Level of involvement VS resources

@Bluebird, thanks for your comment/perspective, and thank you for being on the forum at all!!! I read your blog, I really admire and respect how you put yourself out here.

I also really appreciate seeing that poly isn't reserved for 'people who've got no insecurities at all'. I'm struggling with mine at this point and felt kind of bummed at the prospect of tabling poly until I was "perfect enough", meaning: able to not *want* such a deep commitment from anyone.

Now it looks like I just have to be patient in finding what fits. Feels very hopeful.



@Magdlyn:
I have the same feeling, about the inexperience with reality... He is a bit more esoteric than I can handle at times and dismisses my attempts at connecting the dots--I would love to understand the way he thinks, but it seems suspended in thin air, with little solid info; everything for him is shifting like moving sands and he seems loath to attach to one particular idea (wants to keep every option open). All my attempts at questions or scenarios to imagine and understand how he wants to live his life, what he'd be interested in pursuing, what he wouldn't even consider (to see if I can even fit in there!), are met with "I don't know".

So I'm being patient... I guess we'll both see what happens in a few months, if he still wants to go ahead imagining the whole kit n'kaboodle is possible and I don't see a realistic way, we'll have to say goodbye.

We're not moving away from each other just yet though, so maybe there's time to work things out a bit more, flesh out how he sees his future, and then I can decide if I can fit in there, or if I'm not interested in that much bending. (I do bend a lot, by choice--I firmly believe we don't realize what we have until it's gone, and I would rather avoid the "gone" part and live gratefully every day.)

I can't deal with someone who cannot decide, though... it's scary. I feel like he may never decide at all and that would be it. I don't want to lose him but that's just asking for too much.



@kdt and LovingRadiance:

Thank you for explaining how you see it...

So I'm thinking I do have a limit based on time, energy and input...

For now I feel a little stupid in thinking it's got to be pretty rare to meet people who exactly meet our needs and for whom *we* meet them just as exactly....?? I guess it points to my inability to compartmentalize different wants and needs... but I'm not sure if I want to learn how to do that, it doesn't seem necessary depending on who we meet, and me in my current state would probably seem limiting *to other people*. I'm OK with that.

I'll see how I can stretch depending on who comes along.


Thanks again guys!

@Gala and LovingRadiance, thanks again for the examples. I get the point now. I'm Cinderella trying to fit myself into a shoe meant for someone else.

I'll go have a temper tantrum in the corner now, about why two people love each other but it can't possibly work out (if he wants that much stuff in his life, I'll end up feeling stuffed into a corner).


Have a great one, I figure I'll be back after I talk to him on Sunday...

Falling in love is easy. Sustaining it is another thing. That's why "love" alone is not enough for long term compatibility.

It's enough to form the initial attraction, bond. But if it does not come with shared values, goals, life styles, culture, interests, life plan, personalities, etc... it's not likely going to be a long haul thing.

There is more components to (long term compatibility) than (loving each other.) It's a part of it, but not the only thing.

Galagirl

Re (from SuddenlyStoneElf):

"I guess our priorities are different, since to him it's acceptable to have an LDR ...?"

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Is there a particular reason why he wants to move a long distance away from you? Has he met someone he's interested in who lives far away?

kdt26417 said:

Re (from SuddenlyStoneElf):


Is there a particular reason why he wants to move a long distance away from you? Has he met someone he's interested in who lives far away?

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Part of his plans is wanting to move either to Seattle or Portland. We were supposed to move together to Seattle after being in Colorado for 4 years. But I probably won't be able to follow him, with Seattle being way expensive for a single person living alone, and me not wanting to be enslaved to the high-paying-but-really-stressful type of job that I'd need to be in Seattle *and* be OK with things just breaking off between us if they have to.

He thinks I'm overreacting and that things will work out fine for him, even on a modestly-paying job over there. That contradicts what I've been seeing on various forums, etc. Also important is that neither of us have cars, neither of us want any either, so location close to work will always be a big consideration...

I don't know, it feels like he hasn't thought anything through to me. But if that's how he wants things.... what can I do? Nothing.

SuddenlyStoneElf said:

For now I feel a little stupid in thinking it's got to be pretty rare to meet people who exactly meet our needs and for whom *we* meet them just as exactly....?? I guess it points to my inability to compartmentalize different wants and needs... but I'm not sure if I want to learn how to do that, it doesn't seem necessary depending on who we meet, and me in my current state would probably seem limiting *to other people*. I'm OK with that.

I'll see how I can stretch depending on who comes along.


Thanks again guys!

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It's not only rare to meet someone who exactly meets our needs, it's impossible! The best we can do is meet and hopefully mate with someone or someones who meet many of our needs, have quite a few similar goals, interests, lifestyles, neatness habits, etc etc. Then communication and compromise come into play.

The good thing about being poly is, if one of your loved ones doesn't meet enough of your needs, you are free to see others who can meet a few of those needs for you. Any other needs left over? Try and meet them yourself, on your own, with platonic friends, online, whatever.

And the funny thing is, even if you're monogamous and meet "Mr or Ms Right" who seems to meet a plethora of your needs, shares goals and interests, voila! Five years down the road, or less, their needs, interests, goals can change (or maybe they always had them but were afraid to share), so can yours, and suddenly your paths diverge. Then you try and compromise even harder. And if that's not enough, despite trying, despite still loving them, the healthy choice can be to split.

Re: employment in the Pacific Northwest ... is hard to get, I know that from direct observation. Finding just the right job, close (walking distance?) to one's place of residence ... well, that is a tall order. I can see why you'd be reluctant to make the attempt.

I was researching the Pacific NW just this morning, and I think I've been able to discount it. We would come with my husband's job, as he can live anywhere and his paycheck travels with him. That said, it is just too expensive, and our plan is to move someplace cheaper than Maryland, not the same or more expensive. I can't imagine living in Seattle on one income - that seems really difficult!

Seattle itself -- impossible. I actually live about an hour away from Seattle.

Cost of living could be worse. California for example (especially San Francisco). But by far the most forgiving economy I ever experienced was in Albuquerque (though I know 30's in the Winter is too cold).

Bluebird said:

I was researching the Pacific NW just this morning, and I think I've been able to discount it. We would come with my husband's job, as he can live anywhere and his paycheck travels with him. That said, it is just too expensive, and our plan is to move someplace cheaper than Maryland, not the same or more expensive. I can't imagine living in Seattle on one income - that seems really difficult!

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kdt26417 said:

Seattle itself -- impossible. I actually live about an hour away from Seattle.

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Yeah, I need to research a lot more about where I'm going. I know I need a metro area due to travel, preferably one with well-developed public transit (!) I'm used to traveling 30-60 minutes to work or school, had been doing that for most of my adult life on the East Coast (Canada)...

I think I'll trust myself and avoid Seattle although I may try Vancouver just because I can. Not done researching though, I may be stuck either getting a car or hitching it back to the East.... meh. I'll see.

Ummmm....I've lived in Seattle since 2002, on a freaking daycare income, and supported myself pretty well on it. I've been both a bus and a car user while in the city, and although I'm happier with a car, without one is totally doable. Granted, I'm not trying to support a family on my tiny income, but anyone who doesn't work in a woefully underpaid and undervalued field like myself could do it, and many do.

Is it an expensive city? Yes. Is it as crazy as y'all make it out to be? Not at all!

Well, I am specifically looking for 1 - a poly-friendly state and 2 - a low cost of living. We are buying a 5th wheel or RV to travel half the time, so our rent needs to be cheap. Seattle does not rate cheap on any site that I've looked at. I need at least a 3 bedroom house, really want a pool, and it needs to cost less than $1000 a month. Right now we are paying almost double that.

Now, the OP is just looking as a single person, but for me, we need to be able to pay for the rent AND the extensive traveling we hope to do, as well as be able to sock away a lot into savings. With Seattle, the numbers just don't seem to add up.

StoneElf, one site I can recommend is www.areavibes.com - it has a great comparison tool for looking at different cities.

The reason we live in coal country of Pa the cost of living. Honestly no one gives two hoots about my love life. I am within easy driving distance of Nyc, Philly, Baltimore.... My 3 bedroom house costs a whopping $450/mo I bought it 18months ago and will own free and clear it within 3 years. My house with Murf mortgage is $350 for a beautiful capecod.

Let's keep the OP in perspective ...

SSE's S2BX wants a family with a couple of children plus the ability to pursue female friends ... plus a full-time job, and his serious hobby which currently takes up his entire evenings.

And SSE's more recent post which says ...

S2BX wants to do all this in Seattle or Portland, maintaining an LDR with SSE without a car, and doing fine on a modestly-paying job.

If we put all that together, it sounds like one guy proposes to support a wife, kids, girlfriends, LDR, and time-consuming hobby, all on his one moderate income. Unless I'm misinterpreting his intentions, I think it will be hard for him to do all that and live in Seattle or Portland (proper) at the same time.

Not that he'd have an easy go of it in Boulder either, though at least that'd eliminate the LDR (at first).

Sure humans are famous for doing the impossible and I'm not guaranteeing that he can't do all that he plans to do. I just think it's going to be a substantial challenge.

I know that you've already received a lot of advice, and good advice at that. I just felt compelled to comment because what you are describing is pretty much what my husband is doing now. He is married to me, we have two very young kids that need a lot of care and attention, he has a demanding career with a lot of travel required, he's in the national guard, he is an active and involved member of the local Am Vets post, and he has a long distance girlfriend. I know that everything he has on his plate causes him a great deal of stress. In turn, this creates a lot of sadness and anxiety in me.

So from the wife/mother perspective (if your STBX does, in fact, go that route) I can tell you that I worry sometimes. At various times I've seen how much it stresses and hurts my husband when he sacrifices one thing for the other, I know how I hurt when I feel I'm not getting the time I need as his wife, and I'm sure my metamour is hurt that she rarely sees him. There just aren't enough hours in a day or weekends in a year to do everything. I know that he tries hard to maintain balance but I have watched as his hectic schedule has started to take it's toll. His high level of stress sometimes boils over and he gets depressed and withdrawn, and that is with me as well as my metamour and to a certain extent the kids. Other times everything seems to be going well and then I learn that his girlfriend has been having a hard time with lack of attention.

In our case I think it has a lot to do with the fact that both my metamour and I can be very demanding of attention. I try not to pry about their relationship but both of them have made comments to me in passing at various times about feeling disconnected. I feel badly because I love my husband and I like my metamour a great deal, so I don't want either of them to hurt. At the same time, I am pretty steadfast in my belief that the nuclear family comes first and therefore it is not acceptable for my husband to sacrifice too much money or time driving or flying out to see her if it will harm our household finances, relationships with extended family or our children.

The times that have been the best for us are the times when she has been able to travel to stay with us at our home. Then he is spending time with her, me and the children all together. Every one gets along, the kids love her and she them. While she's been in town we've been on dates (him and her, him and I, her and I, all three of us together) and we've always seemed to enjoy ourselves during her visits. Currently she is hoping to find an internship or job in our area once she's finished her degree. Until then I think we all just have to hope for the best and maintain this balancing act. If not, then something has got to give.

Soooo..... (sorry, I got long winded there)
I would tell you that it is not impossible, but it will certainly cause everyone some level of stress (I think you especially, given what you've said about the level of time and attention you require.) I wish you all the best, but ultimately it is up to you what you can and cannot handle.

This cannot be a good idea

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your replies and the additional perspectives.

So after talking with soon-to-be-ex, it's clear he's going to "try" doing all that "down the line" with an indeterminate timeline, because he needs to feel like he has access to all those things, that he's "allowed" to go for them (whatever that means), and he disagrees with my outlook (which is very similar to Cuppycake's).

He doesn't see how a situation like that could be construed as challenging because he thinks it would be OK for him; in his mind as long as people say they're together, that's the entire relationship. I.e. 2 people can say they're "friends" and even if they don't talk to each other more than twice a year, they're still friends. So he doesn't see how there could be any problems with people in his life having low involvement, as long as "they are there". I don't work like that.

I don't feel too good about his outlook because there are simply too many moving parts, and what looked at first like unbridled optimism from him now looks like biting off more than he can chew. Especially when he's an anxious type of person who needs so much time alone and gets touchy when too many people are around him....!! It really doesn't add up, I feel anyone who wanted to share his life would have a very thin slice to contend with indeed. I want more out of my relationship with any partner than the bare minimum--otherwise I may as well be single, it's the same thing for me.

We'll be going our separate ways as soon as I plan my move out.

He says I've been a definite plus to him but I don't see how he can be a plus to me down the line when he'll be struggling with everything--I don't have a good feeling about his overall ability to pull this off anymore, and I don't want my role in any relationship to be relegated solely to "support" and to have to "be OK with giving but not getting much because he isn't capable of it"... I don't relish the prospect of continued emotional struggles, I would much prefer something stable and dependable where state of mind and feelings are considered important, rather than just consequences to manage as best you can (collateral damage)...

I know some people are just able to give, give, give without thinking about what they're getting, and I find that incredible! But I am just not that generous with my self anymore, due to being taken advantage of in a few past relationships... I see a relationship as a partnership; the scenario he proposes would be very lopsided in his favor. I hope he can find such people who give without needing much in return, it's the only way I see it working out for him.


I am not looking forward to restarting everything from almost zero (again, after moving to go live with him), but meh. Lesson learned: I will not embark on any more adventures with people who don't have solid life plans and goals, and don't know how to put themselves in anyone else's shoes to see the impact of their plans and goals. (Nevermind people who don't care one bit.)


I'm keeping my heart open to see if anything changes on his end (since he's changed his mind about big things 3-4 times during our marriage!), although I doubt any changes would make things more workable at this point. Who knows. I guess that's my own optimism showing up.

Have a great one everyone!...

Re:

"... that he's 'allowed' to go for them (whatever that means) ..."

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Indeed, what on Earth does it mean? that you're stopping him if you don't give your official permission? your official blessing? your official agreement? Are you now not "allowed" to have opinions of your own?

Re:

"So he doesn't see how there could be any problems with people in his life having low involvement, as long as 'they are there.'"

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I thought he was aiming for a wife and kids?

Sorry to hear things aren't working out between the two of you for the moment at least, but I do think you're drawing some healthy boundaries around yourself and that's a good foundation for any (future) relationship. Please keep us posted ... I'm curious to hear how his ambitious plans work out, and I'm hoping you'll find a relatively sensible partner in the near future.

kdt26417 said:

Re:
Indeed, what on Earth does it mean? that you're stopping him if you don't give your official permission? your official blessing? your official agreement? Are you now not "allowed" to have opinions of your own?

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I couldn't get a straight answer there (but it's not unusual for answers to not be clear with him). When I asked, it really sounded as though if I wasn't going to support him 100% and help him achieve those goals in every possible way, including letting go of doubt / not even asking how he'll accomplish all this (because doubting is apparently not supportive??), I shouldn't be there. Yet I've told him I would support him within my own limits--I think he sees my limits as, well, limiting... he's looking for someone who won't bog him down with such.

I guess that's fair, and there's nothing I can do about that so... game over.


He is looking for a wife and kids indeed. I have no idea how he'll manage to find someone to support him 100% in his endeavors without supporting them in return. Maybe he'll find something magical...!

I only work 3-4 days a week from home as I am a partner in my business. For the first few years of our 38 year relationship with my wife's best friend, the ladies worked on and off but I was the main provider. Our g/f was getting alimony from her ex so she really did not have to work.

Our g/f had a young son and my wife and I had none so we had plenty of time to devote to our relationship and a fun life. We never had a single problem, even after our g/f got married to a guy she met on the internet who was fine with her relationship with us. She would not tell us anymore than they had an arrangement but we suspected that her doctor husband was gay or bi with a strong leaning towards men, and needed a wife for social and professional purposes. We did not pry as we did not care as it allowed her to spend more time with us because she now had a built in babysitter for the weekends. Between her ex husband and new husband, she could spend weeks with us at a time. Her ex was all too happy to have his son for extended periods of time so it worked out well for all.

For us, it was just our normal life. We never talked about our life as if it was different. My wife could not even tell me if she considered herself bisexual when I asked her just last year because she never thought about it before. I see your formula but if you view a poly relationship as work or try to calculate a cost/benefit ratio, a poly relationship might not be best for you. We just let it happen and lived it and put whatever time and effort that it required without thinking about it or viewing it as work and effort.

maxnsue said:

I see your formula but if you view a poly relationship as work or try to calculate a cost/benefit ratio, a poly relationship might not be best for you. We just let it happen and lived it and put whatever time and effort that it required without thinking about it or viewing it as work and effort.

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I see every relationship as work (as requiring some work to be put into for it to actually work)--put 2 people in a room together and it may not work out without communication, commitment and a few common goals to help...

As far as cost/benefit goes, pardon my saying, I hope I don't offend... but it sounds to me like you got plenty of benefits from your relationship! and it's marvelous that it worked out.

Do you and the ladies of your life feel like you all shared equal involvement (according to ability) in the process?