Just LR

Cleaning/Sorting/Separating

In light of the obvious issues, I have been cleaning the house, sorting things that are OBVIOUSLY mine or his (high school yearbooks, clothing) and getting rid of stuff that is obviously not important to either of us (partial bottles of cleaner we never use, etc.).

In the process I came across an itemized list that Maca wrote. When he broke a series of boundary agreements in his pursuit of the 24 yo drama queen, followed by medical issues that required me to go off my medication for a short period of time, I dropped into a suicidal depression and all hell broke loose.

In January 2012, as this was going down, we agreed to renegotiate the boundaries. That is when we came up with the basic agreement we've had since. There have been a few minor changes, primarily things where I had said I wasn't okay with something occurring and later said "You know, I was being insecure and unreasonable and I'm willing to take that off the list." There wasn't anything specifically beneficial to me; it was all things that were important to him.

At any rate, I found this today, and my overwhelming thought was, "THIS is the man I THOUGHT I was talking to in September when I brought up pursuing a FWB. I wonder where he went."

(continued in next post)

"What I want for our relationship" by Maca (circa 2012)

1. I want equality. Meaning, I want it to be acceptable and ok that I'm able to do and be what you are doing and being. If it's ok for you to have another love then it should be ok for me too. If it's ok for you to have sex with another then it should be ok for me to do the same. If you can take a month long trip away from me then it should be ok for me to do that as well. Equality in ALL respects.

2. Assurance that we will always have each other as life long partners. Meaning, that we can let go of the worry and concern that goes with not knowing that we will always stay together. We can live a happy and full life, even if parts of that fulfillment come from an outside source, and always be able to be assured that we will have each other to share our lives with.

3. I want a drama free life. Not just in our relationship but in all of life. I realize that we can't control everything and everyone but I want US to eliminate the drama that we can. And when we have drama starting in our lives, we agree to limiting or stopping its effect to us.

4. I want acceptance and to move out of the past. Meaning, I want us to accept that we have differences and flaw's. That we all make mistakes and that we probably will continue making them. I want to forgive our past mistakes and stop harboring those against each other. I want you and I to be able to accept that we are different and that even if we don't understand or agree with the way each other feels or the things we do, that it's ok and that we will still be there and love each other.

5. I want us to just be able to be together and enjoy the fact that we have each other. To be happy with the time we spend together whether it's productive or fucking off, whether its romantic or mundane life stuff, whether its exciting or boring. I want us to be happy just "being". I want us to be able to be confident in each others commitment of "forever".

6. I want you as my first and primary love. I want us to put each other above others, always. I want it acknowledged and accepted we are primary and that, that is non negotiable. If anyone else is wanting to be with either of us they will have to accept that fact.
That being said, I want us to not purposefully hold each other back from what we want or need in life. I want us to bring up what we are wanting from each other in regards to other loves, from the start. Not waiting till the other person is already in a relationship and then changing the rules. This goes back to the equality that I want between us. If it's important enough to us, it should be addressed now, not just when it effects us.

7. I want our lives to flow, together, towards our future. I want us to finish the boundary list so that we can better understand how each other see's relationships and better understand what we are wanting and hoping for in our relationship and in our extra relationships.
That being said, I want to get to the point that we don't have to have so many "rules". Our goal should be to have full and healthy lives and relationships. Not to limit and put restraints on each other. I understand the need to have a base to start from, where we can build trust and faith in each other, but I don't want to just leave it at that. Our goal should be to have less need for rules and limits and have more faith and trust.

There is more but my hand is tired. I'll pick up where i left off in a little while.

(There was nothing else after that statement.)

When he lied and cheated and snuck around behind my back, this is what he wrote that he wanted. I negotiated honestly with him and we created a boundary agreement at that time. I followed it and didn't break it. That was January 2012.

In September 2014, I brought up having a FWB (which was allowed per the boundary agreement), something that, in fact, was one of the triggers for what he wrote. He wanted to be free to have FWBs and FBs, and I found that nerve wracking. But I agreed because it was important to him, and I agreed with what he wrote about trust and faith and accepting our differences.

When I brought it up, all hell broke loose. As I've already written, he confronted Panther (who had no clue I had any interest). Then divorce got brought up. Then fighting. Then he sent Panther messages, asking if he was happy that he was destroying a family/marriage, etc., etc. Then more fighting. Then he threatened Panther with bodily harm if he came on the property for any reason (not that he had been).

Then months of back and forth, while he basically told me I needed to choose, but if "you chose to fuck him I'm out."

So here we stand...

He asks me every time he gets pissed again: "What were you expecting?"

Well... I was expecting that you were going to live up to the words you wrote about what YOU wanted in a relationship. That you were here "no matter what." That even if you didn't agree with what I felt or did, you weren't going to walk out. That you weren't going to place limitations on my other relationships beyond what we had agreed to within our boundaries.

What I did NOT expect was for you to throw out all of our hard work to put the past behind us, to build a healthier, happier, more accepting relationship, because you were feeling insecure. I did NOT expect you to decide that your word to be together, no matter what, no longer mattered. I did NOT expect that you were going to throw everything away because you didn't agree with what I felt/did, because YOU said those were things YOU weren't going to do, and WE said those were things WE weren't going to do.

Galagirl, thank you for reframing things into what I have accomplished. It's hard to see it sometimes. It does help.

Glad it helps.

Galagirl

You know I was thinking all of this over yesterday and I thought, "What is so terrible about Panther that Maca hates him so much, anyway?" Panther seems like a nice guy to me.

Nothing. He is a nice guy and they got along fine the last 17 years Maca and I were together. (I have known Panther 25 yrs.) Maca got attitude because of his own insecurities. He flew into a control-freak mode and tried to go behind my back to negotiate with Panther about Panther videotaping Maca and me together (sexually) and then "If that went okay," arranging a threesome, "And if that went okay, we can discuss you guys dating."

I flipped my lid, because that is not acceptable, for any number of reasons, starting with no one negotiates terms for what I do with my body, and ending with I don't want a third party handling how my relationships work.

When I flipped on Maca he went flying off the handle on Panther for "destroying our marriage." When that got him nowhere good he sent him messages threatening bodily harm and easily interpreted as threatening his life, all driven by the need to be in control.

NOW he claims that there were other issues prior. But the things he claims now to have been issues weren't issues when they were happening. Only after all this shit went down.

He told me today that "At first it was just a conflict that needed resolved, but now it's hatred." Well, WHATEVER.

I don't really care WHY. There is no excuse for trying to pimp me out. There is no excuse for blaming someone else for "destroying" our marriage. There is no excuse for threatening someone with physical harm.

At any rate, I was thinking all of this over, after finishing our bedroom (cleaning, etc.). It really struck me that, frankly, he's no longer the kind of person I want to tie myself to.

Do I love him?
Yes.
Do I want to cause him harm?
No.
Do I want "revenge"?
No.

But if he walked in tomorrow and said "I was wrong. I love you and I'm sorry," I wouldn't agree to resuming our marriage.

I was struck that this came across my FB feed:
https://www.morethantwo.com/blog/2015/02/thoughts-community-abuse


I shared it with Maca. His take on it was that I am creating an idea in my head that he's abusive. He TOTALLY missed the point. The point (to me) is that any time we attempt to control someone else we are edging into abusive behavior. It wasn't PANTHER he was being abusive to. (He was also abusive to me in that behavior,but that wasn't where I was going.) I didn't explain. I didn't elaborate. I don't need to.

His response closed a door in me. His response made it ABUNDANTLY clear that he see's nothing wrong with a behavior that I believe is abusive. THAT isn't something that can remotely be compromised, and it isn't going to be discussed.

I always knew there was a connection between the issues that arose and power/control. But I struggled with defining it clearly enough FOR MYSELF.

I love him.
I hurt.
I miss him.
But I can not be with him.

Even my 15 year old can clearly state that XYZ behavior is "just unacceptable and not excusable" and he can clearly state that his dad is doing XYZ behaviors.

My 7 year old needs to see me not tolerate it, as well. She needs to learn that she deserves to be treated with respect as an autonomous individual with rights that aren't optional.

Anyway, that's enough for tonight.

Out of curiosity, how is Panther doing? Have you had a chance to spend any quality time with him since you returned from your trip? Is it too much for him to want to be involved? Just curious, and really wondering how I'd fare in such a situation, were I either Panther or you.

I really don't know, but think you're handling it all pretty well considering.

Monkeystyle, thanks for asking. Panther is doing okay. Keeping in mind, we've been friends for a quarter century.

He lives about 50 miles away from me. But it just so happens that the college is about 5 miles past him.

He was very direct and has a "keep it simple, stupid" attitude about drama in life (which is actually what set Maca off so bad). His take on life is "three times and you're out." In a three-week span of time, Maca managed to be derogatory, offensive and try to push off our marital problems onto Panther. Panther's reaction was simply to cut contact. But he was point blank that he has been friends with me for years and at NO POINT in that time have I ever treated him in such a way. It's not my nature. I have been a loyal & supportive friend.

He does not come to the house anymore. He used to come visit when we had group get togethers and occasionally he would come by just to visit. Maca has forbidden him on the property, even though Maca isn't here, and Panther doesn't care to involve himself in the drama.

He still attends the kids' special events. MOST of them, Maca has been unable to attend, due to proximity. The few where both were present, they avoided each other. He is also FB friends with the older kids. (SourPea is not on FB as she's only 7.) He (and his mom) send pictures/cards/small gifts to SourPea regularly, and she sends cards/letters/drawings back. She rarely gets to see him anymore because she's in public school, and so her only available time is evenings/weekends, and he's primarily available during the day.

He is very good about not discussing anything to do with Maca with me, or with the kids in general. If the kids bring things up, he's not off-putting. SourPea misses her dad, so she will say things like, "I miss Daddy. I wish he was here too," and Panther will respond with a hug and "I know," followed by his nickname for her. Or she will mention wanting to watch a particular movie "but Daddy has it." All of our movies were on Maca's hard drive, which he took with him. Panther will respond with something friendly and suggest possible different movies. He doesn't give an attitude when they mention their dad. But he doesn't make an effort to elaborate either.

The kids are WELL aware of the issue, because Maca made it ABUNDANTLY clear to them that he doesn't want to hear ANYTHING about Panther, ever. They could tell you first hand that he hates him. Sweet Pea can tell you in grand detail why he hates him, what insecurities are driving him, what is wrong about his observations/conclusions, etc.

Sour Pea only knows that he hates him and she thinks, "It's sad, 'cause Panther is such a nice friend and he loves me and you and Sweet Pea and Spicy Pea, and he's fun too."

At any rate, ALL OF THAT said, yes, we find time to see each other. Mostly I find time now, because he can't come to the house, and it's asinine for him to drive 50 miles to visit me near my home and then drive 50 miles back. His work, my school and his home are all within a 5 mile radius. I try to stop by after school a couple days a week.

His respect for Maca is gone. He used to have a strong respect for him and liked him a lot. But after Maca's behavior with him, FOLLOWED by Maca's treatment of me, he has no respect for him.

Who could respect Maca at this point?

Re (from LovingRadiance):

"He went flying off the handle on Panther for 'destroying our marriage.'
When that got him nowhere good -- he sent him messages threatening bodily harm and easily interpreted as threatening his life."

Click to expand...

Yeah ... totally uncool on Maca's part.

kdt26417 said:

Who could respect Maca at this point?

Click to expand...

A large portion of the mono world, especially males, which makes up all of the people he socializes with. He does not associate with anyone poly except the 25 yo. The reality is that most people think it's perfectly reasonable to threaten other people when they *APPEAR* to be doing something you don't like. Our society revels in drama, violence, power and control. His behavior is seen as that of a "protective," "loving" and "devoted" husband.

Well count me as one man who totally opposes violence -- all the moreso if the main thing fueling the violence is macho bravado.

Maca's monogamous friends are behind him on this one, eh? Does his poly history with the 25-year-old affect their opinion, or is it okay for monogamous men to sleep around?

I stand by my original position that Maca crossed the line when he threatened Panther. And may God have mercy on Maca's soul if he ever acts on such a threat.

He doesn't have any friends. He has acquaintances. He doesn't trust anyone. The ones who know there is anything going on, know that "she wants a fuck buddy." They know nothing else.

I happen to agree with you, but the rates of domestic violence in this state make it very clear that it's NOT the common opinion.

No, unfortunately, we live in a world that (by and large) believes violence is a useful tool for solving problems. And while granted we can't always seem to find better tools than violence, I'd like to think that part of humanity's evolutionary destiny is that we'll gradually find better tools.

In a nutshell, whenever there are two arguably equal ways to tackle a problem, one peaceful and one violent ... I definitely advocate for the peaceful way. I also advocate searching long and hard for a peaceful way even if none is immediately apparent.

As for Maca, I feel like he is living in a dark, shadowy world, not exposing himself to anyone, and not seeking to shine any light on the truth of any of his actions.

Which I suppose isn't your problem in the end, but be careful, you never know what a person will do if they completely snap.

I can't handle much more. Today I logged into Facebook to find that Maca's ex-wife was digging around in my Facebook pictures and sharing pictures from my wedding with Maca. There's no logic or reasoning in this woman. She's an addict. She spent 12 years tormenting and torturing me; filing false allegations against me with children's services (which then requires months of them in our home, even when they were able to verify in hours that it was all bullshit, but because of the way the laws are written they are still required to open a case and track the family for 3-6 months); attempting to kidnap my children twice (not Maca's and mine, MINE); then testifying in court that yes, she did, and she intended to do it again; running around the outside of our home beating on the walls, cursing, screaming threats, etc.

He regularly was out of town, leaving me to deal with this psychotic shit on my own, in addition to the regular life shit.

I lost it. My anxiety went through the roof as soon as I saw it. I blocked her. We hadn't heard from her in years. (Even their son doesn't have contact with her anymore. He flat out forbade her to attend his high school graduation.) I keep catching myself scanning the driveway, street, yard, trees. I have been in and out of tears for several hours now.

Between the shock and anxiety triggered by her being in contact in any way, for any reason, and the pain and heartache over having those particular pictures brought to the highlight of my attention, in the midst of the bs that is going on, and divorce being imminent, and the idea of HER in particular doing ANYTHING with my wedding photos (which is somewhat stupid, but whatever, feelings are feelings), I am an emotional wreck. I am feeling hurt, anxious, paranoid, angry, resentful. I feel like I imagine an injured animal feels when it needs help but is too distressed and freaked out not to attack.

Sounds like Maca's ex found yet another effective way to torture you. The only question that remains is: Why now? You get nothing from her for years, then suddenly this? Lord I hope Maca isn't coaching her. Does he even keep in contact with her? I'm thinking not, but maybe that's changed recently ...

Jeezh, she's missing a whole lot of screws. Probably should be committed.

You don't seem to be getting the breaks you need right now.

kdt26417 said:

I hope Maca isn't coaching her. Does he even keep in contact with her? I'm thinking not, but maybe that's changed recently.

Click to expand...

Based on the way LR described her history, it doesn't sound like she NEEDS any encouragement from Maca to get going. She's already nutter butter as it is.

You need a few crazy people on your side, LR, to balance the ones going against you. I believe you can rent them at Costco these days. Might want to pick a few up.

I know, seriously! I enjoyed the opportunity to laugh over that one. My Costco card expired in January. In light of the drama, I don't have money to get it back. But that was freaking hilarious. YES, the crazies are coming out of the woodwork. It's freaking insane!

It never rains, but pours.

I got the bike on the road today. It needs some work. Maca moved the mirrors (in order to get it into the house for winter) and I can't tighten the right one down where it belongs, so I certainly won't be hitting the highways. But I did take it around the corner. It felt FUCKING GREAT to be back on the road.

(I also put in 8 applications for employment today. Now I need to get a paper written for art class.)