Advice for community accountability process for serial fluid bond-breaking?

Hello everyone. First post! So here's the story...it's kind of tricky to me so any guidance would be appreciated. I've edited it to give everyone involved a pseudonym.

So I was fluid bonded with my now former primary partner, "Allan" for nearly two years. Allan is male-bodied, and I am female-bodied, and the agreement of our fluid bond was that only he and I would have unprotected penetrative sex. I found out a couple of months ago from Allan that he had broken our agreement a few months prior and had had unprotected penetrative sex with two different people. The first person, "Marta" was not aware that Allan and I were primary partners and fluid bonded, and he admits to having intentionally kept her in the dark. The second person, "Angie", was a friend of ours that he and I dated occasionally. Angie was aware of our fluid bond, we had spoken together extensively about our safer sex needs, and I considered her an ally. As you might imagine, I was devastated not only to learn of Allan's infidelity, but to learn that Angie, who I'd trusted and considered a good friend, had consented to breaking my boundaries.

Allan and I had extensive conversations about his choices, and he has opted for a period of solitude and personal reflection. Given his transparency in admitting his mistakes to me, and his committment on his part to address his behavior, I feel a pretty good sense of closure with him.

I would also like closure with Angie, who knowingly crossed my boundaries. Unfortunately, I learned more recently from a close friend of mine, "Lupe", that Angie had been involved in something similar: Lupe's now former primary partner, "Jon", with whom Lupe was exclusively fluid bonded, had been secretly having unprotected penetrative sex with Angie for a few months before Lupe found out.

While it takes more than one person to tango, I am incredibly hurt by what I am seeing as serial behavior on the part of Angie. Lupe, Angie and I have a close network of mutual friends and lovers. Given this mutual connection, Lupe and I would like to call Angie out in some sort of community accountability process. Would anyone have any advice or feedback for what I have in mind? Here is what I have so far, followed by what I see as problematic with this approach:

Lupe and I, through a neutral mutual friend of all three of us, would like to ask Angie to meet us in a safe space, in the presence of trusted friends and lovers and a facilitator all parties could agree on. Lupe and I would like for Angie to hear us out: our stories, the repercussions her actions have had on our emotional and physical well-being (again, not conflating her choices with the choices of Allan and Jon). She could also state her perspective if she so desires. I would also like to request that she commit to certain actions to avoid this kind of behavior in the future, and ask her what she thinks those actions could be. We might open up suggestions to our friends if she consents. Lupe and I would then both like to ask Angie to apologize to us individually. We have a lot of mutual friends (and former, current, and future lovers), so I hope that the community part of the process will assure that she is held accountable.

I do not expect that this sort of process will solve Angie's problems, and I also fear that including friends could result in this becoming a shaming process. I do not want to shame her. I do, however, want space to communicate openly and up-front about these issues, and I would like to underline that her choices have ramifications in our larger community of lovers and friends. For myself, I ultimately want to find another grain of closure. Folks with experience in conflict resolution, community accountability processes, and similar experience, would you have any advice? I would especially appreciate anarchofeminist perspectives (this is the framework that most folks in our community follow), but I am welcoming to any and all loving advice and perspectives.

Thank you,
Bromeliad

I am sorry you deal in this.

Let me recap what I understand so I know I got it. You correct me if I am wrong, ok?

BACKGROUND

You have this ex-friend cheating woman, Angie. Her and your ex Allan were having a cheating affair. You have to deal with your thoughts and feelings about your Allan too, but the main concern of this post is how to deal with your thoughts and feelings about Angie.

You have this other friend, Lupe. You found out she was ALSO cheated on by her partner and the SAME Angie.

You and Lupe want to have an intervention of sorts with Angie.

Your "PROS" Thoughts

• You want to have time/space to talk this out open and up front.
• You want Angie to hear you guys out. How her behavior impacted you and your well being.
• You want Angieto tell her side if she wants to.
• You want Angie to apologize and promise to stop cheating.
• You share many friends in common, and hope that doing this in a group will help Angie keep her word.
• You think this will bring you closure.

Your "CONS" Thoughts

• You don't actually think doing this will solve Angie's problems
• You don't actually think Angie is willing and able to hold herself accountable. Because you expect the group to hold her accountable instead
• You worry doing this as a group will turn into a shamefest. (You seem to recognize that you cannot control other people's behavior. and it could go there even if you do not want that)

MY OPINION

I mean this kindly ok?

Find closure yourself, on your own. Don't put yourself in the line of fire so you get dinged by Angie.

I do however want space to communicate openly and up-front about this issues, and I would like to underline that her choices have ramifications in our larger community of lovers and friends. For myself, I ultimately want to find another grain of closure.

Click to expand...

If that is your bottom line? I think you could do that on your own in counseling. Possibly even more effectively.

Could see a counselor to help you digest and process so you can arrive at the healing place. Do a co-counseling session with Lupe if your counselor thinks that is appropriate and could be helpful to you. You seem to want to have time and space to tell your story. So tell it to the counselor -- who to me seems would be a much safer person to share with than Angie.

If anyone in the circle of friends asks directly what you think of Angie, or if you want to make them aware if invites comes up like they want to go to the movies with you and Angie? You could be up front but short and sweet: You can't be friends with Angie any more because she was part of a cheating affair that impacted you. You don't want to hang out with her any more. They are free to continue to be friends with her or not. That is up to them.

Then they no longer invite you to hang with her and you are free of that. But you are not grinding on the past either.

Because you know what? Angie may just not care. I know that could be hard to take, since you seem to be a person who does cares about you and your circle of friends and things like honesty, integrity, open communication,etc. But she's her. Angie does not have to share your values. Some people in the world just do not care about the things you do care about.

Angie was not willing to be up front. Not with you. Not with Lupe. She chose to participate in a cheating instead. Given her recent behaviors, how does that make you think Angie is going to be willing and care to attend and participate in an intervention where the outcome is her being expected to hold herself accountable? Based on her cheating behaviors, I guess Angie doesn't sound like she cares to be held accountable at this time.

I think the only time a cheater can change is when the cheater decides to change. I think when caught, they are more likely to say whatever to get out of the spotlight, including faking remorse. I don't think they are really sorry -- just sorry they got caught. That's been my experience.

If it were me in those shoes? Rather than open myself to more shenanigans from a person I no longer trust who is now ex-friend? I would focus more on ME and my healing. Behaviors that *I* could do. I have full control over my behaviors.

I gently suggest you could do that and refocus on YOU and your healing rather than Angie changing her ways and Angie healing relationships she hurt with her behaviors. Leave that to Angie to do.

• You could get counseling if you need extra help in processing this and moving through the pain. It is a big load.
  
• You could do the grieving process and monitor yourself as you move through the stages. This whole idea sounds like "bargaining stage" to me. Like if only you present it right to her, Angie will understand and finally taker personal responsibility and own her bad behavior. Then you can understand why Angie did this terrible thing so you can let it go and move on.
  
• You could work to accept that Angie's behavior is hers to control. You cannot control it.
  
• You could work to accept Angie's willingness to do things different belongs to her. And she may NOT be willing to change her ways. For whatever unknown reason, this way of going works for her at this time.
  
• You could work to accept that Angie's behavior can also not be controlled by the circle of friends. All any of you can do is choose to keep hanging out with her or not. You already do not -- she's your ex-friend.
  
• You could work to accept that Angie doesn't give you closure. YOU give yourself permission to move on. Understanding detail things might help you become more willing and more able to move on faster. But you don't NEED them to move on. You can understand it to the "good enough" place -- that Angie chooses to behave this way and you want no part of it. You don't actually have to have "deep understanding" and understand all of Angie's inner workings for you to allow yourself to move on. You change your willingness. Time and support can help you become more able.

Again, I'm really sorry you deal in this. It sounds like you were cut to the core on this one.

The process of coming to terms and final acceptance is a process. I hope you get there and feel better in time.

GL!

Galagirl

I couldn't understand your post. You can edit for 12 hours, so if it's not too late, can you go back and use nicknames for all the parties? All this former friend, former primary, neutral mutual friend, etc. is wicked confusing.

If it's too late to edit, PM NYCindie or another mod to help you.

Thanks. You will probably get more help with nicknames in place.

Thank you for the reply, GalaGirl. I am processing it and will respond when I'm ready.

Magdlyn, I've gone ahead and made those changes that you requested. Thank you!

Thanks, bromeliad, much better.

Galagirl always gives good ideas, but I would add:

Go get tested! Maybe you already have, but if Angie is fucking all around with no condoms, goodness knows what she's carrying. I so hope you're OK.

I am concerned that your Allan cheated on your twice, bareback, and that Lupe's ex also cheated on her, bareback! What the hell? My first idea is you need a new circle of "friends." This is just not sensible behavior on the part of the 2 "men" and at least 3 women (that you know about).

So, rather than have an intervention for Angie, you'd need interventions for the men and at least 2 other women.

It's nice, for some people, to have a larger group of "poly" friends, but this is a gang of cheaters, hon. It's not poly if there isn't transparency.

My first thought had been, just tell everyone about this Typhoid Mary, spread the word. But it's not just Angie, it's Allan and Lupe's male ex as well. Especially if you consider yourself a feminist, why are the men not being held just as accountable?

I don't know where you live and how big of a town it is, and options for poly dating, but this crowd is just unethical. If it were me, and I kept trying to date in this circle, at the very least, I would never ever go bareback again, with a man or a woman.

bromeliad,

Closure is not something other people do for us. It's something we give ourselves. Angie can't offer you closure, not really in the way you are hoping for. Even if you have an intervention (which sounds like the model you are mulling over), you may find it unsatisfying and disturbing. You may not believe her even if she apologies for her mistakes. She may turn the whole thing around on you and your partner - who was also responsible, or the other folks involved.

I truly understand the impulse - it took me way too long to get this through my head. And I wasted decades in anger in response to a devastating incident that I didn't have to. I regret that now. Learn from my fail.

Closure will look and feel different when you give it to yourself rather than seek it externally. Paradoxically, it's been my experience that it will take longer to manifest than you are comfortable with. But it will be real and not just an 'input' from the outside. Think of internal closure as nutrition that keeps one healthy vs. a salve that heals a surface wound.

And I get the impulse to protect and help one's tight knit community. I am in a few of those too. Some of my communities have a way to process community upsets and issues. But they require willingness to trust that particular process, extremely gifted facilitators and mediators, and overall general good will. And it's time limited - not something that goes on for more than a week or two. It's not appropriate in all situations. Unfortunately your situation is one where it wouldn't be an ideal fit.

One final thought. I am glad Allan is making clear efforts to make amends and change his behavior. I hope those are successful. But I also hope you are waiting for concrete changes and not just accepting his words as enough. Words aren't good enough here. They are a fine start. Taking responsibility verbally and apologizing are great first steps. But they are a beginning, not the end point. The lying about your existence as a partner and your sexual health agreements is really disturbing. Does he lie about other things? Even small ones? Exaggerate just a bit to make himself look better? Is this a super bad judgment one-off? Or a pattern? If he is generally trustworthy and had a singular massive fail of judgment (it happens! been there, done that!), you can be more relaxed. But if this is part of an overall pattern of lying, flubbing, puffing himself up through fudging the truth, hiding the uncomfortable - look him over like a bug under a microscope. This kind of behavior is very hard to change - it's possible but requires a huge commitment to rebuilding a personal foundation that many people find incredibly painful and aren't willing to feel and work through that much pain.

I also wonder if you are not displacing some of your anger from Allen to Angie. Yes, you have every right to feel anger towards her, no doubt! But she's a friend, not a partner who broke an agreement. You might feel like you can't or shouldn't be angry at Allan any more because he has agreed to work on things. That's not true. It's ok to feel the anger even if he is working his butt off to do better the next time. Of course, feeling the anger is different from taking it out on him. That's not cool. But if this rings true for you, feel that anger. Allow yourself to do so. Sit with it. Journal about it if that works for you. Express it somehow (not necessary to Allan directly but that is an option.) And this is true of any of the myriad feelings you may be experiencing. Sadness, grief, rage (I find anger and rage to be related but separate emotions), disbelief, feeling stupid at yourself - a whole range. I'm not saying you *should* be feeling all these things or other emotions. Just be sure to not bottle up or suppress what you are actually feeling. It's unfun for sure but better in the long run.

Ok, that wasn't one final thought! Had more to say than I realized. Best of luck. Truly, this is painful but you will be ok.

Hi bromeliad,

Re: Lupe, Jon, and Angie ... did Angie know that Jon had promised not to have unprotected penetrative sex with anyone except Lupe?

Re (from bromeliad):

"Lupe, Angie and I have a close network of mutual friends and lovers. Given this mutual connection, Lupe and I would like to call Angie out in some sort of community accountability process. Would anyone have any advice or feedback for what I have in mind?"

Click to expand...

Not unless your close network of mutual friends and lovers has formal rules regarding how to discipline a network member who behaves badly. I guess you could wait until the whole network gathers together (possibly inviting them all to get together at your place?), and then announce to all in attendance what Angie has done. Which might make Angie look bad (dishonest and sexually irresponsible), but it might also make you look bad (vindictive). The scales of justice would therefore remain imbalanced.

The plan you described is pretty similar to the above paragraph, except you'd be adding "a facilitator all parties could agree on," so I assume that everyone -- including Angie -- would know what the formal meeting was about, and what was going to take place there. If that's true -- even if you kept most of the details secret from Angie until the actual meeting -- you'd need Angie's cooperation in order for it to work. What would you do if Angie stood up and walked out (or refused to attend in the first place)?

In fact you'd need the cooperation of your entire network, wouldn't you? That's why I say your network would need to function like an organization and have rules about how to handle this type of situation. Rules that everyone had already solemnly sworn to keep. (Although vows, too, can obviously be broken ...)

You might want to consider what the others have said about seeking closure on your own (perhaps with the help of a counselor). Be really wary about trusting Allan in the future. And definitely get yourself tested to make sure you haven't caught any STI/STD's.