would include "unprotected sex with someone who has been tested".

Now, Mal is 100% allowed to decide to use condoms with anyone he wants at any point and for any reason (provided the sex itself is consensual) so it's irational to believe he "doesn't have the right". Everyone has the right to do what they feel protects them. She has the right not to like it, and hell, even to break with him over it, but if he says condoms, well you follow the person who wants the most restrictions or you don't have sex at all.

I absolutely thinks she should have mentioned when she stopped using condoms. It's not something I would ever do without telling all of my other partners, even if the partner in question was mono and had been tested.

However different people place a different weight on what fluid-bonded means. So that's another discussion you need to have.

I think you probably should use condoms with Mal for now as well. As you say, depending on the result you may need to get tested as well. Well, in the meantime, you shouldn't be taking risks. If you needed to get tested is an option, that means you believe he may have caught something. If you believe he may have caught something, then use barriers to protect yourself. Sure, it sucks, someone along the line does something and you have to use barriers with Mal, but the alternative is worse, isn't it?

Good luck with the arguments that have resulted from it. I think you all need to accept and understand that you have different definitions, acceptable risk level and assumptions, and then talk to figure out how to avoid those situations in the future. The main mistake here was communication, and it's on everyone. She didn't say that they stopped using barriers (because she thought it was irrelevant) and you didn't specify that you wanted to know if she stopped using barriers (because you thought it went without saying). Everyone made assumptions so there is no need to look for a "side" that was "right" or "wrong". Just deal with the issue together and try to explain your point of view without blaming each other.

Inyourendo said:

Mal is upset that Djinn and Aladin are having barrier free sex even though last summer everyone was tested?

I have to agree with Djinn that if ALadin was tested and STI free as was everyone else then it was safe sex.

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Getting tested once over the course of a year is not enough to assume that he is still STI-free, especially since he has other partners. Sure he says he uses protection with them, but truly the only safe sex is no sex at all. There is still a risk. Besides that, I think the biggest problem is what I bolded below:

A2Poly said:

So she has been having barrier free sex with Alladin AND Mal, without Mal knowing that she was barrier free with Alladin. And Mal and I are fluid bonded too...

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She didn't tell her husband Mal that she was going bareback with someone who has several other sex partners, and that means Mal did not have enough information to be able to consent also to bareback. Nor did she consider A2Poly, who could be affected by this. She completely took them all for granted by doing watever she wanted without letting him know what was happening, for his and his other partner(s)' own health and well-being. That's big!

I've read some of your other posts about Dijinn not wanting to be poly any longer. I mention that because I'm wondering if the two are related? Is she passive-aggressive? Fluid bonding with Aladdin because you & Mal are fluid bonded?

I'd use condoms with Mal for this visit. Also, I usually get STI testing every 6 months, more frequently if any issues arise (regardless of how frequently Blue gets tested.)

Inyourendo said:

Maybe because she thought you and him are barrier free that it was okay for her partner to be as well?

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Maybe. But everyone knows that I don't have any other partners, whereas Aladdin does.

Tonberry said:

Well, in the meantime, you shouldn't be taking risks.

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We'll have his results back before we have a chance to have sex again, but yes, I totally agree.

Tonberry said:

The main mistake here was communication, and it's on everyone. She didn't say that they stopped using barriers (because she thought it was irrelevant) and [MAL] didn't specify that [MAL] wanted to know if she stopped using barriers (because [MAL] thought it went without saying). Everyone made assumptions...

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And I totally agree with this too (except that it was MAL who should have been more explicit in his desire to know what her safety practices were). I don't want to discuss her other partners with her, I just want to know that Mal is safe and that I can trust him.

nycindie said:

She didn't tell her husband Mal that she was going bareback with someone who has several other sex partners, and that means Mal did not have enough information to be able to consent also to bareback. Nor did she consider A2Poly, who could be affected by this. She completely took them all for granted by doing watever she wanted without letting him know what was happening, for his and his other partner(s)' own health and well-being. That's big!

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It is. Really big. He was very worried that I would be upset with both of them, but mostly I feel like this is a communication problem not a "caring" problem, so it is time to stop making assumptions, retest, and start over.

Though to some extent I think that it is the person who is using a "non-standard" definition who must make an effort to make sure that the other person/people is aware of the definition being used. And that "Safe sex" or "Safer sex" is - in North America - generally understood to mean at a minimum the use of a condom for penetrative sex. But ok, now we know what the definition is she is using we need to tweek it. Maybe she tests every 3 months. Maybe we all do. Maybe she uses condoms with Aladdin or with Mal or with both (and any other partners she may choose to have). I don't know... but something has to change - for all of our safety.

PinkPig said:

Is she passive-aggressive? Fluid bonding with Aladdin because you & Mal are fluid bonded?

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I don't think so, she just isn't that kind of person. Thankfully.

A2Poly said:

Maybe she tests every 3 months. Maybe we all do. Maybe she uses condoms with Aladdin or with Mal or with both (and any other partners she may choose to have). I don't know... but something has to change - for all of our safety.

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You can be in charge of your own safety here, not anyone else's. If Djinn continues to be fluid bonded with both of the guys and you feel like it is too risky for you - then you can always start using barriers with Mal. Your health is yours to take care of. The others will have to make personal desicions as of how to proceed in this situation.

Safety is also about talking what will happen, that way people will feel emotionally safe too and trust is vital if you are going to be fluent bonded.

Nadya said:

You can be in charge of your own safety here, not anyone else's. If Djinn continues to be fluid bonded with both of the guys and you feel like it is too risky for you - then you can always start using barriers with Mal. Your health is yours to take care of. The others will have to make personal desicions as of how to proceed in this situation.

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Agreed, I said it that way because I know Mal is not ok being fluid bonded with her while she is fluid bonded with someone who has other partners. In the unlikely event he decides that is ok, for me it's a choice of yes or no to penetrative sex with Mal because I'm allergic to everything. So he will have to decide if sex with me is worth using a barrier with her, and if not... What that means to us, or if testing before we see each other is adequate, or.... Gaa. Well , we'll hammer it all out somehow, I guess.

Just a heck of a shock. Now that the shock is passing I'm much more sanguine about it. We'll sort it out somehow. Thanks for your input. It helped.

A2Poly said:

And I totally agree with this too (except that it was MAL who should have been more explicit in his desire to know what her safety practices were). I don't want to discuss her other partners with her, I just want to know that Mal is safe and that I can trust him.

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True. I meant "you" as in "Mal and you" since you seem to agree on that part, but it's true he would have been the one discussing it with her.

So apparently their last conversation ended with Mal asserting that he was not going to have barrier free sex with her unless she is tested too, and uses a barrier method from now on with Aladdin. Her response was that she didn't want to use barriers with Mal, but she want going to give up barrier free sex with Aladdin either. He replied then there won't be any sex, and she claimed there isn't any anyway and stormed out.

When she came back everything continued as if the arguement hadn't happened. They are now at a festival with The Kids until Monday and I arrive at their house on Tuesday. Super great :/

When I asked him if he planned on finishing the conversation with her he said he was trying to pick the right time as it seems to be a 'trigger issue' for her. Well of course it is :/ she's being selfish and inconsiderate and doesn't like having it pointed out. :/

Well, actually, I'd have a problem with barrier free sex being off the table simply because I have poly partners and my paramour has a monogamous partner. That's not to say I would just go ahead and have barrier free sex without making sure everyone was aware, but it's clear to me that there isn't any room for losing the condoms with a poly partner in this situation.

For example, Mal is not being punished for having barrier free sex with more than one person, Djinn is. The only difference between Mal and Djinn seems to be their gender, and the fact that one of them has another partner who isn't monogamous. Not being monogamous doesn't mean dirty. It's perfectly reasonable to be barrier free with more than one person and still avoid STDs. It just means there has to be a certain amount of trust,
respect and consideration in the network. So far, you and Mal think that you're the only trustworthy ones and other people like Aladdin are not. That's kind of selfish, you know.

The solutions from here are either Mal and Djinn agree that they will only fluid bond with each other and everyone else uses barriers, or, Mal agrees to fluid bonding with trustworthy partners. That means you trust your paramour to pick trustworthy partners. Not you deciding whether they are or not.

MightyMax said:

Mal is not being punished for having barrier free sex with more than one person, Djinn is. The only difference between Mal and Djinn seems to be their gender, and the fact that one of them has another partner who isn't monogamous.

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1. No one is being punished. Mal is asserting his right to be safe - by HIS definition of safe. It's his body and he gets to decide how he wants to risk it.

2. It is not gender based at all. There is no sexism here. There is probably some ageism. Mal doesn't trust Aladdin because he is a 24 year old male, in a business that means girls are throwing themselves at him constantly. No one is disregarding Aladdins right to enjoy as many of those girls as he wants, but 'safer sex' is not 100% safe, and while Djinn feels testing once and trusting Aladdin to use condoms every time with anyone else is enough... Mal doesn't trust the young male brain to engage that much every single time. And since he was at one point a 24 year old male, and I was not... I'll take his word for it.

(And added to all of this, which I had forgotten until now is that Djinn is not on any other BC. Mal has had the snip, and I had surgery in November making me effectively sterile, but both Djinn and Aladdin are dealing with live rounds. Ugh. Not my problem, but an indication of her (lack of) thought process here.)

Sounds like a fine solution. Djinn can continue having barrier free sex with Aladdin and Mal van choose to either use barrier or abstain from sex as is his right.

Wow, no protection between two fertile partners, I hope all of you like kids...

Inyourendo said:

Sounds like a fine solution. Djinn can continue having barrier free sex with Aladdin and Mal van choose to either use barrier or abstain from sex as is his right.

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I agree. I hope Djinn calms down and starts understanding that. And that the underlying communication/disregard for others rights problem gets worked on some more. This 'assuming' we know what each other means thing clearly isn't working so well.

For now, I'm working at being 'just a Metamour' here, because thinking about my friend taking these risks make me want to give her a shake. But we need a boundary here, and I need to not be involved except as a support to Mal as he figures out if he wants to keep this conversation open, and what decision he is going to make in light of her 'barrier free or not at all' stance on sex with him.

A2Poly said:

1. No one is being punished. Mal is asserting his right to be safe - by HIS definition of safe. It's his body and he gets to decide how he wants to risk it.

2. It is not gender based at all. There is no sexism here. There is probably some ageism. Mal doesn't trust Aladdin because he is a 24 year old male, in a business that means girls are throwing themselves at him constantly. No one is disregarding Aladdins right to enjoy as many of those girls as he wants, but 'safer sex' is not 100% safe, and while Djinn feels testing once and trusting Aladdin to use condoms every time with anyone else is enough... Mal doesn't trust the young male brain to engage that much every single time. And since he was at one point a 24 year old male, and I was not... I'll take his word for it.

(And added to all of this, which I had forgotten until now is that Djinn is not on any other BC. Mal has had the snip, and I had surgery in November making me effectively sterile, but both Djinn and Aladdin are dealing with live rounds. Ugh. Not my problem, but an indication of her (lack of) thought process here.)

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I'd have a huge problem with my partner assuming that my paramour is irresponsible. I just would. Yes, absolutely, Mal gets to decide where he puts his penis and whether it is covered or not, but the judgement on my partner ("he's young, irresponsible, and won't be able to make good judgements about sex like the other slutty young people he fucks") wouldn't be okay at all. Not all 24 year old men are like anything and those sorts of judgements are sexist.

As I said, if I was Djinn in this situation, the issue wouldn't be around the inconvenience of barriers, it would be the condescending and negative judgements my partner is making about their metamour that would discourage me from negotiation. I would feel like any agreement on my side that I need to use barriers with Aladdin would be me agreeing that he is immature, irresponsible and careless because he is young and male. I do not agree with those views whatsoever so would be incredible loathe to do anything that even half suggested that I did.

Mal has known Aladdin just as long as Djinn has (years). He current lives in their basement suite. They work together on and off. It's not like he's judging some stranger or someone he doesn't know well. He respects Aladdin, but... It's not enough. You (and Djinn) can take that any way you like.

And Mal has said one or the other... Not that she must use barriers with Alladin. But that if she doesn't Mal will use barriers with her. Djinn is the one refusing to have sex with Mal unless it is bareback.

A2Poly said:

Mal has known Aladdin just as long as Djinn has (years). He current lives in their basement suite. They work together on and off. It's not like he's judging some stranger or someone he doesn't know well. He respects Aladdin, but... It's not enough. You (and Djinn) can take that any way you like.

And Mal has said one or the other... Not that she must use barriers with Alladin. But that if she doesn't Mal will use barriers with her. Djinn is the one refusing to have sex with Mal unless it is bareback.

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As I said, I'd probably take a similar stance to Djinn because I would not endorse my partner being treated like a petulant child by their metamour, my other partner.

What I would expect is for us to all sit down together and have a reasoned discussion about safer sex agreements. At the end of it, we may decide that it's better all round for me and Aladdin to use condoms because he wants to be able to do some things that Mal isn't comfortable with whilst fluid bonding and he wants to be able to do them more than he wants to continue fluid bonding with me. However, the difference is that we sit down as three or four adults and talk about things honestly and everyone gets to make informed choices. We don't just unilaterally decide that "the kid" is irresponsible and therefore it's barriers or nothing. That isn't how grown ups do polyamory. When they do polyamory like that, without respect and consideration for others, it prompts people to say things like "you fuck me bareback or not at all". I really don't think anyone has handled this issue well at all.

It's clear from your attitude that you and perhaps Mal are unwilling to consider anyone else's point of view. Even those who are directly involved. That's a real shame and will only end in heartbreak.

If Alladin tested negative, and has been using condoms with all his other partners ever since then ... well ... then ...

Why, do you think Alladin's lying about that part?

Re (from Tonberry):

"I absolutely think she should have mentioned when she stopped using condoms."

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Yeah I agree with that.