thoughts and mixed feelings

Good tangent, opalescent. I am increasingly surprised at how cheating is more acceptable than polyamory. I know within my friend group with Jack, we were concerned about how him dating me (and being in a polyamory relationship, me having two partners) was of concern, though a mutual friend who actively engaged in cheating (during events when we'd all spend time together) was not problematic. Jack and I have had discussions where this cheating friend WOULD probably not accept us being in a poly-mono relationship, despite his own actions.

I know in past threads, people have argued that cheating is still within the mono framework - either you leave the current partner or decide to recommit to the original partner and end things with the other significant other.

It baffles me that cheating can be more acceptable, although the research suggests that people are more accepting of polyamory (or ethical non-monogamy) than cheating. It's strange to me.

opalescent said:

I've run into this phenomenon of people being unwilling to be open or poly but totally fine being unethically non-monogamous (cheating). It is understood by the larger culture in ways poly or open is generally not. I find this deeply puzzling but being honest with everyone involved seems to be way more work and discomfort, at least up front, to many people than cheating. And I wonder if this is maybe more common an attitude in Europe. Puritans wanted the public and private morality to match while 'decadent' Europe was comfortable with a disconnect for centuries. It is to be expected that powerful, wealthy men have mistresses who may be no secret really but are still at least a patina of covertness, of discretion. This came to my mind when you mentioned she is Italian, another old culture with different and distinct rules for public and private behavior.

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Another reason poly might be hard for people to wrap their heads around is that poly completely embraces female sexual desire for multiple partners. That's a concept that cheating doesn't even touch. Poly seems "wrong" and "out there" not so much when a man has multiple love interests (we've seen that openly expressed throughout history and across cultures) but when a woman has multiple lovers, she is way beyond the pale of what many consider to be acceptable female sexuality. "Acceptable female sexuality" is changing as women's economic freedom continues to expand, but enjoying more than person (especially more than one man) is a very edgy concept for most, whereas we're long familiar with the idea that a man would want to have more than one woman around.

reflections said:

Good tangent, opalescent. I am increasingly surprised at how cheating is more acceptable than polyamory. I know within my friend group with Jack, we were concerned about how him dating me (and being in a polyamory relationship, me having two partners) was of concern, though a mutual friend who actively engaged in cheating (during events when we'd all spend time together) was not problematic. Jack and I have had discussions where this cheating friend WOULD probably not accept us being in a poly-mono relationship, despite his own actions.

I know in past threads, people have argued that cheating is still within the mono framework - either you leave the current partner or decide to recommit to the original partner and end things with the other significant other.

It baffles me that cheating can be more acceptable, although the research suggests that people are more accepting of polyamory (or ethical non-monogamy) than cheating. It's strange to me.

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I think the reason why cheating is more accepted is because most of society believes that your lover loving someone else is considered disrespectful, a slap in the face, emasculating, and it makes you a chump if you accept it. Better to be kept in the dark by having your significant other cheat. You save face because you can claim ignorance of it and if you do find out then all the shit falls on the cheater and you get to play the martyr by being a victim and ending it or taking the cheater back. Having been cheated on and playing the role of the cheater I am very aware of both sides of the dynamic.

graviton said:

Having been cheated on and playing the role of the cheater I am very aware of both sides of the dynamic.

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So have I. What I don't get is how someone who has already been there - in either role - and decided to go poly would go for cheating.

I don't get that either.

A bit more on separating relationships: Relationships certainly can be kept separate, up to a certain point. Metamours don't even necessarily have to meet each other. But, if something concerns you about the other relationship, especially if it could affect you, it isn't wrong of you to express that concern. It isn't even wrong of you to leave the boat before it goes over the falls, if you so choose. One relationship can affect another relationship.

kdt26417 said:

I don't get that either.

A bit more on separating relationships: Relationships certainly can be kept separate, up to a certain point. Metamours don't even necessarily have to meet each other. But, if something concerns you about the other relationship, especially if it could affect you, it isn't wrong of you to express that concern. It isn't even wrong of you to leave the boat before it goes over the falls, if you so choose. One relationship can affect another relationship.

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Yes, I think you´re right.

I talked to A. yesterday, regarding all my concerns and what we´ve been talking about here - I didn´t mention I was in the forum or anything though.

He doesn´t think he´s doing anything wrong. He thinks monogamy is wrong and if that´s their choice, they have to deal with it. And also that he is not in a relationship with V.`s BF, so that´s her choice of cheating on him and not being sincere. He, A., on the other hand, has been sincere to me and to her, and that´s what matters, in his opinion. He knows this might go nowhere, but still wants to meet her.

I told him I have trusting issues right now and I was really close from leaving the boat, but - probably because I do love him and see the good things we still have - I decide to give it a try.

Regarding talking/getting in touch with her, he told me she doesn´t want to. That she´s not in that place yet - will she ever be? That´s my question. She said she doesn´t want to "share him". But, then again, she´s coming into a relationship that already exists - how can she ignore it? He said he hopes we can talk if they continue to see each other, but he can´t force her into talking to me when she says she doesn´t want to.

Despite those trust issues, I think it´s also hard for me to hear him say he has feelings for her. Eventhough I´m happy for him and I don´t want to feel jealousy, it scares me. It´s the first time I hear him say he has feelings for someone. The others where just like "I like her". Maybe he means the same thing, but he struggled a lot before until actually saying he had feelings for me. So it makes me think that he has strong feelings for her - eventhough they only met once and have been talking/texting for 3 weeks now - , maybe even stronger than the ones he has for me? I know I shouldn´t compare, but that´s how I feel right now...

So A. just wrote me saying that V. said she can´t do it after hearing that we spent the evening together and I slept at his place (I was out of town for the weekend). She said she can´t/doesn´t want to share him (wait, she has a boyfriend herself). She´s sad she´s fallen in love with someone who is "like that" and he´s sad that they can´t work it out...but it was pretty clear from the beginning when she said she don´t want /can´t do an open relationship...she had tried it before.

I feel sorry for him, but it´s just like...the signs where all there all the time...

clalb said:

So A. just wrote me saying that V. said she can´t do it after hearing that we spent the evening together and I slept at his place (I was out of town for the weekend). She said she can´t/doesn´t want to share him (wait, she has a boyfriend herself). She´s sad she´s fallen in love with someone who is "like that" and he´s sad that they can´t work it out...but it was pretty clear from the beginning when she said she don´t want /can´t do an open relationship...she had tried it before.

I feel sorry for him, but it´s just like...the signs where all there all the time...

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hehehe. this makes me chuckle

Yup, fire is hot.

Seriously, I wonder why he pursued this particular connection. I wonder if there is something internal going on for him.

opalescent said:

Yup, fire is hot.

Seriously, I wonder why he pursued this particular connection. I wonder if there is something internal going on for him.

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What do you mean by something internal? I guess he had some strong feeling - and, as I stated before, he´s very rational. So he probably thought he had to go after this feeling? Or do you mean something like more him wanting to go mono? That´s out of question for him...

I don´t get it either. With all the big red flags and the other person saying directly they can´t cope with a poly lifestyle and mono not being an option for me, I wouldn´t go any further. Even if it felt good. But that´s me. I´m not a person who falls in love at first sight - it happened once, thinking about it now - although I´m intense...

Re (from clalb):

"He thinks monogamy is wrong and if that's their choice, they have to deal with it."

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Apparently he ended up dealing with it.

Re:

"Regarding talking/getting in touch with her, he told me she doesn't want to."

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Well she didn't even want you in the picture, did she?

Re:

"So it makes me think that he has strong feelings for her, maybe even stronger than the ones he has for me?"

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There's no way to know that. You also have to take into account that NRE is a strong brew.

But I guess it doesn't matter? if V's really withdrawn from the situation.

Re (from clalb):

"I feel sorry for him, but it's just like ... the signs were all there all the time ... "

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He seems to compartmentalize a lot. Such as thinking of "the signs" as being in their own box, separate and aside from his relationship with V. I can't imagine what he expected would happen. Maybe he suspended all expectations.

kdt26417 said:

Re (from clalb):

1. Well she didn't even want you in the picture, did she?

Re:
2. There's no way to know that. You also have to take into account that NRE is a strong brew.

But I guess it doesn't matter? if V's really withdrawn from the situation.


Re (from clalb):

3. He seems to compartmentalize a lot. Such as thinking of "the signs" as being in their own box, separate and aside from his relationship with V. I can't imagine what he expected would happen. Maybe he suspended all expectations.

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(I didn´t figure out how to make multiple quotes. I tried to, but then the answer get´s inside the quote mark, so I´ll do it this way.)

1. No, she clearly did not want me in the picture at all. That´s also the reason why she said she´s out. She can´t deal with him being emotionally involved with someone else.

2. Are all NRE that strong? From what A. is telling me, it´s really something special/strong between them. She said she couldn´t deal with him being emotionally involved with someone else, but maybe if it was only sex - I also doubt that. And he even considered - for a few minutes - if he could do that. That hurts.

I wonder if she is really withdrawn. If it´s that strong, if they can let it go. I think that feelings that come that quickly also go quickly - you don´t really know that person, they met once and have been talking for 3 weeks...but maybe I´m wrong. What´s your experience? If a NRE that is really strong doesn´t go anywhere, can you let it go?

3. He does compartmentalize a lot. And I think you´re right, he suspended all expectations. I guess it was something he felt like giving a try for it being so strong, eventhough he knew it couldn´t go anywhere.

The positive side of this whole story is that he´s more open now to talk about feelings with me. For a long time, he would deny having feelings at all or not want to talk about it and yesterday he said he realized how that was not nice from him.

I know he decided to be by my side. He says we have something beautiful and we´ve been through so much together and grew stronger. We were never head of heals in love, but the feelings grew stronger over time. I also agree with that.

Maybe I should be happy with it, but right now, it hurts really bad. It hurts to think that he could only say something because of her. It hurts not to be able to fully trust a relationship/feeling that is so beautiful because right now, even with him telling me he would not leave me and things won´t change, I felt in this weeks how he put less energy in our relationship. Maybe that´s normal with a NRE, but I also get the feeling that maybe I´m just filling a gap. I always thought that´s a relationship he wants as well, and he still says it is, but as he felt so quickly for V. I wander if he is waiting to find someone for whom he´ll fall again here in our city and then leave me?

I don´t know. I´m sad.

I´m not really clear with all my thoughts, maybe. Also, English is not my mother tongue, so the text may be unclear sometimes...it´s kinda stream of conciousness...

Thanks so much for being there for me. This has been great help talking to people with more experience...

So much about V. being withdrawn: A. told me she called yesterday and is thinking about giving it all up: her relationship with the BF (whom she calls husband), her life in Italy, everything.

I don't get it and I'm so scared.

She KNOWS she can't deal with poly, she's stated it more then once. Still she wants A. and I'm so sure she'll try to get him out of the relationship. He told her - again - it's clear to him how his feelings towards me are and he won't leave me, even though he really likes her.

It's her call. I think we should talk, the three of us. A. agrees, but he says she has to decide first if she would actually be able to leave everything behind. I, on the other hand, think we should talk before, as I exist in this relationship and also my feelings have to be taken into account. She has to be aware of it and not only ignore and pretend everything will be alright.

I feel really sick in my stomach and can't eat or concentrate properly at work...

All of this drama and they've only known each other three weeks?? And now she's contemplating moving country? To me, that is worrying and unstable behaviour, even without knowing that she is not actually comfortable with your partner's polyamory. It smacks of slight desperation on her part. "Look at how much I would give up for you just to be with me!" Ugh. If by some odd miracle that works and your partner is impressed by such antics, then you are better off without him. I actually suspect this thing will implode of it's own volition, without you having any more to do with it though.

I haven't experienced it first-hand myself, but it's clear that sometimes our partners and loved ones do stupid things and need to learn from their own mistakes. I think he's shown that he is willing to stand up for your relationship, and he has made it clear on numerous occasions that he's not leaving you for her. As long as his NRE doesn't cause him to neglect investing in your relationship, there's not that much more you can do. You have told him you think this is a mistake and pointed out the red flags waving in the wind. I think you just have to let him get on with it now.

If hearing about all this nonsense is starting to get you down and make you think ill of him, you could consider figuring out some healthy information boundaries for yourself. As in, you would like to know his plans, when he wants to see her, if anything important changes in the situation, but you don't want to be part of his 'moping over her' support circle any more. He has other friends he can moon over her with, no? I think in your shoes that's what I would want to do - express my reservations, give him space to date her, but try to protect myself as much as I can from dealing with the emotional roller coaster he's bringing to your doorstep. I wouldn't bother trying to meet her. She's going to come up with any and every excuse under the sun to not do that, so make the offer one final time and leave it to him. Meeting her will not magically ensure she recognises you and your importance in his life anyway, and if she has her mind set on trying to be a cowgirl, all a meeting will do is give her a chance to undermine your confidence and pull his strings. Hopefully the contrast in your (reasonable, open, willing) behaviour and hers (theatrical, rejecting of his other relationships, unwilling) though will become clear to him in time.

It isn't even wrong of you to leave the boat before it goes over the falls, if you so choose. One relationship can affect another relationship.

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I agree with this.

I haven't experienced it first-hand myself, but it's clear that sometimes our partners and loved ones do stupid things and need to learn from their own mistakes.

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And this. And having experienced some up close and personal?

I find it best to step away from the crazy. Maintain my own boundaries. Even if it means breaking up so *I* can stay healthier. Sad, with regrets... but ultimately healthier. They can learn from their mistakes without me being in the "splash zone."

I am sorry you deal in this.

Galagirl

clalb said:

What do you mean by something internal? I guess he had some strong feeling - and, as I stated before, he´s very rational. So he probably thought he had to go after this feeling? Or do you mean something like more him wanting to go mono? That´s out of question for him...

I don´t get it either. With all the big red flags and the other person saying directly they can´t cope with a poly lifestyle and mono not being an option for me, I wouldn't go any further. Even if it felt good. But that´s me. I´m not a person who falls in love at first sight - it happened once, thinking about it now - although I´m intense...

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clalb,

That wasn't very clear of me, was it? Sorry!

When someone does something that seem very out of character, not something they normally would do, when they seem driven or not really fully in control of their actions or emotions, that is often not really a response or reaction to an external situation. It often indicates that some sort of deeper, subconscious concept is impacting their psyche. The external situation - the affair with V for instance - can trigger this subconscious feelings and behavior but it doesn't cause it. Given that you describe A as rational, but still behaving in ways you don't recognize - that's why I wondered if some internal conflict or concept is driving his behavior.

So, to make up an example, let's say that very rational A learned growing up that love was a grand, destructive passion that swept all before it, risking everything, competing with other men for the lady, with drama and conflict and danger. If he thinks that is what 'love' is, he may reach for it with V, who fits this stereotype even down to being Italian. And despite the growing attachment with you, he may not even fully process that as 'love' because it may not fit his deeply ingrained sense of what love is. Look, I have no idea if this is accurate. But he does fit what I've seen, and experienced in myself, when someone is acting out deeply held beliefs and does not consciously realize that.

The thing is, if one can't bring to words what is internally happening - and that can be very difficult and this is especially true for those who think of themselves as always behaving in a rational and logical way - it is really hard to even grasp that one is behaving weirdly. One is just following what 'love' is.

Re: the language barrier ... your English is pretty good and I feel I understand most of what you're saying.

Re (from clalb):

"Are all NRE that strong?"

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Heheh, I suppose not all, but "weak NRE" is rare (from what I've seen and read).

How long does NRE last? They say six to 24 months. (Now and then I've heard that it was three to 36 months.)

Now that A is broken up with V, I think he is probably in the stages of grief (which is different from NRE). It's hard to say how long he'll be grieving but I suppose I'm hopeful it'll only be a few months. (Which is pure intuition on my part!)

If V returns and asks to resume things with A, A will probably agree to it. Even if it's years later. I just state that based on what I know of A and what his position has been on the relationship with V. The poly/mono divide between him and V didn't stop him the first time, so.

Glad to hear he's more open now to talk about feelings with you.

Re:

"I always thought that's a relationship he wants as well, and he still says it is, but as he felt so quickly for V. I wonder if he is waiting to find someone for whom he'll fall again here in our city and then leave me?"

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Well that's a sad thought. I hope it's not true. I can understand why you would feel that way.

Re (from clalb):

"So much for V being withdrawn: A told me she called yesterday and is thinking about giving it all up: her relationship with the boyfriend (whom she calls husband), her life in Italy, everything."

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Aha, I had a feeling she might not be gone so easily. I think you are onto something when you suspect that she has some "cowgirling" in mind: That is, she intends on roping A away from you. We can only hope that A will refuse to be roped.

Thank you all for your comments and replies. It does means a lot to me.

I can´t somehow make different quotes out of one text. If anyone out there could give me some tipps on how to do it, I would appreciate it. or I´ll research a little whenever I have more time.

tenK, I know, it sounds all crazy to me, too. I don´t really get it.

She and A. talked yesterday and got to the point - again? - it´s over. I feel a bit insecure about sharing it here and they changing their mind again, but here´s what happened. As most of you predicted and also, as I was feeling: V. said she would leave everything behind in Italy (she´s actually German - A. and I are not, we just live in Germany. ) to be with him. If he´d leave me, if he´d be only with her. He said he wouldn´t do it. I guess he refused to be roped, kdt26417. He won´t leave me - nor go for monogamy, even though he likes her a lot. They then finally realized it´s not going to work out and decided not to talk anymore, as if they keep talking things would be more difficult. I hope, I really do, they stick to it this time. This is not doing me good, either.

He´s sad, I bet she is as well. But I went for tenK´s and GalaGirl´s advice and am trying to keep my boundaries and not talking too much about it.

opalescent, all your thoughts are totally accurate...that might be what it is. And through this he kinda realized he does have strong feelings for me and is not willing to loose or leave me - even if that means giving away his NRE.

I´m still sad and hurt and rethinking somethings in the relationship, in the way he deals with poly and this "separating, compartimentizing" them. Maybe he changed his mind now. I ordered the "more than two" book - which I´ve been meaning to do forever - and maybe we can discuss some stuff better...He has hurt me with this compartimentization (this was not the first time, also with also not talking about feelings.

As I just posted it, I get a message: "her husband found out about everything".

"maybe we can´t really be friends and have something together, but we´ll see"

I can´t help but feel like she´s playing games.