Feelings on "Pets"

Re (from LovingRadiance):

"I was actually in completely agreement with you."

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Cool beans. Grant amount of freedom that's appropriate for the person (human or non) in question. Our pets don't exactly have outdoor freedom, but they do have the run of the house. Just a bit more freedom, to go along with their freedom from 99% of all streets-and-forests dangers.

You have to try to account for what your pet's heart and mind can endure. Wolves and tigers are strong-hearted and adult-minded. Whatever my personal opinions about wildlife and non-intervention by humans, I can at least agree that a wolf and a tiger are far better suited for total independence than a dog or a housecat.

I find that with pets, lots can depend on whether they live in the city or the country. But there are always risks to be weighed, and the importance is tantamount that they have the freedom to return home if/when they want. So many indoor-only pets would be deprived of that freedom once they were outside on their own. They need a safe way to roam, and a safe way to return.

Humans do mature more than your typical pet animal, and as they age, they become increasingly able to handle independence -- within the infrastructure of whichever human world/culture they live in. And by genetic design, human parents are the best-suited candidates for guiding human children from childhood into adulthood. Humans *don't* have the needed traits to allow them to train cats, dogs, wolves, tigers, or any other kind of non-human person. All a human can train a non-human to do is to perform human-oriented tasks and tricks. Nothing however, that would relate to that non-human's lone survival on the streets and in the woods.

Re (also from LovingRadiance):

"kdt -- *Now* I understand how you manage to continue responding! Because you *do* have the time."

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Uh yeah, that's right. Human pet right here, in the flesh, at your service. How may I help you today?

Having said that, this thread and the "Shame re: body parts; self-hatred" thread have been sucking up *all* of my time. I get further and further and further behind on everything else. I kind of don't like it (yet I apparently do like it since I let it keep me captive). Other people on other threads may need my attention too, and they're not getting it. Makes me feel like quite a Polyamory.com failure (and don't even get me started on stuff like facebook which is neglected to the neglected power). Not to mention the emotional beatings I often take on these two threads. I'm trying to watch real carefully to see when it's the right time for me to stop talking to ColorsWolf (or Dirtclustit). As I said on the "Body Parts" thread, I do have some responsibility to look after my own emotional well-being. I do need boundaries. Somewhere.

Anyways. Don't be sorry. I appreciate "pet life" as much as any "standard pet," and am pretty darn dependent on my "masters" if not 100% dependent. I suppose if thrown out on the street I'd find some way to survive ... probably by wending my way to Vashon Island in Washington and becoming the human pet of my older brother and his wife. Just would have to survive the journey somehow. No small feat there ...

Your Response is exactly why I Responded

and exactly why I did they way I did. I did not in any way threaten you, Kevin, or whomever had been posting as if they were you. I don't understand most of the coded terms in your words, even though I have been, in the past, a Ward Clerk, but I sense more hostility in your words than anybody here, the only exception being those who were supposedly banned, yet come to find it was only one of their profiles.

Perhaps you have trouble understanding my non-coded words because you have no respect for truth, or not enough, to recognize the truth in my words.

From your words posted in response to ColorsWolf, you continuously outright lie, or if you prefer intentionally mask your hostility which comes across as even more threatening, because of this, I will assume that you have absolutely no authority because if you did your behavior indicates you would abuse it.

I understand how wrongfully afflicted people can be who are associated with any form of non-traditional relationships, I also have first hand experience with being wrongfully and excessively afflicted by alternative online and real life communities, and the way I deal with abuse and terrorism is exactly the same way, as they both thrive in a very misleading, and distorted sense of reality.

All of the ability to terrorize and abuse is damn near removed when the truth can be distinguished from lies. Truth recognizes no authority other than those who recognize IT, and who fully respect it, which means to live responsibly, which means to always do the next right thing, which if nothing else means to begin the practice of honesty

So you either must either state your grievances -- as I fully agree that any character who is here with malice intended (which can also include simply intimidation), such as those who do not refrain from afflicting others who do harm -- so that they can be dealt with, because I do not tolerate vigilantism, and truthfully have little tolerance for those who use code to slight, threaten, or even marginalize anyone or anything.

And if you have none, please keep your tacitly implied and embarrassingly hypocritical alter-ego in check, as it isn't worth cashing

opalescent said:

But I thought I would ask a cat related question. Tiny Cat is not letting me sleep as much as I need to sleep. I am so tired and frustrated I've mulled over if I need to find her another home.

I am so frustrated. Ideas?

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I wish I had a dime for every time I was woken up by Olympic Sprints through the bedroom, and a nickel for every time Pinky woke me up by poking me in the boobs. She's very deliberate when she wants me up. She walks on me very slowly and pointedly until I either get the message or blow in her face, which she hates.

When I was little, we adopted a cat from the humane society. She was so glad to be out of there and regarded me as her saviour, she came and slept with me, purring so loudly I couldn't sleep. I was young and stupid, so the obvious solution seemed to lock her upstairs (my room was in the basement). I fear that played a large part in the traumatized, skittish, antisocial behaviour she developed. But could also be that she was a barn cat and didn't get enough human attention as a kitten. My mom getting her declawed surely didn't help matters. Poor thing.

I don't think there's much you can do about her playing, but for her deliberately waking you up, the best thing is to never ever ever give in. If you'd prefer to sleep until 7, then stay in bed until 7 even if she won't let you sleep. She may or may not get the message eventually, but you'd be surprised at how much rest you can get lying in bed awake, just not being "up."

Dagferi said:

FeLV is transmitted cat to cat. Along with FIV FIP..

Can't tell you how many outdoor cats my practice sees every week that get themselves seriously hurt outdoors. Mainly scrapping with other cats.

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I've tried to reason with my cats on the merits of staying indoors. Don't need to tell you how that worked out. I settle for annual check-ups and all the vaccines my vet recommends.

My philosophy is that in the wild, animals get into fights sometimes, and sometimes they die. I look at how much enjoyment my cats get out of going outside and weigh it against the risk of them contracting a disease or getting injured. Not only their enjoyment outside, but their obvious misery staring out the window when locked inside, and their vocal demands to be allowed out. Their opinion on the matter is crystal clear.

Both of my cats have spent time in the pet ER over injuries due to cat fights. I've learned the hard way that Meika and Ketamine are not good buddies. Morphine also makes her freak the fuck out. Pinky's most recent encounter resulted in house arrest for the remainder of the summer, as it was the second time in 3 months and her previous injury had just barely healed. This time, at least, she was able to heal herself without antibiotics. I just had to shave the area, rinse it out the once, and let her tongue do the rest. Now that it's winter, house arrest is over since she's never gone more than 10 minutes before her toes get cold and she's done with that nonsense.

For a while, I kept a window open so they could come and go as they pleased. That ended quickly when I woke up to a big black tomcat greeting me in the kitchen like it was the most normal thing in the world. "Well good morning, Monkey. Fine lady cats you have there. What's for breakfast?"

Dirtclustit,

I honestly don't think we're "speaking the same language." Sure we're both speaking English, but my words seem coded to you, your words seem coded to me, and yet we both see our own words as un-coded. Sounds to me like two different dialects of the same language.

Re: hostility ... I won't just dismiss that charge against me out of hand. It's true that I don't make myself 100% vulnerable on this (or any) forum, and sometimes I "disguise my hurt feelings" with diplomacy. I don't like my enemies to know that they're getting to me. But beyond that, you've nothing to fear from me beyond words ... "just words."

Re:

"I will assume that you have absolutely no authority because if you did your behavior indicates you would abuse it."

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Could be; don't know; haven't experienced this strange thing called authority because I've never had it, and certainly don't have it now. I'm no expert, no moderater, no administrator, no custodian, no nothing. Just some puny little guy with no job, virtually no chores, and lots and lots of time on his hands with which he amazingly accomplishes next to nothing.

I'm sorry you don't believe that I'm trying to be honest. I don't know how to prove my sincerity, so I'll just respect your right to see me as you do.

My grievances? only that there's so damn much hostility on this site (and there's sites much worse than this) as a whole. I ask every member here, right now: Why? Why? Is it so awful to contemplate treating each other like valuable human beings, rather than obsessively one-upping each other all the time? Bit of hyperbole on my part perhaps, but jeezh, as polyamorists we're already "outcasts;" must we outcast each other as well?

Again, sorry for giving offense. Not intended.

---

Re (from SchrodingersCat):

"My philosophy is that in the wild, animals get into fights sometimes, and sometimes they die. I look at how much enjoyment my cats get out of going outside and weigh it against the risk of them contracting a disease or getting injured. Not only their enjoyment outside, but their obvious misery staring out the window when locked inside, and their vocal demands to be allowed out. Their opinion on the matter is crystal clear."

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Understandable. Exactly the reason Shipley was an indoor/outdoor cat. He definitely had the passion for the outdoors in his heart. I just wish he wouldn't have had to pay for it so dearly. He didn't deserve that punishment.

That's all for now.
Regards,
Kevin T.

OK

so I guess you weren't talking about humans as pets, I guess you weren't alluding to BDSM dynamics and indoor meaning sex within a specific set of people and outdoor being outside of that group?

I guess you were not physically threatening people who did not threaten you, I guess you weren't intimidating other users by "implying" you know where they live

Come to think it, why would anybody take offense at your completely transparent, honest attempts to have a discussion on sensitive topics, that people may have a hard time divulging their view, and your complete sincerity makes them feel all that much better about themselves, excepts that it's not sincere, so

No it doesn't, it sounds manipulative, you say that's not what you meant, and for some reason I don't believe you, so it is probably I good idea, if I don't respond to you. I am definitely down for that

Huh?

Kevin, "Since we seem to agree that cats and dogs are genetically-malformed creatures in that they have the lifelong "mind of a child," I suggest comparing letting them out unsupervised to letting a four-year-old human child outdoors unsupervised. What, deprive that child of the chance to be fierce, wild, and free? Ummm yes as a matter of fact, that's exactly what a responsible human parent will do -- obviously."

Woah, woah, woah, we have no such agreement.~

I regard all creatures as children when they are in fact children, but when they are adults I consider them in fact adults no less capable than any other creature of living an independent life of their own in their own way.~

This capability is often squashed and squandered by the popularly accepted practice of "infantilizing" "Pets": which is the practice of retarding or "inhibiting" their mental growth.~

Any mentality "of a child" in an adult is almost always a result of horrible parenting.~

Most healthy non-Human creatures are not comparable to a Human child unable to progress farther than than their child-like state, to make this comparison is to throw blame off of the parents responsible for this non-Human creature and forsake all responsibility for their actions.~


Your examples are truly sad and I know first hand what it is like to have a dear family member die because of circumstances out of your control like my brother Parrot Fred and because of circumstances I think I could have controlled like my Brother Cheeto but I didn't think of it that way at the time, because it was a vision I had in my dreams and I didn't understand its' meaning until it was too late.~

But this happens to every one, Human or not, we do the best we think we know how to do with our children and those we love and we release them to go out into the world on their own to live it free: they don't always come back, they may take different paths then we hoped for them, and they may, as we all will, die, all we can do after they are on their own is to try be there for them when we can to offer them guidance, warmth, any object they might need, and our love.~

I have no answer to your abstract questions.~

I don't believe the world owes any one any thing.~

Even if you are the best person you think you are or others think you are, that doesn't mean things you find horrible will never happen to you regardless of what creature you are.~

We live our lives knowing all the horrible things in life we don't like could happen to us at any time, but the fact that we have the freedom to live our lives how we choose to helps us understand what "life" is.~

I don't think you understand what it means to be "wild" or "independent".~

Without "danger", there is no "safety", without "sadness", there is no "joy", you can not truly appreciate "life" if no one ever "died", you can not truly appreciate "freedom" if you have never been "coddled", and you can not truly appreciate being "cared for" if you have never been "free".~

ColorsWolf said:

I regard all creatures as children when they are in fact children, but when they are adults I consider them in fact adults no less capable than any other creature of living an independent life of their own in their own way.~

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You can regard them however you want, but evolutionary biology disagrees with you. Since the science has been experimentally confirmed, and you are just making shit up on the internet, I'm siding with science.

Domestication causes changes in the brains of domesticated animals. These changes cause them to be stuck at adolescent development as compared to their undomesticated ancestors. Physically adult cats don't think the same way as adult lynx or lions. Adult dogs don't think like adult wolves. They think like juveniles who have not yet left the pack because they don't have the maturity to make it on their own. That's one reason why domesticated animals have such short life spans in the wild.

You don't have to believe it. There will always be ignorant people who refuse to accept the validity of the scientific method. Thankfully, your kind have the rest of us around to make sure their computers keep getting invented and their vaccines get developed (and that they get protected by the increasingly-threatened herd immunity) and that new antibiotics are developed when they dismiss the whole "finish your prescription" thing.

I would weary of calling psychology a science

science has the ability to separate out truth from lies, there has been much psychological research that has been done, but done quietly, that by most peoples definitions would be called a religion.

Some people might call it a philosophy, but it is one I firmly believe in. And I do believe human beings cannot be considered animals, as I do not believe animals can be held accountable, I can't speak for ColorsWolf, by I suspect it might be possible that they were speaking of the innocence of a child being not responsible -- as in being held accountable -- until they are adults. That all animals which are not Human Beings are accountable, even the adults of non-humans, but also the children of Human Beings

In some ways you must first recognize you have a choice, and then choose the right, to become part of a deserving life that has authority, at least that is what I put my faith in, they those who chose wrong will lose all power and control because they could not voluntarily choose to recognize what is the responsible way to live so that your freedoms and liberties exercised do not leave you with a debt to all life.

animals and children don't have accounts that any banks I know of or recognize as having anything authority in this River that is the dun-colored water that is the blood of life

Neurology, not psychology. I'm not just talking about behavioural tests, although there's plenty of evidence there as well. I'm talking about brain dissections comparing the actual brain development between many species at different ages. Sexually mature, "adult" cats and dogs don't develop the brain structures present in adults of their wild associates. After several generations of ferality, however, these structures show up again.

If you spoon-feed your child from birth until maturity, and in other ways inhibit their ability to use their hands, they will fail to develop the motor skills to feed themselves. This will show up as underdeveloped brain tissue in the region of the brain responsible for fine motor skills. The potential is still there in their DNA, but without practice and necessity, those structures just don't develop. If you were to then turn this child out on their own, they wouldn't be able to learn how to hold a spoon because they would have missed the developmental window. Oh, they might be able to fist grab it and manage to shove some food in their mouths, but they would never do calligraphy.

It's the same thing with kibble-feeding your cats for 2 years and then throwing them out in the backyard to fend for themselves. Their brains just don't know how to do it. Oh sure, they still have enough instinct to chase and pounce on mice, and they might be able to "survive." But they certainly wouldn't thrive and as soon as the food supply gets tight, they'll be the first to go.

Saying that being held responsible is the difference between animals and humans is completely arbitrary. He wasn't saying that people aren't animals. He was saying that animals are people.

You speak in riddles. I've had a bank account since I was 6.

OK SchrodingersCat

It's turned into another debate to prove who is right and who is wrong.

I was talking about accountability, a metaphorical bank account. But that was a nice slap, you debate well.

and due to the fact that nearly every post here flips back and forth between hostility and warmth, speaking one minute of animals and the next human pets, I am not having an easy time dealing with it.

I don't agree with your views on animals, on pets (either human or dogs and cats)

I wish I could get you to understand how your words come across, but I honestly do not believe you are not aware.

It's not my place to tell you how you can and cannot treat people who come here, gaslighting sucks, but I do believe you know these things.

but if you believe you are honestly trying to understand me, I don't believe you, so I should probably go my own way rather than argue with you.

It's not that agree with ColorsWolf and think that profile right and when you post from yours wrong

It's that from my view, you do the same thing to the ColorsWolf profile as you do to me, claim you are seriously attempting to understand, when you are intentionally disagreeing and being argumentative.

it's the same story over and over again. The perfect example illustrated in this thread and all "cross pollinated" threads and kdt's thread on racial aspects of polyamory

You all claim to be sincere, and I don't believe it, in fact I view it as intentionally insincere, but my opinion appears as the minority, and frankly, I don't like the way people treat others here, even if it is all an act or an abusive test.

So I will just leave it at that

Part 1 of 2

Re (from Dirtclustit):

"So I guess you weren't talking about humans as pets, I guess you weren't alluding to BDSM dynamics and indoor meaning sex within a specific set of people and outdoor being outside of that group?"

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Emm no I don't believe so, I was just talking about certain humans (and these do exist surprisingly) who think of themselves as pets towards other humans (somtimes in a romantic context). Yes it's a kind of kink, but nothing about "indoor" meaning "sex within a certain group of people" or "outdoor" meaning "sex outside that group." Sorry about the miscommunication on my part.

Re:

"I guess you were not physically threatening people who did not threaten you, I guess you weren't intimidating other users by 'implying' you know where they live."

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What? No I wasn't physically (nor even verbally) threatening anyone (though I did objurgate a few persons for what I saw as threats on their part). Implying that I know where *any* other members live? What would be the point? I have no such knowledge (and if I did, I wouldn't use it without that member's express permission).

Sorry if stuff I said made you feel hurt, attacked, lied to, manipulated, or anything of the kind. I acknowledge that we're dealing with sensitive topics that a lot of people probably barely dare to talk about.

You feel I'm not sincere. I see that I'm not trustworthy in your eyes. There's no way I can disprove that (unless continued attempts at peacemaking count as proof). I respect your opinion of me because it's based on the knowledge you have. Doesn't make me feel great about myself but I'm sure I'll live.

Sorry that we can't seem to have a civil discourse. I hope you'll live well and not be troubled by the nastiness we've experienced here. Time does heal all wounds, as they say.

---

Re (from ColorsWolf):

"I regard all creatures as children when they are in fact children, but when they are adults I consider them in fact adults no less capable than any other creature of living an independent life of their own in their own way."

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Even dogs and housecats? Awww crap, I thought we'd come to an agreement about that. Well sorry, that was my misunderstanding.

Re:

"Any mentality 'of a child' in an adult is almost always a result of horrible parenting."

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But what I don't get is, how can a human be a parent to a non-human? Humans don't have the kind of instincts and expertise for such a job, do they? Alas I fear that "master" or in some cases "mere companion" is about the most any human is qualified to be towards any non-human. I guess if you want to call that "just excusing myself and giving up," you're quite entitled to that opinion; I admit I don't try to train my pets (of whatever age) to become wild and live outdoors. Truth is I don't even think that's good for them. But then I'm the odd duck here who pities naturally wild animals as well and wishes humans could find better ways to help take care of them. So again, I am a "helicopter parent" towards all non-human people: I believe in "swooping down" and rescuing them whenever they're in trouble. Horrible parent indeed. I accept the moniker.

Thing is, I don't even believe we should try to be parents toward any non-humans, at all. I can see assuming roles such as protector, steward, even just admirer (e.g. from afar). But parent? inappropriate in my opinion unless parent and child are both of the same species.

Even taking two non-human people of two different species who become great friends: one non-human person doesn't try to "parent" the other non-human person, they just both stick together and huddle together for warmth, comfort, and companionship. Which is coincidentally exactly what your average "pet owner" and his/her "pet" do.

I believe in humans raising humans. I don't believe in humans raising non-humans. Sorry if that attitude offends your sensibilities. It is the best I know of for now (and as always I am willing to hear the other side, even if I can't guarantee I'll change my mind or agree).

I suppose the obvious argument would be that humans are unfit to keep company with non-humans, period. Maybe so, maybe so. Would find it a relatively lonesome life to do without pets (or zoos or even keeping company with non-human people in the wild, lest I, being a human, inadvertently plant/nurture the seed/sapling of domestication in said non-humans), but I guess I'd survive. There seems to be enough for me to do.

Re:

"I don't believe the world owes anyone anything."

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I suppose it doesn't. It's just a world circling around the Sun which is essentially the only thing it can do. And it's not like we've done anything special for it.

Point being, bad things happen to good people? I agree, and that's true of indoor pets, outdoor pets, and non-pets. Just that the odds are a little better indoors (even for humans) ...

Re: freedom ... it's not hard for me to appreciate the viewpoint that it sucks to throw away one's freedom for the sake of security. That's just what America did when we came up with that damned Patriot Act. But as I said to Dirtclustit, it's really all about the details in the end. What is the nature of the "freedom" being discussed, versus the nature of the "security" that the freedom is being traded for? Sometimes a very-universal-sounding concept/principle/idea actually doesn't perfectly fit all situations. You often have to go case-by-case, that's what I believe.

Re:

"I don't think you understand what it means to be 'wild' or 'independent.'"

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Hell no I don't understand what such things mean. I've never been wild or independent. I've always depended on other people in one way or another. Cripes, I've never even lived alone -- ever. And always, whatever people I've lived with, they've tended to be the ones to shoulder the jobs of tending to the bills and logistics and other "adult things." I almost always just "coasted along for the ride." So you could easily say that I myself don't have the mind of an adult. Bad parenting by my own mom and dad I guess, which is odd since they were always so adamant that we become independent with a capital "I." I'd think they must be disappointed with how I turned out, but they don't criticize me for my childliness these days, which seems like a kindness.

Re: law of opposites (i.e. to comprehend "X," one must experience both "X" and "not-X") ... arguable but I'm uncertain about subscribing to it 100%. Seemingly some truth to it at least. But one thing I *don't* believe is that suffering is somehow inherently or ultimately good per se. Sure we can make the best of bad things -- which I consider to be to our own credit, not to the credit of the bad things themselves.

---

Re: animals and people ... quite a side issue but in case getting us all on the same page matters, can we agree that scientists classify humans as one kind of animal (i.e., a subset of the animal kingdom)?

[continued below]

Part 2 of 2

[continued from above]

Re (from SchrodingersCat):

"Sexually mature, 'adult' cats and dogs don't develop the brain structures present in adults of their wild associates. After several generations of ferality, however, these structures show up again."

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So possibly less than ten thousand years will do the trick of re-wilderness-wiring feral cats and dogs. Sigh. Mixed feelings about that but I admit it makes kicking all the adult pets out of the house (unless they prove they don't want to be kicked out?) a relatively better solution than I'd previously thought. Let's just say that even "several generations" of suffering amongst these newly-freed pets seems to me like an awfully steep price to pay.

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Re (from Dirtclustit):

"Due to the fact that nearly every post here flips back and forth between hostility and warmth, speaking one minute of animals and the next human pets, I am not having an easy time dealing with it."

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Do you mean that there's too much rapid change (for at least one or more of us) in the tone and content of this thread's posts? (No attack here, just wondering.)

Does gaslighting suck? I must admit that it does.

Re:

"If you believe you are honestly trying to understand me, I don't believe you, so I should probably go my own way rather than argue with you."

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Well, sometimes "parting ways" verbally/postwise speaking is a better alternative than just going back and forth with the endless punches (be they intentional or unintentional).

Re:

"It's that from my view, you do the same thing to the ColorsWolf profile as you do to me, claim you are seriously attempting to understand, when you are intentionally disagreeing and being argumentative."

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Fine line between "truly listening" and "just biding one's time while thinking up a snappy retort." I hope we'll all consider that reality and try to improve ourselves in it because it tends to plague us all.

Re:

"You all claim to be sincere, and I don't believe it, in fact I view it as intentionally insincere, but my opinion appears as the minority, and frankly, I don't like the way people treat others here, even if it is all an act or an abusive test."

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Okay, so this isn't about SchrodingersCat or even me, it's about all of us ("us" being defined as everyone on Polyamory.com except ColorsWolf and Dirtclustit I guess -- I don't know).

Well gee I don't like the way people treat others here either, though I don't believe it's all an act or an abusive test.

Jeesus man, how do you even stand our company believing we're all intentional liars? Polyamory is all about honesty, so if you are an honest person then you are subjecting yourself to a forum that is rather beneath you. I don't know what you should do about that, but it must suck logging on here every day only to get exposed to more abuse. What little I've felt of that feeling sure hasn't been too enjoyable.

Okay, while I enjoy a good, healthy discussion and debate, this is killing my brain cells. I hereby resolve to only post pet pictures to this thread from here on out (unless I get asked something directly, since it would be rude to not respond, y'see).

So... Because this is all beginning to make no sense, here is a picture of a cat with a pancake on his head:

LOL; a pancake on his head? W'll, why? This makes even less sense than ever ...

"That's right; we need to keep pets because by golly, someone's gotta put a pancake on someone's head! and it ain't gonna be my head either, let me tell ya."

Ahem; sorry for those question marks. Didn't mean to put you in a downright uncomfortable spot.

Thank you for the pic, and the (temporary) relief that went with it.
Sincerely (or am I ... heheheheh, you'll never know ...),
Kevin T.

The only way you are not being an emotional predator

is if more than one person is posting from your profile kdt, so no I don't accept your apology, nor your insistence of your intent being not ill natured

To do so would an indirect way of me saying your behavior is OK, it is not

and their are enough forums, websites, interest groups and what not that I there doesn't need to be any overlap.

In my eyes it is about boundaries and respect, and it much more than just one member of your family's behavior.

It is the entire family, perhaps multiple families. But yes, I should not have ignored this for as long as I did

It would best if I left it at that

Wow -- getting hard to even get a word in edgewise. Anticipating possible thread lock-down by mods. Which'd be a shame because much of this thread has actually been uplifting. All good things must come to an end though, I suppose.

Re:

"The only way you are not being an emotional predator is if more than one person is posting from your profile kdt ..."

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Jesus, okay, I'm an emotional predator! After all, that pejorative is both impossible to prove/disprove, and impossible to define in such a way that everyone will agree. So: Guilty. But to the charge of being one of multiple persons using the kdt26417 account: I plead innocent. Unless ... if you believe I might (or do) have multiple personalities, I can see that (for argument's sake). Different personalities tapping into the same account: that would make more sense.

Gods, the silliness. Me, purposely looking for people I can emotionally abuse. Have I been known to emotionally abuse people in the past? Absolutely guilty as (self-)charged. But my meds have been well-enough tweaked for a long time by now that I at least externally hold it together (like, 99% of the time?). And furthermore, *seeking out* emotional victims to get off on was never my cup of tea. The emotional abuse I spewed out was always because I just plain lost it in a state of rage and panic, not because in my deepest heart of hearts I wanted to act that way.

But, I do agree with ColorsWolf that virtually everything we experience must be taken as subjective because (even though it's probably objective per se) it becomes subjective once it passes through the filters of our individual minds.

In the here and now (at the very least), I've become known far and wide as a wimp that a fly wouldn't fear. But, if here, on this thread/board/forum, I am making people feel as if I'm purposely hunting them down, then at the least I have failed to communicate in a humane fashion and as such, I will ask pardon/forgiveness even if it's a vain/hopeless request. I will try to do better, believe it or not.

Re:

"... so no I don't accept your apology ..."

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Not a problem, because: you weren't required to accept it. As I understand it, the word "apology" means a *request* for pardon/forgiveness, not a *demand* for such.

Re:

"... nor your insistence of your intent being not ill-natured ..."

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Again I accept your non-acceptance, because I never meant to require you to take me at my word; I only expressed sadness because it looked like you wouldn't and couldn't take me at my word. But I admit I'm sad now too to have been right about that prognosis. I admit that I do wish you'd trust me (if only a little). Without any trust, how can we function at all?

From my point of view, if my intent is ill-natured, then I've successfully 100% fooled myself into supposing the opposite of that truth. No need to believe me; I'm just stating it for the record.

If you want to assert that my behavior is not okay, then I will accept your right to assert that (and won't try to prove you wrong). My behavior may very well be totally un-okay. Again like ColorsWolf (as far as I understand) might say, it's all subjective to each one of us so I could certainly (subconsciously) trick myself into thinking my behavior's great when it's actually deplorable. But if you really want to know the truth, I'm not feeling so self-confident about my behavior at the moment. I'm quite worried that I'm possibly screwing up big-time here, somehow saying the wrong thing, etc.

Re:

"There are enough forums, websites, interest groups and whatnot that there doesn't need to be any overlap."

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Ummm ... do you mean that I should just stick to participating on Polyamorous Percolations and leave Polyamory.com alone?

If so: Jeeezh. Since it's not actually illegal to participate on multiple forums, I guess I'll just keep doing that misdeed, as my mom once sneeringly quoted me when I was a kid: "because I feel like it!" There are limits to what I'm willing to do ...

If not: then I'm totally confused and don't understand what you mean. It's not a crime for me to be an idiot, right? If it's not, then I reckon I must be blameless in my state of incomprehension here. And while clarification/re-statement/examples might help and would be appreciated, I neither expect nor require you to thus indulge me.

Re:

"In my eyes it is about boundaries and respect, and it's much more than just one member of your family's behavior."

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Emm, okay, but just in case someone will believe me: I've neither blood relatives nor chosen relatives with accounts on this forum that I know of (and would be shocked to find out I had any that I didn't know of).

But if you mean, "KDT, stop blaming your family for your own wretched behavior," then I'll agree to stop doing that (if I was doing that). I'm (at least technically) an adult and should take responsibility for my own actions by now.

Re:

"It is the entire family, perhaps multiple families. But yes, I should not have ignored this for as long as I did ..."

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Wait ... are we still talking about just me, or the site membership as a whole? When you say multiple families, I don't know if you mean that literally or figuratively or ...

Hubboy. This just can't be good ... for any of us.

P.S.

Uh, was just wondering if we could set the above post aside for a moment, and allow me to ask/request of you the following: instructions on some way, any way, that I could possibly convince you that I'm not out to get you (emotionally or otherwise)? What do you need me to do differently that would fix the situation?

Now I admit, there are some things I can't and/or won't do, such as:

• throw my cat out on the street,
• stop intentionally rejecting the truth (unless you can explain to me, in terms I can grasp, how I'm intentionally doing so),
• stop posting on this thread,
• stop posting on this forum,
• stop posting on any forum.

The above probably shouldn't be construed as a comprehensive list, especially as addled as my brain currently feels. But even if it's something I wouldn't and/or couldn't do, I'd still like to at least know what I'd need to do to restore your confidence in me, just so I'd at least know where I'd gone wrong. I even hold out an outside hope that there might be something I could bring myself to accomodate you on, but first I need your help; I need you to tell me what that would be. Something that would prove to you (or at least give you some hope) that I could be trusted.

For instance, would you like me to stop responding to your posts? I'm willing to do that (if you'll at least request it of me). What else. There must be other things I could talk myself into doing too that would help. If you can think of any, I'd be much obliged if you'd be willing to let me know.

For the record: No sarcasm, ridicule, criticism, or anything of the like is intended in this post. Just a last desperate attempt at diplomacy, I suppose. (And I would prefer silence to the utter lack of diplomacy -- I direct that sentiment at myself not you.)

Sorry everyone if I'm just making it worse and worse (and I'm a-feared that I am). Just thought I'd ask. Please lend me your pardon if I'm beating a dead horse.

kdt26417 said:

LOL; a pancake on his head? W'll, why? This makes even less sense than ever ...

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And THAT is exactly why.
My work here is done.

And, if I may break my own rule (that I just put in place) this once...

kdt26417 said:

Sorry everyone if I'm just making it worse and worse (and I'm a-feared that I am). Just thought I'd ask. Please lend me your pardon if I'm beating a dead horse.

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Kevin?

Breathe.
Get away from the computer and - yes - the boards. Go enjoy those people you live with, or the pets, or some fresh air, or maybe even a snack and/or a drink. Just get offline for a while. It's good for you. Like broccoli.