How do I even start to explain??

graviton said:

Be careful. To most men, a wife claiming she is poly is no different than a wife proclaiming she wants a divorce. Seeing other people=end of marriage in most peoples eyes.

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This is true. The way he represented the idea about the counselor who believes in 3-way-marriage... no, I doubt he is ready for even considering the idea of polyamory.

But, on the other hand:

I don't want to go through counselling and then be like "oh by the way...there's this oooother thiiiiing..." and then have to go through it all again.

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This is very true as well. The whole process of counselling would be wasted time, money and energy if you would go to it with the idea of repairing a monogamous marriage in mind. Poly is something totally different.

You are in a tough spot, for sure. In many ways.

I just asked him how he can act normal after the discussion we had yesterday about counselling and divorce and he said "I love you, and that surpasses anything". So there is hope for us yet.

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Yes, there is hope for you. You love him, he loves you. The question is: does he love you as the person you are deep inside? I truly hope he does. Anyway, it might take him a while to really digest all the reasons why you left the church. From what you have told here it sounds like he still hopes it is something temporary and motivated by some problems in how people have handled some things, rather than real change of beliefs. This alone is a huge thing to process. Add polyamory on top - you will challenge his world view fundamentally.

I wish all the best to you!

I definitely understand the desire to just come out and say it all, right now, and get it over with. You're excited about the changes happening in you, and your life, and rightly so. You're thinking for yourself, you're finally being authentic to who you are and what you believe, feel, and need. That is a heady experience.

But, it's important to remember you have had your entire life to get to this point, essentially. Your husband has had a few weeks. It's totally understandable he is going to take some time to catch up, and giving him that time may save your marriage.

You're not seeing anyone right? This is all still theoretical at this point? So, where's the fire? Continue exploring your feelings and thoughts about the many things happening in your life, and expand those explorations to include other things, as well, that perhaps you haven't thought of yet. Questions like:
-what kind of poly model appeals to you, and what are some of the practical implications of living that model?

-How do you feel about the idea of a god in general--do you still believe in a being, but just not a religion? If you still believe in a god, and want more community, do you want to join a less fundamental/non-denominational church?

-What is more important, your poly nature or your marriage, if there has to be a choice?

-Do you want to make more friends/create a support network of new people who are outside of your church?

You get the idea. You've got a lot to keep your mind busy for now, while giving your husband some time to breathe and get used to his new reality. Also, finding a good counselor can really help. He/she can help you find a good timetable for introducing more changes to your husband in a thoughtful way that takes into account your need for change alongside his need for time, education, and understanding. His entire world is changing, so there's very likely to be some volatile emotions (no one likes forced change) that he will need time and support to work through. He also will probably, at some point, need some time to grieve. His relationship, and his life, are not the same. His reality is shifting, and he may feel a loss of sorts: a loss of comfort, safety, and familiarity. I urge you, if you value your marriage, not to add to that right now. Let him come to terms with things on a timetable that is more realistic for this kind of change, and you will have a much better chance of saving your marriage.

Sometimes, we have to hold in our excitement at our own growth and discoveries until those we love can readjust.

Nadya said:

From what you have told here it sounds like he still hopes it is something temporary and motivated by some problems in how people have handled some things, rather than real change of beliefs. This alone is a huge thing to process. Add polyamory on top - you will challenge his world view fundamentally.

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This from Nadya is quite astute and key, as I see it. I'll tell you that what really helped me to go from a long term mono marriage to a poly model was for me to focus on my need for freedom in many ways, not to focus on convincing anyone, especially my husband, of the change in orientation. It wasn't about any one relationship or situation, it was about my need to be fully alive and free to choose at all times. My preference was to stay in the marriage/family, but if that had to fall away, I was willing to go there. My freedom was not up for discussion and we did not get bogged down in the details of this or that other person. Stay focussed on where you're going (freedom of choice, freedom of thought) and don't get too wrapped up in the extent to which your husband understands or approves. He will have a spectrum of responses (expressed and unexpressed) and assumptions and all of that is his process, not yours. The more at peace you are about where you're going, the less you need to make efforts to bring others along. The more you trust in the process and dare I say, trust in God, the more open doors and open hearts you'll encounter along your journey of awakening.

And absolutely, as Green Acres says, there is no need to rush your husband or the process along. Allowing all of this to blossom in you will only serve your long term vision. The more at peace you are about your vision of your life, the more you'll see that very peace reflected in the people around you. Trying to orchestrate others into behaving in ways that are pleasing to you doesn't really work in the long run. A much more stable approach is to develop your own inner peace and then watch it radiate outward, influencing your relationships in all kinds of delightful and surprising ways.

Re (from Journeyofawakening):

"So it's quite hurtful to know that he thinks I don't have a mind of my own."

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Possibly he doesn't see anyone as having a mind of their own? Maybe he sees the church as the way we can receive a mind. Or rather, what has our mind for us and in our place.

Re: a marriage counselor ... I almost want to say hurry and find a poly-friendly counselor while your husband's not looking, then say you've found a good counselor without admitting that they're poly-friendly. But, that would be shifty. The truth is, you probably need to have "The Poly Talk" with him before even starting with a counselor. But, if you want to delay that talk and try a counselor of his choosing, you can certainly do that and it may prove to be helpful. Just be cautious.

And another Sunday been and gone, so I wonder what has happened with the church this weekend!

I guess I'll start looking for a counsellor. I'm leaning towards getting out of this poly closet sooner rather than later just to get this all out the way. I don't want to go through counselling and then be like "oh by the way...there's this oooother thiiiiing..." and then have to go through it all again.

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Yup. I would want same. Get it over with.

But I'd hold on a little bit to get centered in myself, and set up my counselor for support system before laying it all out on the table so I have my support systems in place. Perhaps have the counselor meet with me individually first to help me get things organized. Perhaps have the counselor help me to have the conversation with spouse when I'm ready to lay it out.

No hurry to date anyone -- leaving church and coming out to spouse as poly is plenty enough to process. And to determine if spouse is willing and able to love me (all of me) as I am, which includes me evolving and changing over time.

Or determine if spouse loves an idea or picture of me and doesn't really want to know or love all of me.

That's pretty important to me in marriage. I could not stay married to someone who only wants to love a "sanitized" version of me. I hope your spouse loves all of you as you are and these conversations help bring you closer together with a deeper understanding of each other.

But either way? I think you may find that as you align yourself to be a more accurate reflection of your authentic self, and start dealing with the people in your life assertively and authentically? It will get easier to do -- keep living assertively and authentically. And that will bring YOU closer to YOU. No matter how the rest plays out.

Galagirl

Re (from bassman):

"And another Sunday been and gone, so I wonder what has happened with the church this weekend!"

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I have no idea ... and ahhh, what a good feeling that is.

Thank you everyone for your input. I can't reply to every point individually. To be honest, since I've left the church and started accepting who I am, my marriage is improving. And what Karen said is what I want, I just want freedom. Freedom to be me and believe what I want to believe. I've never been in that place and I'm journeying towards it and it feels amazing.

I think if I didn't have the children it would be different. It's not that I want to stay with my husband because of them because that isn't the case. But I certainly don't want them to have their daddy not living with them anymore.

My husband is generally an open minded kind of person. We have both been through lots of changes over the time we have been married, especially when we had the children (my eldest is 5 and a half). We have changed our view on healthcare, on diet, on work and finance. Those have been quite easy transitions. But changing a viewpoint on spiritual beliefs seems much harder for him and I'm not entirely sure why?

I also had a conversation with my sister a few days ago who said that she had an affair (that I didn't know about) a few years ago and almost left her husband for another man who she loved. My mum did the same thing. I don't want to go down that road of having an affair and then having to fix my marriage after that happens.

bassman said:

And another Sunday been and gone, so I wonder what has happened with the church this weekend!

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Not a clue either...I ask my husband when he comes home if he had a good time and he generally says yes. That's about the extent of it!

I don't feel bitter about the church really. I just think it's incredibly misguided and information has been warped over such a long time. It's so interesting talking to my family about it though because essentially at the point I'm at, we want the same things. Peace, love, no fear, freedom and 'heaven' on earth. I just don't think worshipping anyone will do that for us.

My oldest brother is an incredibly smart guy, and can wrap his mind around just about anything, including concepts that are out of my reach. Yet, he remains totally loyal to the church. Long conversations with him have failed to convince him to budge on that position. So, I understand what you mean when you say your husband is usually open-minded yet still won't budge on the church issue.

kdt26417 said:

My oldest brother is an incredibly smart guy, and can wrap his mind around just about anything, including concepts that are out of my reach. Yet, he remains totally loyal to the church. Long conversations with him have failed to convince him to budge on that position. So, I understand what you mean when you say your husband is usually open-minded yet still won't budge on the church issue.

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My difficulty is that they are so close-minded. I would love to explain to them what I believe. I've tried to in some aspects but I just get accused of being deceived by listening to others or reading the 'wrong things'. The Bible is their absolute truth and the blinkers are on. They ask me why or how I believe what I do....and the only answer I have is 'intuition'. It just feels right. And that doesn't fly for them because they have the Bible as their reference point. Something physical that they can refer to. It's just...hard work. I don't mind not talking about it with my family but when it comes to my husband, having each other's spirituality kept separate will be really difficult for me. Especially when he prays with the kids before bed and I don't, and my son asks me why.

Sorry I just needed to rant there. It's helpful to get these thoughts out. I don't mind being with people who don't believe what I do, but it's hard being with people who are so close-minded to think that they are so right and you are so wrong.

It's the stage 3 and stage 4 conflict described by James Fowler.

Stage 3 need the "external authority" -- to give them spiritual grounding.

Stage 4 is becoming their own "internal authority" which is different. That is what gives them spiritual grounding.

The apples and oranges cannot easily get each other.

IMHO, it takes patience on the part of the Stage 4 person to let the Stage 3 people be. It's lonely, but calmer to let them figure it out at their own speed. Instead seek other Stage 4, 5, or 6 people to talk to about your spiritual health.

I get that it is disappointing when spouse, someone you want to be very close to, is not on the same page as you. But he can only understand you through his own filter. That's what happens with all people, at any stage. To you he seems close minded. To him, he is being as open as he can reach.

but when it comes to my husband, having each other's spirituality kept separate will be really difficult for me. Especially when he prays with the kids before bed and I don't, and my son asks me why.

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You are not able to say something like...


to the kids?
Galagirl

Journeyofawakening said:

My difficulty is that they are so close-minded. I would love to explain to them what I believe. I've tried to in some aspects but I just get accused of being deceived by listening to others or reading the 'wrong things'. The Bible is their absolute truth and the blinkers are on. They ask me why or how I believe what I do....and the only answer I have is 'intuition'. It just feels right. And that doesn't fly for them because they have the Bible as their reference point. Something physical that they can refer to. It's just...hard work. I don't mind not talking about it with my family but when it comes to my husband, having each other's spirituality kept separate will be really difficult for me. Especially when he prays with the kids before bed and I don't, and my son asks me why.

Sorry I just needed to rant there. It's helpful to get these thoughts out. I don't mind being with people who don't believe what I do, but it's hard being with people who are so close-minded to think that they are so right and you are so wrong.

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Well, you can call it intuition, bit I call it "thinking for yourself"... and also

"not ruining your life in THIS life, in the hope of a reward in another (unlikely) life."

So what if there is a book? there is no evidence to make any of it real, in fact the more science progresses, the more we know it is a full of lies.

Keep strong !! You are on the road to FREE thinking!

bassman said:

Keep strong !! You are on the road to FREE thinking!

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Amen.

Journeyofawakening said:

....they have the Bible as their reference point. Something physical that they can refer to.

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You might consider learning more about from where the Bible came and how the books were chosen. Even fundamentalists, who believe that the Bible is the word of God (of course, debatable, but that's the belief) have to concede that what we see included today is a curation. Many texts and contributors have been edited and censored over the centuries. Also, what we read today not only varies from English translation to English translation, but varies considerably from its original Hebrew, Aramaic, etc. Becoming an expert on the history of the Bible might really shore up your confidence in choosing to step away from a Bible based life. The more confident you are, the less you need to explain anything or convince anyone of your perspective.

Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, by (Church of England) Bishop John Spong
Who Wrote the Bible? Friedman
Who Wrote the New Testament? Mack
(Anything by) Elaine Pagels
(Anything by) Bart Ehrman
When God was a Woman
The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity
The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man

Check amazon or your library. I've read all these, and there are many more in this vein. Don't forget a New Oxford Annotated Bible. It's based on facts about translations, the culture of the times, the battling religions, and also is aware of who wrote what, when, sometimes where, and most importantly, why.

For a feminist take on the story of the "rape" of Dinah from Genesis, read the book The Red Tent. It's fiction based on her story from the women's pov.

Nadya said:

Amen.

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Irony!

Thank you everyone for your responses yet again. Researching info on the Bible sounds like a good idea. I will try to fit that in somehow!!

Galagirl, that is pretty much exactly what I say to my children. I just want them to make their own choices. My worry is that things will be more strained in the future raising of them. For example both my parents taught me that sex before marriage was completely wrong. I don't want to teach that to my kids but my husband will. I mean, we'll have this issue regardless of whether or not we stay together. But I need to figure out how to deal with all of that. At least it's a way in the future!

It's not just that it's disappointing that he's an apple and I'm an orange (haha), it's that spirituality is important to me and always has been, and it feels like something we can no longer share. I don't know how it will affect us in the long run.

Re (from Journeyofawakening):

"They ask me why or how I believe what I do ... and the only answer I have is 'intuition.' It just feels right. And that doesn't fly for them because they have the Bible as their reference point."

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Meanwhile, the Bible itself rests on a foundation of nothing. "It's just true. Everyone knows that."

Re:

"I don't mind not talking about it with my family but when it comes to my husband, having each other's spirituality kept separate will be really difficult for me. Especially when he prays with the kids before bed and I don't, and my son asks me why."

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Personally I'd recommending answering your son simply and directly. "Dad believes; I don't." Then your son is in a better position to decide for himself whether to believe, not perceiving belief or nonbelief as a sin.

Re:

"I don't mind being with people who don't believe what I do, but it's hard being with people who are so close-minded to think that they are so right and you are so wrong."

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Yeah I hate that too.

Re (from Post #118):

"My worry is that things will be more strained in the future raising of them. For example both my parents taught me that sex before marriage was completely wrong. I don't want to teach that to my kids but my husband will."

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The best I can think of is to tell the kids: "Dad believes this; I believe that." Then you be the parent (if he won't) who lets the kids decide for themselves which beliefs to choose. Sure they might choose Dad's belief system which is frustrating, but, in the end, that's their right to do so.

Not to minimize your dilemma, but you have to make the best of a bad situation.

I just want them to make their own choices. My worry is that things will be more strained in the future raising of them. For example both my parents taught me that sex before marriage was completely wrong. I don't want to teach that to my kids but my husband will. I mean, we'll have this issue regardless of whether or not we stay together. But I need to figure out how to deal with all of that. At least it's a way in the future!

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You could be clear about prefacing it with...


Like


But you can lay out that template NOW for how you want to talk to your kids. About anything -- you don't have to wait till it is "premarital sex" as a topic. It could be about pet ownership, driving, make up, dating -- lots of stuff that kids take on board and deal with.

I just want them to make their own choices.

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IME, they do. Whether you like what they pick or not. We cannot live other people's lives out for them. All you can do as a parent is offer guidance and opinions along the way.

Galagirl