happy to find this place! :)

Hi All,

I'm Liz - I've been theoretically poly (and/or poly-friendly)* all my life. I started being deliberately poly sometime in my mid 20s.

I originally chose to live my life polyamorously because I take some friend relationships (with like-minded friends) as seriously as I take my romantic relationship. If I choose to make a life-time commitment (or a long-term commitment) to a friend, I wanted the romantic partners in my life to understand that that friend relationship (or relationships) would be just as important as my romantic relationship (s).

I dated a lot of people with that "now that we've been dating six months, I'm your priority, not your friends" kind of people. And I know that they feel that way to deliberately be shitty; that just seems to be the way that most people were socialized.

My partner Jonathan and his partner Lora and I all moved in together nearly a year ago. I started a blog to chronicle how that went - I wasn't able to find many resources on V Poly Relationships where everybody lives together. As time went on, our relationships went in directions that I didn't anticipate (or only did as a "things will get really bad if XXX happens"), and the blog became a kind of sanity-saver. My biggest concern right now that Lora has been (and sometimes still continues to be) verbally abusive and attempts to control to our shared partner Jon. Lora had a really rough young adulthood from about 12-19, and she definitely has a lot a shit to work through with that. I have a lot of compassion for her, for what she's been through. Not that it excuses the abuse - it's just...at least it's based in having a lot of shitty, abusive relationships inflicted on her, and very few healthy relationships to draw experience from.

The important thing is that over time, she does appear to be getting better and better. And she's also zeroing in on a therapist to start seeing (her first therapist ever!).

Anyways, in addition to the blog (and reading a number of poly blogs), I really wanted to find a place to talk poly (and get into those things with people who will hopefully respond with thoughts). It was so nice to stumble across this place!

Before I met Jon, I had a committed friend-relationship with a woman; Rachel. For a while, it looked like Rachel, me, two of Rachel's other primary partners (Rob and Jessica), and Jessica's other primary partner George would form a polycule, which Jon and Lora got involved in too. Very long-story short: Jessica turned out to be an extremely manipulative, "mean girls", "but the polycule must agree/get permission for ALL things" (even if it was severely detrimental to some people in the polycule) kind of person. Rachel was unwilling to call her on about 80% of her BS and George seemed totally unwilling to call her on any of her BS; so I, Jon, and Lora walked away from that. As far as I know, Rachel, Rob, Jessica, and George may still be making a polycule; if they do...I hope it goes well, and if it doesn't, not my problem!

I've had a number of other poly relationships, but my relationship with Jon, and my relationship with Rachel are definitely the longest, most change-inducing, "left an imprint on me" relationships.

That is a brief synopsis of how I came to be here, and what I'm doing now. I look forward to learning and reading here, and sharing the things that I've experienced.

- Liz

ps: about being theoretically poly - I read the definitions board on what "theoretically poly" meant and I hadn't heard that interpretation before. What me (and my friends) mean by that usually is someone who has dating monogamously for most of their life, because they seemed to be surrounded by monogamous people, but has always inherently agreed with/been comfortable with the idea of being polyamorous. For me, it just took a while to find poly people to be poly with!

Greetings Liz,
Welcome to our forum. Please feel free to lurk, browse, etc.

I happen to be in a V relationship where the three of us live together, so, that's something you and I have in common. I guess I was the Lora in my household. I'm doing better now, probably in part thanks to our discovering Zyprexa.

I've enjoyed reading your posts on other threads, and look forward to getting to know you better. Sounds like you've had quite a journey to get where you are today! May your stay amongst us be a pleasurable one.

Sincerely,
Kevin T., "official greeter"

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Welcome aboard!

Thank you, Kevin! : )

Lora has seen a psychiatrist for years - she has several official diagnoses that she has medication for. In fact, the most recent medicine tweaks have definitely put in her the best place that I've seen her be in.

I have started reading some of the "Threads Worth Reading" posts that pertain to my situation. Honestly, I'm debating if I should stop, because I'm having a very depressed/angry reaction to them.

I know life's not a contest, but at this moment, reading about how well some Vs are doing after having a morning where Lora was stressed because she was late (and she was late because she was slow getting ready. Jon and I were both ready ten minutes before Lora) to work and then spent the entire car ride into work sniping at Jon and picking fights with him because she stressed about being late (he dropped both of us off at work today)...I'm feeling really down.

Lately I've really been wondering if beyond the medication/mental health problems, Lora's just not a person that I'm ever going to particularly like, because of her personality. I haven't made up my mind 100%, and I am trying to keep an open mind. But after this morning, it's hard to not feel aggravated towards her. I'm debating if the answer to that is that the next time Lora is running late, I should say something like "You know what? I think I want to drive in myself so I can stop somewhere on the way home." so I don't have to listen to her on the way in.

Ugh, but then I think, I should be able to just honestly say "I don't want to ride in a car with Lora this morning, because she's going to be a bitchy, sniping asshole just like she always is when she's running late" (or a more polite version of that) but I don't say that because then she would get EXTREMELY upset about it, and probably start crying and...it would be a mess.

Suddenly, I'm wondering if I have some kind of watered-down Stockholm syndrome. I know that sounds crazy, but I was just thinking about how things have been better with Lora lately, and this little voice in my head say "Yeah, it's better, but think about how much smoother and more pleasant your life was before you lived with Lora" and I did a mental comparison to what I consider "really good" now and what I considered "really good" before I lived with Lora, and today's "really good" is LizziE-of-the-Past's "shitty-ish" kind of day.

Aaaaaand now I'm kind of freaking out. I think I'm going to push some widgets around for work and try to...not run screaming.

Re:

"I have started reading some of the 'Threads Worth Reading' posts that pertain to my situation. Honestly, I'm debating if I should stop, because I'm having a very depressed/angry reaction to them."

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I would say stop at least for the time being; they aren't going anywhere and you can always read them later.

It sounds like Lora still has a long ways to go before exhibiting some normalcy. She needs to try some new meds, and probably get some more counseling. Alas, the road with her won't be quick or easy.

As for work, if she can't get ready faster, then she needs to get up earlier. Sometime you should probably have a talk with her about that.

Sorry you're experiencing these difficulties with her.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

She hasn't done talk therapy before, and I honestly don't know at this point if it's a med problem of a "her personality" problem. Being a jerky person can't be fixed by medication, you know?

And, for the record, I also distinguish between personality/behavior traits she has that I'm may not like, but aren't "bad" and personality/behavior traits that are bad.

For instance, she's extremely loud. Her indoor voice is most people's outdoor "screaming to call the kids in for dinner" voice. I'm not a fan of that, but it's not *bad*.

But when her feelings are hurt and she tells Jon to fuck off because they've just had a misunderstanding and instead of asking him for clarification, she just goes right into assuming he's being hurtful and reacts hurtfully to "get even", that's bad. And hopefully something that therapy can help.

About her running late in the morning - she already gets up an hour before Jon or me, so it's not like we can wake her up earlier. She just procrastinates. About two weeks ago, after she ran late the 3rd time in a row, I let her know this thing I do - I have a M-F alarm that goes off 15 minutes before I have to leave for work. When that goes off, I know it's time to pack up whatever I'm doing, get my shoes and coat on, and go. She said she was going to try it, but I don't know if she has, and...sometimes it starts to feel like Jon and I are parenting her (something that I've spoken to him about). I'm all for all people in a polycule sharing a burden and helping each other out, but a lot of the time, it feels like if I don't maintain good boundaries of "Lora needs to figure out how to be an adult for herself" I end up helping, assisting, parenting, keeping after her to do things in a way that I neither want to do, nor feel is healthy for her.

When I only look at pieces of it, it feels manageable. But when I look at the whole picture, it feels overwhelming and incredibly hard.

I did have a talk with Jon several months ago about how my understanding (before we moved in together) was that Lora definitely still had some growing and work to do, but mostly had her shit together. But the reality is that she still has many more problems than abilities to handle those problems and manage her own life and that living with her de facto makes me, to some extent, responsible for helping her and Jon manage her life. I was really angry about that. I still am, at times (like now). And now that I know the situation is vastly different from my understanding before we all moved in together, I'm trying to make the best of it that I can. However, I'm aware that as much as *I* try to make the best of it that I can, and as much as Jon also tries his best to be supportive and awesome, as long as Lora frequently behaves unpleasantly or selfishly or immaturely, there's only so well that things can go.

I just really hope that once school is over for her in a month, she starts doing the talk therapy and really makes progress with it.

Re:

"I honestly don't know at this point if it's a med problem of a 'her personality' problem."

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I think it's always hard to draw a line between the two.

Re:

"I also distinguish between personality/behavior traits she has that I may not like, but aren't 'bad,' and personality/behavior traits that are bad."

Click to expand...

Of course.

Re:

"For instance, she's extremely loud. Her indoor voice is most people's outdoor 'screaming to call the kids in for dinner' voice. I'm not a fan of that, but it's not *bad.*"

Click to expand...

Wow, I can't think of many people who would like that trait ...

Re:

"About her running late in the morning -- she already gets up an hour before Jon or me, so it's not like we can wake her up earlier."

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No, she would have to take care of that herself. It's called setting the alarm for earlier. (Not that getting up earlier wouldn't result in her procrastinating more.)

I assume you're sharing house and home with her in the hopes that she'll improve with therapy. Have you thought about what to do if she doesn't improve?

kdt26417 said:

Re:
No, she would have to take care of that herself. It's called setting the alarm for earlier. (Not that getting up earlier wouldn't result in her procrastinating more.)

Click to expand...

That's the thing - no matter how early she sets the alarm to get up, unless she gets the procrastination under control, it won't help. I gave her the one tip I have for getting out of the house on time - she needs to figure it out herself (and stop taking it out on Jon when she doesn't).

kdt26417 said:

Re:
I assume you're sharing house and home with her in the hopes that she'll improve with therapy. Have you thought about what to do if she doesn't improve?

Click to expand...

We'll separate homes.

When I fully realized how unable she is to take care of a large number of aspects of her life (which started to seriously impact my life and also me and Jon's ability to spend quality time together), I told Jon and Lora that if things didn't improve, we'd no longer be able to live together. It wasn't meant as a threat, it was a heads up that if they were happy living the way we'd been living, then they could continue to do so, but I needed to make a different kind of home for myself.

Things have improved since then. But (and this is where I get bogged down) they got so bad that even a large amount of improvement still feels to me like we're in "this is a shitty living situation" territory when I start to compare it to previous living situations. It is *vastly* better than it was before. It still needs let's say 200% more improvement for it to feel like an actual good living situation for me.

I honestly have no idea if the three of us can get there. We're all still willing to see if we can get there. I'm not entirely sure if it feels as bad to Jon and Lora as it does to me. I know that Lora says that she feels horrible about the way she lashes out in anger (and I know that Jon hates it too). I know that she's improved in some ways. But in other things...

The other day, Jon and I were sharing a glass of wine and fooling around. I'd barely had two sips from the glass, so he was kidding with me and holding it up to my face going "drink drink drink or you'll wear it!" (we were both on-board with this being amusing). Lora came into the room and said "that's not fair. why are you pressing her to drink, but not me? you're always telling me to stop drinking. why don't you kid around with ME like that"

Lora has a really immature way of handling alcohol. If we don't keep an eye on her, she gets puking-and-hysterical crying/starting fights drunk. Jon typically tells her when she's cut off, and when she tries to get me on her side I always back him because I don't think getting puking drunk is funny (go figure). I've watched Jon say to her "ok, that's your last drink for a while, and take it slow on that one, because you've had a lot" and then she'll stare at him and down half the drink defiantly to make some kind of point. It's just...really not awesome to be around.

So anyways, what Jon said to Lora when she asked that was that it was the first drink that he and I shared of the evening (it was), and that I'd barely had any of it. And he kept repeating that when she tried to question him further and then changed the subject - I would imagine because mentioning how immature and dangerous she is about alcohol (so she really doesn't need any encouragement to drink ever) would have led to a fight between them. I stayed totally unengaged from the conversation because she didn't ask me, and I honestly couldn't think of anything to say other than "Well, I don't get falling down drunk because I drink moderately, so joking with me like this isn't going to end in puking or a screaming fight".

That's an example of the kind of situation that comes up regularly where I think to myself "All the therapy in the world isn't going to help with this". If it ends up that even after a ton of therapy, living with Lora full-time still doesn't feel good to me, then we'll have to figure something else out. Maybe getting a duplex, where Jon can live with us both, and we'll spend some nights of the week all together and some he'll spend with one or the other of us.

I'm not really sure. The only thing I'm really sure about is that I'm REALLY looking forward to Lora starting therapy and seeing what that does.

You're hoping that if you can just hang in there for another month, things will start to improve again.

There's also a chance that you moving in has contributed to her behaviour in some way. I imagine that it's been a big change for her too, and that if she's feeling stressed and doesn't have as much space or privacy as she's been used to in the past then it could be contributing to her snapping all the time. I should definitely make it clear that this is just speculation on my part - it's just that literally everyone I know who struggles with mental health issues to any significant degree all seem to really need time alone to regroup and, well, in the words of one dear friend, 'be crazy on my own for a bit'.

That being said, no, abusive behaviour is never acceptable. However, you've stuck it out for over a year now - I'd hang in there and give her a chance with the therapy. Overall you guys seem to be doing great - and you seem to have a really strong handle on things. You've figured out that you could consider setting your own boundaries a little better (e.g. by driving yourself to work) and you know, at the end of the day, Jon is the one who needs to challenge that behaviour. Does it bother him as much as you? Or is this just a feature of their relationship/interaction? My ex and her other partner used to freak me out because they had such an argumentative and confrontational style with each other - I'm talking shouting matches in public places that would leave all their friends with their mouths agape - and yet it didn't bother them in the slightest. They weren't like that with others, and in a way, they just didn't take it to heart. Ten minutes later they'd be loving on each other again. It was just their way.

Anyway, that might be way off base on all fronts, but something to consider. And…welcome!

Good points, tenK.

Not exactly.

Things have continued to improve for...let's see, over two months now. In the past few weeks, Lora and I have had several evenings where we've hung out together and just chatted for hours at a time. That is the first time we've done that regularly since moving in together.

Part of the reason why we haven't spent a lot of time together before is some of the hard shit that's gone on, which I withdrew over. Some of it is because her work and/or school tends to be crazy when my work slows down, and vice versa. Also, she used to do temp work, with changing schedules. There was a four month period where her temp work had her going in at 6am most days. So five days a week, she was going to bed right around the time that I was coming home from work. It made it hard to connect.

Anyways, bout the talking:

Sometimes, that's really nice. I learn things about her. She learns things about me.

Sometimes, we have a shared incomprehension of the other person's feelings/way of handling things. Nothing that's insurmountable (so far), but it can feel...hard.

In the past month, Lora has finally found a good job with a good environment that pays her a nearly-living wage (and with OT, will pay a living wage), with is a first for her. She's sucking at getting to work on time, but she's finally actually working a full time + job and seems to be handling it, even while writing final papers and getting ready for final exams. She's said that it's more work and stress than she's ever felt before.

Despite that, she has continued to do better in fighting with Jon. By "do better", I mean that she is less frequently becoming attacking/insulting/threatening the relationship that she had done a few months ago.

Those are both great, hopeful things.

On the flip side, she is still a snipey asshole at times. She still drinks immaturely. She still does a bunch of other things that are really not awesome, but I don't want to get into, for brevity.

So it's definitely continued to be better. But it's still nowhere near good, much less great.

When I look at the improvement over the past few months, I feel hopeful and see good things. But when I compare her to...most of my friends, let's say, the kind of people that I choose to surround myself with, then she's...got far more problems than the people that I typically let into my life. That stresses me out, because I am choosey with my friends for a reason.

On Jon's end of things, he thinks she's a fantastic person, even though she has a lot of problems. He has said that during their relationship, she's made a lot of strides and continues to work on herself and get better at communicating and not flying off the handle over everything, and becoming less verbally abusive. He has also said (both to her and me) that he expects she'll continue to improve, because she wants to (which she agrees with).

The side of me that believes that we take people as they are, not as the person we think they'll change into is really disturbed by this. But I have seen her improve, and I do believe she is sincere about continuing to learn how to handle and overcome her emotional problems, based on what I have seen.

I expect that progress to continue. I also expect there will be backslides. But I do keep track of how things are going and if we hit a point where there is no progress being made, and my feelings on the person she is in that moment is "I don't want to live with this person", then we'll stop living together.

Does that make sense? The improvement needs to be a regular thing, not something that happens in little dribbles every month or so. I'm trying to honor where she is on her path, while also staying true to what I need. Even though it's way better than it was a few months ago, it's still really hard. If it gets too hard, or if I realize she and I are just too different to live comfortably together full-time, then we'll need to figure something else out.

So you need to keep seeing ongoing improvement in order to keep living under the same roof, is that right?

tenK said:

There's also a chance that you moving in has contributed to her behaviour in some way. I imagine that it's been a big change for her too, and that if she's feeling stressed and doesn't have as much space or privacy as she's been used to in the past then it could be contributing to her snapping all the time. I should definitely make it clear that this is just speculation on my part - it's just that literally everyone I know who struggles with mental health issues to any significant degree all seem to really need time alone to regroup and, well, in the words of one dear friend, 'be crazy on my own for a bit'.

That being said, no, abusive behaviour is never acceptable. However, you've stuck it out for over a year now - I'd hang in there and give her a chance with the therapy. Overall you guys seem to be doing great - and you seem to have a really strong handle on things. You've figured out that you could consider setting your own boundaries a little better (e.g. by driving yourself to work) and you know, at the end of the day, Jon is the one who needs to challenge that behaviour. Does it bother him as much as you? Or is this just a feature of their relationship/interaction? My ex and her other partner used to freak me out because they had such an argumentative and confrontational style with each other - I'm talking shouting matches in public places that would leave all their friends with their mouths agape - and yet it didn't bother them in the slightest. They weren't like that with others, and in a way, they just didn't take it to heart. Ten minutes later they'd be loving on each other again. It was just their way.

Anyway, that might be way off base on all fronts, but something to consider. And…welcome!

Click to expand...

So interestingly enough, she has way more privacy than she had in the last place they lived. She has her own private bedroom that is "invite only" for Jon and me. The next time we move, we're hoping to move from the 2 bedroom place we have now to a 3 bedroom place so we can each have that. But we've made her ability to have privacy and a place to be totally alone a priority, because it is so important for her mental health.

I'm sure the move was stressful in that it was a move, and moving is stressful. It was weird in that when we all moved in together, she was working, and when she was working, things went pretty smoothly. It was after she quit temping in mid-December that things started to go downhill, with them hitting the low point somewhere between mid-January and mid-February. I have a theory that not having a job to take up time and energy (and nervous energy) caused all that energy to come out in very negative ways. There were a lot of evenings where she and Jon had half-screaming fights (her screaming, him staying calm) over...it doesn't matter what, but at some point she would tearfully tell him that while she WAS bothered by what they were fighting about, the main problem was that she was stressed about not having a job. That is one of the major negatives of living with her. When she gets stressed about something, she starts picking and attacking Jon about everything and anything when it's really that she's stressed about something and can't seem to handle being stressed or unhappy without trying to make him stressed and unhappy.

My understanding (from talking to Jon) is that the fighting doesn't bother him AS MUCH as it bothers me, but that it does bother him a lot under certain circumstances. When she uses abusive language, that really upsets him. When she is in really negative headspace and takes anything he says and looks for a way to interpret it negatively, that upsets him. That is she far more fightingly argumentative about her opinions than I am (I don't really fight. I'll disagree, I'll debate, I'll argue passionately, but getting into an actual fight is a rarity for me) only *really* bothers him when he's tired or had a long day or just has low energy and isn't up for a fight.

Anyways, thank you for the warm welcome and chipping in on thoughts! One of the biggest things that stresses me out is...I've been living polyamorously for a number of years. These are the worst metamour problems I've ever had. My gut response to most things is "What can you do better?" directed at myself. With Lora, a lot of it is...hopefully she will improve, and if not, I'm doing all I can; if it doesn't work, then we need to stop living together. That feels really scary to me, and knowing that it'd break Jon's heart if the three of us don't work out living together is also really hard. And of course, I worry that saying I can't live with Lora (no matter how diplomatically presented) is going to cause her to be really angry and lash out at me and/or Jon or possibly try to break us up to get "even". I feel pretty certain she wouldn't do something like that, but I'm not 100% sure, and that is also a scary thought.

kdt26417 said:

So you need to keep seeing ongoing improvement in order to keep living under the same roof, is that right?

Click to expand...

Yep. Which is happening so far.

You are far better at being concise than I am.

LizziE, I really feel for you in your situation. I don't think I could handle a metamour acting like that towards someone I love. Especially not for as long as you have!

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and you let me know if I'm completely off base. I wonder if some of your anger is related to all the walking-on-eggshells you do around her. You want to assert your needs ("I'm not driving in with them, I want peace and quiet before work"), but like you said, you're tip-toeing around what you feel like you can say to her and what you can't. Understandable, yes, but perhaps some of your anger is directed at yourself for all the parenting you're doing. Perhaps you don't feel good playing the parent. I know I wouldn't. You know you can't control her behavior, but can you control more of your own? The waking up/procrastination thing - she is an adult and regardless of her mental health, this is her responsibility. What if you stopped taking responsibility for her? Stopped parenting her in the way that you sound like you dislike doing? Changed your behavior for what worked for YOU? Instead of accommodating all of her needs, see if you can live the life you want in that household. She's going to be pissy at him joking with you about alcohol? Ask Jon to be a better hinge and stop involving you, or leave the room. You don't want to witness the hurtful things she says to Jon? Start driving your own car (no need to justify why, it likely will just add fire to the flames). She can't handle her liquor? That's on her - you can always leave the room when she's trashed and puking. If you don't want to be her mother, what if you stopped? Treat her like the adult she should be (not as fragile - not unkind to her mental functioning and recent growth). No JADE-ing with her (justify, argue, defend, explain; see https://outofthefog.net/CommonNonBehaviors/JADE.html for more information). I suspect either things will become evident that the three of you living together is not working OR she steps up and realized that she cannot depend on you to take care of her and must do some inner growth on her own. I wonder if that might spur things along, while leaving you feeling better about yourself.

Again, I empathize with your situation - it must be terribly difficult. I know it's easier said than done to change your interactions with her, but I hope you can decide what is best for you in all this.

Hi Reflections,

Thank you for the thoughts. I definitely feel anger about the parenting, which is part of why I try to step out of it as much as possible. And I feel anger about holding my tongue - because as long as I don't speak up, she doesn't know how much certain things bother me, and they're really not going to get any better.

I constantly debate with myself whether or not I should be more proactive about walking out/speaking up. I'm probably doing something really dumb right now in my head - I hesitate to engage with Lora about certain things because I have the impression that they could lead to a huge fight between Lora and I. I know (from hearing/seeing Lora/Jon fighting) that Lora says abusive shitty things when she fights. I've told Jon (and I know for myself) that if Lora says the abusive, shitty things to me that she says to Jon, we're going to have to stop living together - I won't live with someone who treats me like that. And because I know that not living together full-time anymore would be heartbreaking to Jon (and to me - not actually sure how Lora would feel about it), I really back down from anything that could get us there (not to mention the financial impact, which would also be very significant, though not nearly as bad as the emotional fall-out).

And to be clear - doing something like walking out of the room could potentially lead to something like that. Because they would both want to know why I walked out of the room, and I'd tell them, and then if Lora had a problem with me having a problem, that could lead to a fight.

So I've been backing down with the hope that once Lora starts therapy, she'll start improving on these things, and we won't ever have to get to that point of splitting homes because of her behavior.

All that said, last night Jon mentioned to me that he and Lora have a couples counseling in a few weeks when Lora's finals are over. BUT - no solo therapy for Lora yet. Why? Because she's afraid.

When he told me that last night, I didn't say much because...I didn't want to start flipping out. I needed some time to gather my thoughts. But I have, and I'm writing him an email this morning, letting him know that - thought I haven't expressly told him lately (but have repeatedly told him in the past) - I AM still walking around on eggshells around her, and I am getting to the end of my limit on that. So hearing that she isn't scheduling solo therapy yet because she's afraid...he needs to know that the other side of that equation is me who is getting completely sick and tired of this, and WILL run out of patience, compassion, and tongue-holding. "I'm not going to start therapy yet because I'm afraid" was never put on the table as an option for Lora, and I'm not about to say "oh, ok. no biggie. let's wait until she's not afraid" because 1) she's never going to be not-afraid and 2) I'm being patient and compassionate for a reason. The reason is my belief that sh wants to get better, and is going to use all the tools she has at her disposal to get better. The moment that she's not doing that - I'm not wasting my time waiting to see if/when she decides she can handle therapy. Did that with a past partner. He was NEVER ready, and perfectly happy to keep just being shitty and moaning about how he *knew* therapy would help when it suited him, but never actually getting it and doing the work he needed. Not doing that again.

Because...here's another example from last night. Lora was vacuuming, in the hallway. Jon and I were in one of the bedrooms. She yelled him a question over the vacuum. He couldn't hear it, and yelled back that he couldn't here it - she should ask him when the vacuums off. So she finished, turned it off, asked him, and he answered. So far so good, right?

Ten minutes later, she says "you know, you didn't have to snap at me about the vacuum". He says "what are you talking about?" and she says "when you wanted me to ask after I turned the vacuum off - you jumped all over me and snapped at me. you didn't have to do that". He says "I'm sorry, love. I wasn't yelling at you, I was yelling over the vacuum". There's a few more back & forths where she insisted that he was yelling at her meanly, and he apologized and insisted he was just yelling to be heard over the vacuum.

Happily, in this case, it ended there. I think it was in part because he apologized repeatedly - for something he didn't do! But this is an example of the kind of thing that can then turn into Lora going off on a "you are so mean to me. this is a sign that our relationship is bad. you're always awful to me" tangent that can take anywhere from half an hour to HOURS to diffuse.

And this is their normal. This is now MY normal. And it's the kind of thing that I need a reality check on with other people, because I'm not crazy for thinking this is bad, right? Not when it can happen daily, right? Even multiple times a day, when she's feeling really insecure and sensitive.

Like, the moment that Lora comes and says to Jon "You didn't have to do XXX and be nasty to me" my blood pressure spikes and I start getting anxious, because past history has shown that it could turn into a 10 minute back and forth where Jon apologizes five times and it diffuses, or an hours-long battle about how awful Jon is and how Lora feels so jumped on/attacked/awful and their relationship is bad, she has concerns.

So I wrote him an email about that today. I'm waiting to find out what his day is going to be like today (he and Lora don't work today, and are going biking) to figure out when to send it. I'd like to send it after he and Lora get back from the biking, ideally and hour or two before I head home, so that he and I can talk about it when I get home.

Am I too sensitive, getting stressed about things like the vacuum thing?

Anyways, fears about fighting with her or not, I'm getting in the feeling (both from internal pressure and the things ya'll have mentioned), that I need to start either pushing back more, or...something. Something needs to improve faster. Or we need to stop living together.

I don't think you're being too sensitive. That might be their normal, but it doesn't have to be yours. I think it's up to you to change your behavior. i wonder if you could sit down with them and let them know the impact of witnessing their arguments. And then just let them know that you'll be leaving the room/house whenever this is going on. Not up for debate, a simple statement of "If X happens (regardless of who's to blame), I will do Y." Perhaps even plan to leave the house for a few hours after this conversation to avoid getting into an argument with them and leave them with their thoughts.

This is probably tangential, but it reminds me of times when my parents would fight in front of me. I couldn't stop them from fighting, nor could I get them to change if they weren't motivated to do so (or go to therapy if they weren't 100% motivated to make changes). They were going to continue arguing regardless of how much I walked around eggshells. Instead of listening to it all and/or getting looped in, you have the choice to leave. That may be for 5 minutes, that may be to live somewhere else ultimately.

I'd also emphasize Jon's role in all of this. He may recognize that it's not healthy, but it doesn't sound like he's doing anything to change it outside of encouraging therapy. Roger and I have definitely had our share of arguments, even over small miscommunications like the vacuum incident you mentioned, but one of our rules is that none of these arguments happen in the presence of other people. Step into another room, go for a drive to talk, whatever it takes, because for both of us, we don't want our relationship difficulties to impact other people. And we're both very motivated to work on our communication (I go to therapy and we have weekly check-ins about various relationship things) so that these arguments are less likely to pop up in the future. If they are not willing to do this for you, then I think you'll have to decide if the stress of witnessing their unhealthy relationship dynamics and tip-toeing around is worth being able to live with Jon.

Just a few more thoughts.

Re (from LizziE):

"Something needs to improve faster. Or we need to stop living together."

Click to expand...

Do you know which signs to look for to tell if things are improving faster?

That all makes total sense, and I'm thinking about a practical way to put it into place, because the fights often evolve so...organically...and it's like...literally anything could set her off, which is part of why pretty much EVERYTHING stresses me out.

I would tell them though, that I think they need to leave because

1) They're the ones fighting. It just seems like if they're going to fight, they should be considering enough to move their fight elsewhere (though I could see the flip side of being told that if I'M the person being bothered, I could go elsewhere, but luckily there's reason #2..)

2) I have a health problem right now that has caused me to have limited mobility and energy. I've been a several-years-and-counting process to get to the root of it. I think I'm *finally* seeing the right kind of doctor, but even if it gets diagnosed tomorrow, just handling making it to work every day and taking care of my basic needs is really hard. So I'm not going anywhere right now.

(and yes, that is a thing that makes all of this all the more stressful. I could talk about that for paragraphs, but I bet you can imagine all the ways that that makes all these issues all the more crappy.)

How much Jon does (other than push therapy) depends on how he's doing mentally. He's working a lot now, and that really drains him. When he's really tired, he seems to get more into "keep the peace" mode. When he's not tired, he's more likely to not apologize and explain to Lora WHY he's not apologizing and will pretty much keep (calmly) fighting with her until she stops insisting that he's being awful/mean/hurtful/etc.

Other than that...therapy is going to be a good place for HIM to learn ways to handle Lora, and how to respond to her behavior so that he is still respectful and compassionate towards her, but also (to be crude) involves less putting up with her shit. I hope.

And you know, that is part of why this bothers me so much. My mom is a lot like Lora (it's scary really, though my dad is mostly not like Jon), and she's the one in my family dynamic who would go after my dad and be nasty in a similar way to the way that Lora does (my mom's actually way worse). I have told both Jon and Lora that after growing up with my mom screaming at my dad all the time, this is like, THE situation I don't want to be in as an adult.

I haven't reminded them of this lately though. Maybe I should.

To answer your question, Kevin - the email that I sent to Jon clearly stated that "Lora isn't going to start therapy right now because she's afraid" isn't acceptable to me. Lora is going to need to start therapy sometime in the next month or two, and I am going to need an actual concrete date for that. I told him that if that wasn't possible, then I don't see enough hope for improvement to continue to be patient with her and compassionate towards her WHILE living with her - we'll need to separate homes again.

So that would be a sign of things "improving faster". Another sign (which therapy would help with) is if Lora stops phrasing things as "Jon did a bad thing to me; I am now justified in lashing out at him". I'm actually debating if I should just say something about that now - but the problems with that are 1) taking responsibility for helping "parent" Lora 2) I don't want to get involved in their fights.

Other than Lora going to therapy, the main thing would be her behavior changing so that she no longer jumps all over Jon's shit any time she perceives that something was said/done to harm her. Breaking out of that cycle of "everything is about me, and people are always out to hurt me". I know that would take TIME. I am honestly not sure how much time I'm still willing/able to give. I am willing to keep hanging in there and trying to see...provided that she starts therapy soon. If not, that tells me that her fear is more important to her than getting help and being a better partner to Jon, and being an overall better person. If she wants to make that decision, I can't stop her. Like reflections said, I can only really change my behavior - and my behavior is going to be to no longer live with her and Jon full-time she doesn't get solo therapy like she said she was going to do months ago.