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  #101  
Old 11-19-2013, 11:09 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default I'll chime in

to say that perhaps this thread should be merged with the other thread, because quite Frankly, I am having trouble understanding the "problem" you are trying to address of even discuss

perhaps you could clarify for US kevin, because to be honest, it has the same very bigoted tone of Helo's thread, wherein he stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sounding bigoted
...From what I've seen, non-whites are a very small part of the poly community but when they are part they tend to be accepted wholesale. In the local group I've been to, there are maybe ten (out of ~50-60) people who are non-white and of those five or so are black. I've never seen anyone treat them with anything less than respect, I've seen them get physically involved with other people (and couples) with no discomfort on either part....
now, of course it may have been unintentional that he would choose to use the phrase "...they tend to be accepted wholesale..." because Frankly, I find it offensive, and not funny at all. I guess under certain circumstances -- like if her were performing a stand up comedy routine where the context is a stand up comedy routine -- anywhere else that shit isn't funny, especially since his next line is "get physically involved" which sounds like an assault.

I am fully aware of the many erudite bigoted people who think it is OK to utter such poisonous sentences and clauses so long as it isn't blatant. I am of the opinion that it is the subtle ones, that are more dangerous and do more damage to any community, and as a result the entire civilization of all collective Human Beings, and such people are not an US that I will ever refer to as WE, but rather a THEM, as in not ME, not anyone I would call friend of the person YOU, so certainly Not US or WE.

I understand people make mistakes or say stupid shit sometimes or even lose their temper, but all this bullshit about aspergers, or totally misunderstanding the difference between the relationships you share your life in, and the love that should be shown for those within a community, and the respect when there is an absence of love.

You don't need an excuse or reason for who you offer yourself, your life, and your love to share with nor do you need any reason for who you do not. That is not bigotry, and people who do not recognize the difference between autonomy of each person to choose their own immediate family, with wrongly discrimination, or not people I would ever choose to be friends with of even live in the same town. The only exception being those who genuinely desire to understand why bigotry is wrong, and those people don't go around intimidating others of marginalizing them by employing subtlety.

I fully understand who some people do not like to hear, that you can have any reason you want for not accepting someone's advances or offers to share their life with you, in fact it may be the one choice that is totally and completely up to each of you as individuals, and you need no reason or even a rhyme. It is OK to decide yes or no to any person's love that is offered to you.

It's the one choice that has less to do -- for some people -- it has less to do with rejecting because of any characteristic their are, and truthfully it may be closer to something they are not. Because such a large portion of love and lust is mental, it can prove nearly impossible to pinpoint exactly what you desire in mates and partners. For instance I once thought a woman was "one of my ones" until I heard her speak of another person for using the term "desire in a mate or a partner" instead of the plural forms of the word. And that idiot psychologist concluded by that one clause, another woman was "mono" no matter what she ever did or how she acted nor how much she desired to be any other way.

and I thought to myself, "God damn, she is the most confused person I have ever seen in my life coupled with the most arrogant, all while believing they are travelling on the highest plane possible"

the worst kinds of behaviors are the hateful, bigoted ones, and the most dangerous are the ones that aren't recognized, for they are the ones where the fucking idiot claims to be behaving righteously, or worse, laboring for God or Christ

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 11-19-2013 at 11:26 PM. Reason: typo and added thoughts
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  #102  
Old 11-20-2013, 01:42 AM
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Re (from ColorsWolf):
Quote:
"Most 'North American cultures' are very closed-minded and bigoted when it comes to the discussion of anything children-related that goes too far from their comfort zone and that is why I with the most sincerity discourage any talk of subjects like these here as I have seen this community on this site is nowhere near the open-mindedness required to properly discuss matters such as sexual relations with children."
Yikes. So as to "cover my ass" if you'll pardon the expression, I officially definitely wasn't advocating having sex with kids (and especially wasn't advocating adults having sex with kids). I way wouldn't wanna miscommunicate my position in that area.

Fundamentally, the one maxim I'll wholeheartedly commit to is: "It's all about consent." From there, peoples everywhere are bound to wonder and argue about what constitutes *true, informed consent.* Brainwashing and juvenility are both conditions of mind that could be argued (and for many folks, such as North American folks, there's no argument about it, it's just self-evident and boy if it's not you're in trouble buddy) to negate any possibility of authentic consent.

I don't/won't say where on that "spectrum" (e.g., Is 18 the age at which true, informed consent becomes possible? The answer isn't always "Yes" even in the United States; it depends on what State you're in) I fall. All I intend/intended to do is point out that brainwashing could (at least in theory) be compared to juvenility as far as one's ability to give informed consent is concerned.

---

Re (from Dirtclustit):
Quote:
"I'll chime in to say that perhaps this thread should be merged with the other thread ..."
Umm; sure; let's merge it with the other thread. Why not? Both threads are about race and poly. Mods, mods? Admins? Anyone anyone, help help. (Dirtclustit, you must understand that I'm neither mod nor admin, thus pleading to those who are mods/admins is the most I can think of to do to rectify the situation.)

Quote:
"... because quite frankly, I am having trouble understanding the 'problem' you are trying to address or even discuss."
As I attempt to communicate (thoughout millions or billions of personal English dialects), the problem (or is it a problem) I'm trying to address/discuss: Ain't it sad that so many white folks show up to "my" poly potlucks, but so few black (or Native American, or Latino, or Hispanic) folks show? I feel sad about it. I hope it's not because those other races feel left out, or like they have no place in a "white-by-definition" poly potluck, or whatever. Is there anything we "white polyamorists" can do to help make our fellow "not-so-white polyamorists" feel welcome (and even desire to mingle) amongst us?

Re: sounding bigoted ... I don't mean to be dense, but truly I know not how/why I've come across as a bigot. I mean sheesh, my experience as a missionary in Detroit, all by itself, was enough to inspire in me a lifelong love for African Americans (and not the condescending kind, either). For the record, I totally like African Americans (and dark-toned peoples of all nationalities), but if I miscommunicated myself in that regard, I'd appreciate if you'd elaborate on the nature of my miscommunication, because y'see, that way I can do better about not offending anyone in the future and I'm all about that. Examples will probably help me, if you could give me some.

Lots of examples becoz: Helo's statement didn't sound bigoted to me. It just sounded like he was saying, "Hey, I've seen a lot more white than black folks at poly functions; nevertheless I've never seen any black attendee treated badly in any way by the whites in attendance." I suppose you could interpret that as, "Whites are more tolerant than blacks." I just interpret it as meaning, blacks and whites are starting to learn how to come together, in some poly communities at least.

Or, or, if the interpretation be, "Blacks obviously don't have the cojones to be poly like whites do," then I'd say, I think Helo's understanding of the situation is that blacks *do* practice polyamory, they just don't *call it* polyamory. As a whole. Very broadly speaking. Certainly a lot of blacks do indeed call it polyamory, which seems like a hopeful sign for "both races."

Re:
Quote:
"Now, of course it may have been unintentional that he would choose to use the phrase '... they tend to be accepted wholesale ...' because frankly, I find it offensive, and not funny at all."
Whoa whoa whoa! I don't think Helo was trying to be funny. By "wholesale" I think he meant, "in 'bulk' or large quantity, and/or, indiscriminately," rather than, "of or relating to sale in large quantities, for resale," as in the selling of slaves. I trust you're not worried any appreciable portion of whites (or blacks) in the United States is interested in or intent upon the re-established selling of black slaves. True many folks (e.g. whites) are certainly still full of racial hatred, but not so much so that they'd like to re-establish the black slave trade.

Yes I think Helo's choice of the phrase "... they tend to be accepted wholesale ..." was quite unintentional, or more to the point, not at all meant as a reference (serious or silly) to selling (wholesale or piecemeal) human beings. Ironically, prostitutes "sell themselves," but that's a completely off-topic can of worms.

As further irony, pet breeders sell the non-human offspring that they breed. Ahem, see Feelings on "Pets" for more on that particular can of worms.

Re:
Quote:
"I guess under certain circumstances -- like if he were performing a stand up comedy routine where the context is a stand-up comedy routine -- anywhere else that shit isn't funny, especially since his next line is 'get physically involved' which sounds like an assault."
Assault? Hell no. Perhaps Helo inadvertently gave that impression, but I think "get physically involved" was his way of referring to couples (and polycules) of mixed race. The message in essence being, "Hey, isn't it cool that blacks and whites can get romantically involved with each other, and lots of polyamorists are able to accept and support that romance."

Re:
Quote:
"I am fully aware of the many erudite bigoted people who think it is okay to utter such poisonous sentences and clauses so long as it isn't blatant."
Well that makes one of us. Not saying no such thing exists, just saying it's unusual. Knowledge usually lends itself to open-mindedness, though not always. But if you're thinking Helo is somehow furtively trying to blackball blacks or whites, I proffer the consolation that I think he's probably not. I think Helo is all about repairing the tear between various races, not ripping it further open.

So were Helo's sentences inadvertently poisonous? I don't know. Probably to some (many?) people. Seemed fine to me though, based on how I interpreted them.

Re:
Quote:
"It is okay to decide yes or no to any person's love that is offered to you."
Damn rights! You hit the bullseye there, as far as I'm concerned. [meant in all musterable honesty]

Re: race and romance ... well I sure don't know how inclined the "average" soul of one race is to be attracted to a soul of another race. I just know that "bi-racial" romances are A-O-K in my book.

That said, I believe in every individual's right to experience, "choose," and express attraction (not to mention admiration/friendship) towards another able-to-truly-consent person, for really any reason. Looks (I love your face), body shape (I love your curves), mind (I love how you think), or whatever. Whatever gets that individual excited. We should try to be "friends with everyone." But I (on behalf of all humanity including myself) reserve the right to "limit" romance to those cases in which both (or more) people "feel the chemistry" towards each other. It's magic, it's unexplainable, and it's part of what makes romance so inticing.

Re:
Quote:
"You don't need an excuse or reason for who you offer yourself, your life, and your love to share with nor do you need any reason for who you do not."
Ah you took the words out of my mouth.

Re: all this bullshit about Asperger's syndrome ... I lost the relevance of that motif, unless it be that people don't try to accept/get aspies as they are (and note that I myself have been diagnosed Asperger's among other things).

Re: "unrequited love" ... completely allowable on the "shying-away" person's part no matter what his/her reason for shying away. Though respect/friendship (platonic at least) are good things for all of us to shoot for.

Re: the ability of a (man or) woman to transition from mono to poly ... I know it's a real phenomenon, because I've seen it happen. Example: the very MFM V of which I'm a part today. Our lady started out with a monogamous paradigm, but she's nothing if not good at changing her mind after reading up on a subject and getting a new perspective about it.

Re:
Quote:
"The worst kinds of behaviors are the hateful, bigoted ones, and the most dangerous are the ones that aren't recognized, for they are the ones where the fucking idiot claims to be behaving righteously, or worse, laboring for God or Christ."
I'm with you there brother.
Regards,
Kevin T.
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-20-2013 at 01:48 AM.
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  #103  
Old 11-20-2013, 01:48 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Well-that all seemed off topic to me.

A valuable lesson for anyone addressing racial minority issues:

When dealing with any person who is making an effort to understand, it's meaningful to ACCEPT THE EFFORT even if it doesn't meet your personal standard.

I have had no struggle with my multi-racial relationships (romantic, family and friends).
But a large part of our life is spent HEARING people use terms that aren't our *preference* and that is LIFE-it's not bigotry or hatred or even prejudice.

SOME people prefer "black". Some prefer "African American". Some prefer "white". Some prefer "caucasion". Just because someone uses a term you don't prefer-doesn't in any way make them racist. It makes them ignorant of your preferences.
The solution is to simply say that when they are talking to YOU that you prefer xyz term.
As this is a public forum and this specific thread isn't aimed at any specified person-then it's not appropriate to berate someone for using a term or even a series of terms that isn't your preference.

The HEART of Kdt's questions in this thread were positive and not negative or bigoted regarding racial minorities.
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  #104  
Old 11-20-2013, 01:56 AM
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The topics are similar. However-they are in different areas of the board, meaning that they are going to attract a different readership. I'm not inclined to merge them.
If another moderator wants to-so be it. But I'm not inclined to.
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  #105  
Old 11-20-2013, 03:54 AM
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Back on topic for me: I'd to like to give my opinion on these subjects of this thread about Race and Polyamory.~

Race is an illusion.~ It does NOT exist genetically enough in an amount to constitute "Race" as an identity, it is literally only the surface.~

Culture is something that means something to those who live it and appreciate it.~

Therefore let's be clear here: the color of some one's skin or any other physical feature is in no way indicative of the kind of Person they are nor the Culture that they call their own.~

Any one who says otherwise: there is no reasoning with these kinds of people, because they are so deeply ignorant they have made their own world in their heads where every thing they make up is true about every one and they make no attempt to learn any thing that might actually be true about the people they think they know about and if these people try to convince them otherwise they (the ignorant) often will call them (the people in question) liars.~

Therefore the question is not about "Race and Polyamory", but about "Culture and Polyamory" and how they interact together.~

Perhaps, as many on here have already said, the reason it seems that many who profess to practice "Polyamory" as they call it are of certain cultures because other cultures of other people tend to view it differently and may place more or less limitations on it.~

Another reason could be, as others have said, because of many religions that tend to be ingrained in many cultures that tend be connected to a certain brainwashing and very much controlling kind of lifestyles.~

Personally, I don't see it as an issue for myself, it only becomes an issue if you make it an issue.~

In other words, by trying to make a point that "certain people of certain skin colors" are "more or less likely to openly and knowingly practice Polyamory", you are in fact creating and just contributing to a concept that shouldn't even be a concept in the first place.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-20-2013 at 03:57 AM.
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  #106  
Old 11-20-2013, 08:06 AM
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Re: off-topic-ness ... unfortunately, the subject came up that in some black communities, the men have extra wives or girlfriends but the women have no extra husbands or boyfriends. From there, the subject/problems of patriarchal polygyny came up, along with the question of whether the wives of such marriages are or can be consenting. Enter brainwashing and whatever could be compared to it. The thread went off on a tangent, and I'll take the heat for leading it that way. I have no objections to getting back on-topic.

Re (from LovingRadiance):
Quote:
"A valuable lesson for anyone addressing racial minority issues:
When dealing with any person who is making an effort to understand, it's meaningful to *accept the effort* even if it doesn't meet your personal standard."
Agreed.

Re: the right/non-offensive word to use for the various races (and species) ... is quite an awkward riddle. "African American" and "caucasion" are probably the safest terms (as is "non-human people" for, well, non-human members of the animal kingdom), and yet, "black," "white," and "animal" slide so much easier off the tongue; the safest terms seem almost like tongue-twisters in comparison. Guess it depends (like LovingRadiance said) on how sensitive one's audience is about which terms are used, but that's why I don't always use the safest terms: because I'm plain old lazy (and maybe even because mixing it up pleaseth me at times).

They say it's hard to please everyone, and boy is that true in a forum as large, dynamic, and efficacious as Polyamory.com is. When I opened this déjà-vu version of the previous race-and-poly thread (which at the time I didn't know about), I knew I was opening a big can of worms on a sensitive subject. To be honest, I expected to get some flak for it. I'm actually surprised that so many of the responses have been so positive.

Re:
Quote:
"The *heart* of KDT's questions in this thread were positive and not negative or bigoted regarding racial minorities."
I appreciate that (because I sure never meant to be negative or bigoted regarding racial minorities ... or regarding anything, really).

---

Re (from the next post):
Quote:
"The topics are similar. However -- they are in different areas of the board, meaning that they are going to attract a different readership. I'm not inclined to merge them.
If another moderator wants to -- so be it. But I'm not inclined to."
I see your point. Well, something about starting a "fresh thread" on the topic seems to have inspired new expressions of perspective, so maybe it's not all bad to have two threads of a kind floating about. Bottom line: I'll let the mods and admins who are wiser than me decide whether to combine the threads, and I'm fine with it either way.

---

Re: race ... seems to be mostly a skin-tone animal to me, with perhaps a few additional minor genetic differences that I don't even consider worth mentioning. Certainly there's no such thing as any "superior race," in any way.

It does seem to me that people tend to congregate with other people of a similar skin tone. I guess it's a security blanket. The illusion of skin tone seems to reassure us that we'll be mingling with people who share similar values to our own. (Sort of like the reason why self-styled -- and we all style ourselves -- polyamorists congregate in local poly groups and international poly forums. If I call myself a polyamorist, and others are also calling themselves polyamorists, then maybe they're people I can hang with who'll share similar values to mine. Of course, that comforting supposition doesn't always prove to be such a safe bet ...

As for culture per se: I wonder if African Americans are onto something when they hesitate to give "polyamory" a name (or acknowledge that it has a name). Perhaps they realize that nomenclature isn't the secret to saving the world. Actions speak so much louder than words -- I think. But caucasions like me almost have this built-in habit of fancying that "If we just coin the right magic word for things, people's attitudes will change about it." The word for "African American" has changed several times over the past century. Has that race benefitted in proportion to the number of changes? I have to wonder. Oh I suppose it's helped to some extent but, How much? is the question, and, Has it been worth it? Lots of stars-on stars-off Sneetch tactics, it almost seems to me.

Rather than word change/manipulation, I think black/white relations have been helped much more by demonstrations, civil discourse between the races, and things like Martin Luther King Jr.'s unforgettable "I have a dream" speech. I have similar opinions about non-human people's rights, as well as about polyamorist, LGBT, and BDSM rights. I know many will disagree with me. I hope my personal opinion isn't offensive. I regret talking about it in the presence of any who've worked damn hard to fix the English language so as to correct people's foul or ignorant attitudes. I don't mean to diss that work. But if we can't talk about our opinions, then we'll all be missing out on the benefit of choosing between (and gleaning new ideas from) multiple differing perspectives.

Ummm, just for the record: I'm no expert on racial issues, just an "armchair enthusiast." So please feel free to correct any of my false suppositions with any edifying data you have. (Personal perspectives are also welcome.)

I, guess there's no reason to "force things to change." They won't change for a long time anyway. Maybe it'll actually help if we focus on the half-full part of the glass and get encouragement from it.

Sorry if I seem over-zealous about the whole thing. I just miss the presence of African American (and Native American, Latino, Hispanic, etc.) culture when I attend my poly meetings. It's a sentimental problem and technically belongs only to me (though others may carry around their own version of culture-poly problem perception).
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  #107  
Old 11-22-2013, 08:34 AM
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Ah ... at last. Successfully joined https://www.facebook.com/groups/Polyinthenorthwest/ (in no small part due to LovingRadiance's help) and got myself started in at least one of their race-and-poly threads. Have also started doing some more reading on http://blackandpoly.org/ ...

Still hesitating to actually register on a "black poly site" because at least one person (on the NW poly Facebook group) seems to feel it wouldn't be appropriate for a white fellow such as myself to actually post on such sites. Instead his counsel was to lurk, listen, read, etc. with an open mind and without any defensive stuff.

In spite of that, though, I'm actually having more thoughts about registering on http://blackandpoly.org/ ... Still mulling over in my mind whether registering would be appropriate of me to do. If at some point I conclude it would be, I'll probably go ahead and try it.

Every little step helps ... so here's a happy dance.
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Old 11-22-2013, 03:57 PM
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At the blindingly oversimplified, KDT doesn't see many black people formally joining (specific unconventional lifestyle organizations), because he lives in an area with a low population of black people.

Joining overt Groups with "unconventional lifestyle focous" is closely related to advanced education levels, and signifigent levels of income.

This thread comingles lifestyle specific discussion, with larger society discussion.

Where I am : the imeadate rural area has been nearly equal mix of (substantly free) black and white for hundreds of years, with manyof the same families there continously. And a substantial subelement of native American mixed with the black people. All of similar economic backgrounds for multiple generations.
The County while I live , as white , we are the racial minorities>
The the county , and the larger metropolitan area there is a substantial overlapping of educational and socieo/economic of all the groups.
While I may be slipping into Old Fart-hood , the younger generations are dating/ living together if not totally without regards to race, with a substantial percentage of cross-racial, and general acceptance.

When we *used to do what we used to do* , it wasn't a deciding factor , and black, white , and black & white were ( supply terminology). Asian and Hispanic didn't come up.

And no , there isn't a monolithic "black people think/ don't think (whatever)" anymore than it would be for white people.
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Old 11-23-2013, 12:32 AM
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Re:
Quote:
"KDT doesn't see many black people formally joining (specific unconventional lifestyle organizations), because he lives in an area with a low population of black people."
True enough although ... I do (for a few more weeks anyways) live an an area with abundant populations of Native Americans and Hispanics, yet I see few or none from those groups attending the local poly potlucks. Don't know how many are technically members of the local poly group here though.

Out of curiousity, can anyone who lives in an area rich with African American locals, and who attends poly (or other unconventional life choice) functions, testify about how well-attended said functions are by African Americans?

Re:
Quote:
"Joining overt Groups with 'unconventional lifestyle focus' is closely related to advanced education levels, and signifigent levels of income."
That being the case: if African Americans are largely marginalized (read: poor and uneducated), then we do indeed have a problem WRT blacks joining poly groups; it's just not technically due directly to their race/skin tone. The can then gets kicked down the road and the question becomes: How can we (as polyamorists, monogamists, swingers, etc.), especially of the privileged (usually caucasian) classes, improve the lot of so many African Americans and help make them more a part of "the American dream?" If that problem were solved, the poly/race "problem" would then probably "solve" itself.

Interested to know if/how the situation changes wherever whites are the minority race.

Good to hear that the youth of differing races are dating/marrying/etc. one another; bodes well for the future.

Re:
Quote:
"And no, there isn't a monolithic 'black people think/don't think (whatever)' any more than there would be for white people."
Well any group of people (black, white, red, yellow, whatever) might be "pressured into a certain mindset" by social circumstances. Could that be happening here? and as I alluded to on the 20th, it could be that most blacks have the right idea about how to "live the poly dream," while it's most whites who've got it screwed up. Or each race works the matter as suits them best, which I can't blame them for or complain about. Who knows ...

I shouldn't be so whiny about it, but even if I weren't I'd still be curious.
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:42 AM
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Again you are all missing the point, it's not about Black people and White people.~

First of all, most people who claim to be or are called "black" are in fact "brown" and most people who claim to be or are called "white" are in fact a shade of "pink" or "yellow".~

Actual Black skin is not as common as Brown skin and actual White skin is not as common as light Pink and "Yellow" skin.~

Please be more specific when talking about people as this thread is getting highly stereotypical: when you talk about the people in your neighborhood, what are you talking about?~ Were they brought up in an "American culture": what part of "America"? Did they have any other influences to their upbringing: where did these influences come from: their aunt, their grandmother, etc.: were these influences from a different country: what part of that country: what culture was it?~

These are the kinds of questions that need to be answered, saying that "they" are "black" or "white" is just confusing and it really is NOT saying anything at all!~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-23-2013 at 05:20 AM.
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