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  #151  
Old 11-09-2013, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YouAreHere View Post
I do believe I've just been schooled on how to wipe my own butt.
At any rate, I was mostly being facetious - I do know people who carry wet-wipes around. I'm just not one of them. If you prefer not to shake hands, I'll understand.
Oh pl-ease!~ This stereotype needs to stop.~ I know people in other countries that don't use toilet paper have this 'custom' about 'not shaking hands with the left hand as that is the one used to wipe yourself clean', but they also use soap and water to clean their butts and their hands again afterwards, this is no different than working in a sewer and taking a shower afterwards or accidentally touching dog-poop with your bare hands and then washing them with hot soap and water so there is no reason why this whole 'shaking hand rules should even be a 'thing''.~ -.-

You really have absolutely no idea how clean some one's hand really is no matter what country you are in.~

I prefer to rely on my sense of sight to see if some one's hand is "clean" or "smell" people's hands if they want me to shake them or ask them if they washed their hands, or I "bow" to those who don't like physical contact at first, and I LOVE to hug people by asking them first then doing it if they give they me the go ahead.~ ^_^
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-09-2013 at 05:08 AM.
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  #152  
Old 11-09-2013, 05:11 AM
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Thank you so much Kevin for your wonderful understanding and points of view!~ ^_^

Love,

ColorsWolf
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  #153  
Old 11-09-2013, 08:48 AM
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Default Part 1 of 2

No problem, I'm glad if none of that three-part post caused a problem.

I guess this is overkill, but there are things I should make sure I clear up. I guess if this was a Hoarders episode, my flat would be packed full of posts that were so long and numerous that they killed the threads they were posted in.

Right, so, having slept on it, it occurred to me that I still made quite light of a lot of things in that three-part post, things you probably feel I should have taken quite seriously. So let's start with that?

I probably take those things a fair sight more serious than my twisted communication conveyed. Uh, for example ...
  • I don't *really* hate being told to "stop being Mr. Funny" when there's really nothing funny at all about my so-called funniness. Just entertaining myself. Not worth doing that at anyone else's expense.
  • I get that physical filthiness is no laughing matter, considering it's known to spread disease in many cases. Look, let me try to state my case another way. Suppose you were asking me to take a jump with a bungee cord. Technically, I'd be in no danger if I did it (and theoretically I'd like it?). But psychologically, I don't think I could get myself to take that big of a dare even I was ordered to do so at gunpoint. Completely illogical on my part? Oh yes. But, the brain (whether this be a good or bad thing) isn't a completely logical instrument. Sometimes it's completely, irrationally emotional. And I guess I was raised to be so content with "the American way" of toileting that by now I just can't be talked into making a change for the better. "This dog is too old to learn that new trick." Regrettable, but earnestly true.
  • I don't *really* think it's clever of me to argue about which country uses bidets the most frequently. Who cares if it's France or Italy or Timbuktu? The point is, whichever countries are using them are doing it right, and hopefully the practice will eventually spread all over the globe. In the meantime, there's no reason us citizens of "non-bidet countries" couldn't utilize some creativity and essentially accomplish the same results.
  • I don't *know* that *any* country has (still has?) hole-in-the-ground toilets, and even if I did know, I'd still also know that it was a dumb thing to argue about. The only thing that really matters here is that we should all want better hygiene to become increasingly widespread, and however that improvement could be accomplished would be super. Right now, raising awareness is probably about the best anyone can do to work on the issue, so since you have helped awareness to be raised, I'm convinced that you've done a good thing.
  • I'm actually quite serious when I say I'd gladly use a bidet with a "jet sprayer." Too bad that probably really is too expensive for my budget, and unfortunately I highly doubt any store in the United States carries such an item. Yes, I know there are "lid-style bidets" in America, even if I don't get how they work. It's just that if I can't have my coveted "jet-sprayer bidet," I'd prefer the "bathtub approach" to any other kind of bidet. And of course we already know I'm too chicken/conditioned/whatever it is to go that way: unfortunate but true.
  • Re: any restroom that has neither tub nor bidet ... if forced to go #2 there, the "bidet substitute" I'd prefer would be the flushable wipes that I do know you can buy in the United States. But as already stated, I just don't find that I can talk myself out of the ritual I was trained/conditioned/programmed to follow. It's not even the expense involved that's stopping me. Hmmm, that's pretty sad, isn't it. I won't rule out "psychological miracles" in the future, but at this moment the prospect of that "jump with a bungee cord" has sucked my reserves of courage and sensibility clean dry.
Believe it or not I did try to tone down the humor on that three-part post. Hopefully the above list tones it down the rest of the way.

And some *non-joke* material that could also use some clarifying/completion:
  • Re: killing ... the "He would have killed me eventually" example was a weak example on multiple levels. Sooo, skip that example and just hear me when I say that I hold humans to a different standard because of humans' exceptional thinking capacities and generally large range of options. Now that's not to say there couldn't be any number of allowable reasons for a human to take a life. It's just to say that a human should carefully consider (as much as available time allows) the ethical ramifications of any killing he/she has any reason to do. That principle applies to just about any kind of decision (about any kind of action), but it especially applies to something as serious as killing. Killing is always a very big deal, especially for a human. But as long as all that is accounted for, then we can see why the Sling Blade example works (even for me).
  • Re: harming to eat ... oops, I spaced on the scenario of say, one animal attacking another animal in order to get that other animal out of the way of the first animal's food. O-kay ... so, would any of the animals that come to my mind do such a thing? I'm not quite sure. But if they did, I wouldn't condemn/criticize it, *if* those animals are non-human. Humans, on the other hand, even if they're starving, are able to carefully negotiate concepts such as, "Which of us would be the more appropriate choice of who should survive in this situation?" Now that doesn't rule out cases where one human is acting completely unreasonable and hence the other human feels compelled to act defensively. Maybe both/all of the humans in the situation have gone stark raving mad, which would certainly excuse extreme behavior. But any human who *can* carefully consider his/her actions: should.
  • Re: killing to eat ... guilty as charged, and I'm in the wrong as a result, just to be 100% clear. I'm a human. I should know better and I do know better. I admit that a big juicy steak can be reeeally tasty, but I'm still a human, with that level of thought capacity, and the ability to control myself at least enough to be a vegetarian. Now if I'm starving, and killing some animal is the only way I'll survive, then that's a complicated choice. Perhaps it depends on who's depending on *my* survival and what my death would cost them? and, if starvation has driven me quite out of mind, then I guess I could automatically excuse myself.
  • Re: harming or killing to claim territory ... nuances aside, I can't picture this being an okay thing for humans to do. More than territory would have to be at stake, at the very least.
  • Re: violent rape ... I'm not certain of how many animals (or species of animal) would do this. Some? Maybe. I just don't know. (If they did, I'm sure I'd excuse the behavior if the animal was non-human.)
  • Re: stealing to survive ... I've already admitted I might *do* it under sufficient duress, but I'm less certain of whether I'd excuse that behavior in myself. If I was out of my right mind? Sure, then it'd be excusable. If someone else *needed* me to survive and depending on what my death would cost them? That would potentially excuse me -- perhaps even *obligate* me to do that stealing. Stealing to save someone else's life? That would probably be okay, more likely obligatory in fact. But if my personal survival were the only thing at stake, then I'm totally stumped about whether the stealing would be okay. Now I know that some animals do steal to survive, and I easily excuse that (if they're non-human animals).
  • Incidentally, I'd excuse the same range of actions in a "sufficiently" retarded human that I'd excuse in a non-human animal. So, virtually anything would be excusable if I thought that the particular human's level of retardation exceeded the "obviousness of the crime."
  • And here's something humans do that no other animal would do: deliberately torture each other. And, only a human would deliberately torture another animal. Now, a mouse being "played with" by a cat must be in a state of torment. But, the cat's *sole intention* is to practice its hunting skills. It doesn't even know that the mouse is suffering.
  • Re: confession to psychopathy ... I skipped this item but not intentionally and I'd like to cover it. Simply put, if someone "admits they're a psychopath," that actually doesn't prove they're a psychopath, any more than it proves someone committed a murder if they confess to the crime. There has to be some kind of hard evidence to back up the confession, otherwise it's just a claim that might or might not be true. Now why would someone "admit to being a psychopath" if in reality they *weren't* a psychopath? Don't know how compelling of examples I could think of, but hey, if you consider Law & Order to be a credible TV show (fictional but I hear they get their ideas from real cases), how about those convincing scenes where someone confesses to a murder they didn't actually commit? typically to protect the real murderer. Point being, it's conceivable that someone might falsely (mistakenly?) confess to something *really* damning.
[continued below]
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  #154  
Old 11-09-2013, 08:48 AM
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[continued from above]

Well, so much for the easy stuff.

Now, I have made requests of you, and while not withdrawing those requests per se, I do think I owe you an apology for the negative way I presented them. That is, instead of giving you due credit for your tapestry of exceptional virtues, I hastened straight to what I saw as faults and started criticizing you. A common response to that would be for the censured party to feel shocked, hurt, abused, betrayed, and as a result, to lash out in angry defense, curl up into a silent ball, or flee the scene in terror. I assume you felt the feelings that screamed out to you to fight back, shield yourself, or take flight. But in defiance of all that, you let down your guard, opened up, and graciously apologized. Says a lot for you, whereas all it says for me is that I got "lucky" that day.

You have important messages to convey to the world. Messages about self-love, about lightening up where certain body parts are concerned, about freeing ourselves from shame, especially bodily shame, freeing ourselves and each other from the bondage of excessive clothing usage, centering ourselves on objective logic, recognizing the subjective nature of the words "sane" and "normal," opening up our minds to what we have in common with our non-human animal friends, and even adopting a better, cleaner approach to personal hygiene. Those messages spring easily to my mind by now, and I am betting that they're only the tip of the iceberg.

I'd like to see you have more success in getting the messages to the people who need them the most, the people who are the most likely to hear them, take them to heart, perhaps even implement them in their personal lives. If new and enlightened concepts can't take hold in a forum as open-minded as Polyamory.com, then I fear for our world and where it's heading. Not that I think we're doomed, just that I'd hate it to take 10? 100? times longer than it should have to for us to see societies everywhere take on a fresh, fulfilling change in how they do things, treat people, and solve problems.

In that spirit, I want to reiterate the scene of Jesus hanging out and supping with thieves, prostitutes, and low-lifes. Somehow I doubt he was sitting there trying to lecture them about how tragic their life choices were, and how much happier they'd be if they'd just listen to him and follow his advice. Instead, I fondly believe that he expressed sincere love, honor, and acceptance for them just as they were. His goal was to teach by example, rather than by lecture. If he lectured the Pharisees, it's probably because he didn't have much hope for them. The changes for the better that Jesus envisioned for the world were, in his mind, in the hands of the dregs of society. He saw good in people where no one else would see it, and by seeing the good, he naturally drew that good out into the warm light of day.

Jesus, then, being the ultimate teacher, sought as well to set the example for the great teachers that would follow throughout history. "Want to transform someone's life?" he might say. "Do it by expressing your love, admiration, and acceptance for that person just the way they are. People naturally reciprocate positive energy. They will want to learn your teachings if they trust you. Earn that trust by showing them that they can depend on you to truly love them unconditionally."

So I urge any/all who faithfully get this far in this thread: Spread enlightenment by spreading love. Don't focus on people's faults. "You're doing this wrong. You're causing damage. Your country is crude and arrogant. Your actions are illogical." Instead, look like hell for any little thing that people are doing right, and make that the cornerstone of your message. Encourage people to do better by making them feel encouraged -- not by making them feel dumb, worthless, or spineless. Point out their strengths. Celebrate their strengths. In due time, you'll find that they'll come to you for wisdom and counsel.

And now the hardest challenge: patience. Societal change is no overnight accomplishment. Even changing just one person can take that person's whole life. I'd love to see the world discard its worst vices before I die, but if I really want to be part of the solution, then I need to learn how to love the world just the way it is. I need to learn how to appreciate and be happy about the good things in the world, not be angry, depressed, or dragged-down all the time over the many bad things in the world. If the world is making a little progress, just the slightest bit of progress, in the right direction, even if it's progress on a single solitary issue: I need to learn how to sincerely rejoice in that progress, and interpret it as hope for the future.

So whatever and whenever you post, spread as much positive energy into people's hearts as you can. Don't weigh them down with thoughts of how terrible they're doing. Instead, give them wings to fly, and give them your blessing to fly wherever they wish, explore whatever they want, and return if and whenever they'd like to hear more of what you have to say. You really won't see much change in your lifetime, the odds of that are one in a million. So play the smart odds: the odds that people will learn a little (a wee teeny little) at a time, and one or two here or there will actually try something really brave at some point.

Quote:
"And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!"
-- Doctrine and Covenants 18:15
In a word, don't despair if you feel like your message isn't reaching anyone. It could reach one person, and you might not even know about it, and yet that alone would make all your efforts worth it.

So, let your mission be lighted as a mission of faith, hope, and love. Try not to let anyone (not your friends, not yourself, not your enemies) beguile you into trying to execute it as a mission of fear, despair, or frustration. Be glad that you have a level of consciousness few will ever attain. Be grateful for the chance to share awesome ideas with a sleeping world. Be gentle and awaken people with a touch and a whisper. There's time. I know it doesn't seem like it, but in my dreams, happier generations are in our species' future. We can have some small effect on how soon that may be, and the best part is, the teacher always learns the most from the lessons he/she teaches.

You know how they say the first step in any crisis situation is, "Don't panic?" I believe that the opposite of panic is optimism. The problems that plague our world: we (with the help of our great-great-great-great-grandkids) will solve them. The human race will not die. I'll never give up on that optimism. And someday, the human race will learn what it truly is to live.

And now ... here's Kevin's sermon:

I hope that someday we'll be able to laugh about much of this. When things get heavy and ominous, I miss the wisecracks my old friends and siblings used to (sometimes still do) lob into the fray. For me it's like a shot in the arm, and sometimes it even makes it easier for me to relax my cemented views: those injections of the absurd. In my world, I call that a *real* reality check.
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  #155  
Old 11-09-2013, 09:17 AM
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As a personal favor to me, would you be willing to go easy on YouAreHere? I don't think she meant anything serious or insulting by the "hand-shaking remark;" she was sincerely just trying to lighten things up in the midst of an increasingly heated topic.

I think we can all agree that once one's hands are washed with soap and water (dried too would be nice), then it's perfectly safe to shake that person's hand (right or left). The only exception would be if they had been handling some kind of radioactive material or something.

I don't think YouAreHere was propogating any kind of stereotype; if anything maybe she was making fun of the existence of a stereotype. I definitely don't think she was making fun of you. Not how she meant it.

I know I am using my own interpretation here and Lord knows I've been wrong/mistaken many-a times in my life. But I'd feel comfortable making a rich bet on the probably that YouAreHere's whole post consisted entirely of horsing around and having fun. Even if you feel her joke was in bad taste, please cut her some slack and rest assured she didn't mean to give you a bad time.
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Old 11-09-2013, 01:55 PM
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Oh, my... I go watch some DVR'ed TV, go to bed, and here we are in the morning!

Thanks, Kevin. I wasn't upset by CW's reaction. More confused by the vitriol over the whole hand-shaking "stereotype". I realize you never know how clean someone is, and I'm honestly not someone who's all that fussy about touching dirty things (although the cat puke is sometimes a bit much). I do, however, think it goes a bit far to smell someone's hands - I'm assuming, CW, you meant from a distance. If I could smell filthy hands, I'd probably not want to shake hands either, although I know I'd wash my hands at some point in the near future if I did.

I have a coworker who, as a form of habit, sticks his hands (backwards, so the palms are facing outward) down his pants in the back while he's talking. He's the only one I really prefer to not have to use anything out of his office.

Taking pieces of your posts in reverse order (coz that's how I can refer to them in this window):

Re. Jesus being with the masses rather than preaching down to them: This is one of the BIG things that caused me to re-examine my own religion. Most branches of Christianity seem to have become modern-day Pharisees again, right down to ignoring the poor people around them in favor of lecturing those who don't follow the rules to a 'T'. I'd rather follow Jesus' example than follow what gets spewed out by many organized religions at this point. It's ironic that this means I'm not a traditional "Christian".

Re. societal change: I'd certainly love to see studies on this, with dates and charts and what-not, but it seems that societal change seems to come about once a generation gets comfortable with something and comes of age to make policy. Folks who grew up where gay couples were out and were asserting themselves as "okay, dammit" are now old enough to make policy and there you go. Unsubstantiated observation with no data behind it, but that's how it seems to me.

Re. "Don't Panic!": Make sure you have your towel with you at all times.

Re. your funniness, I get it - I'm a sarcast, a wiseass, and someone who has a habit of trying to deflect difficult emotions with laughter (up to a point). I've had to backpedal from that a couple times in my life, but luckily (and happily) very few. You keep being you.

Re. violent rape among animals: ducks. Honestly, just Google "duck rape" - the females have actually evolved mechanisms to thwart this.

Re. pooping: I'm done on this topic. No worries.
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Me: Mono. Divorced, two kids (DanceGirl, 13; and PokéGirl, 11), two cats, one house, many projects.
Chops: My partner. Poly. In relationships with me, Xena, and Noa.
Xena: Poly. In relationships with Chops and Noa, and dating others.
Noa: Married, Poly. In relationships with Chops and Xena (individually).

Blog thread: A Mono's Journey Into Poly-Land (or, "Aw hell, there's no road map?!")
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  #157  
Old 11-09-2013, 08:56 PM
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Kevin, Thank you for those wonderful words of love!~ ^_^ Love you dude!~ I am going to answer your points now, I don't mean for any of my words to be offensive or angry sounding, so please try to understand that if they do.~

I don't know what channels you've been watching, but all the 'documentary' channels I have seen and from I've read about online have given me information about just how all kinds of non-Human creatures do things that are constantly banned in many Human societies like:

Male Orangutans primarily from Human gathered research either sit around and wait for the females to come to them in which case the males often develop "enlarged cheeks on their faces" as a result of this behavior supposedly OR the Male Orangutans will travel around and rape any females they come across,

many male creatures will kill infants to make the female go into heat so she will mate with them to produce "their" children, Polar Bears "eat" the infant Polar Bears to force the female to bear "his" children,

some Male Dolphins will some times surround a female Dolphin and starve her until she agrees to mate with them, Bottlenose Dolphins will rape and torture other kinds of Dolphins if put in the same tank with them, Dolphins are actually no different from Sharks only the Sharks "look" more "vicious" as they both eat the same things,

Shamu? a Killer Whale "Killer Whale" it's in the name these creatures "kill" "whales" they are like giant sharks they have been described as the "wolves of the whale world" so don't expect them to be all cuddly in the wild or even at Sea World as it HAS happened at least once or twice,

just because some thing may "look" cute doesn't mean it isn't capable of doing things that if it was a Human doing them that "Human" would be considered "an abomination upon Humanity and this world".~

The thing is we don't really know any thing at all about how the lives of other species outside of our own work in accordance with that species' own perspective on it.~

We don't know if other species actually practice or even comprehend 'morality' as those in the Human species seem to do, or if they do but they decided to 'discard it' since it's subjectivity is far too unreliable to use as a way of thinking.~

We have no idea about the way that other species 'think' or how their lives 'work' in 'their' point of view and so we only guess at the best what is really going on with them.~

This does not make us 'higher' than them in any sort of 'non-subjective' way, this does not 'make their behavior justifiable in a non-subjective' way, and this does not 'make us any kind of 'experts' or 'professionals' on them in a way that is not subjective or relative to our own species'.~

The point is we truly don't know and any claim made otherwise of one by our own species is simply pure arrogance, narcissism, ignorance, and foolishness.~
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Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~


Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-09-2013 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 11-09-2013, 09:06 PM
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I didn't mean any thing as serious as it sounded towards YouAreHere specifically, I'm just very conscious about the spreading of illogical practices like those I've seen practiced in other countries like India where they clearly use soap and water with their hand instead of toilet paper they then clean both their hands thoroughly yet they still insist on this practice of 'left hand is for certain things like your butt and right hand is for certain things like eating', to me: if you're going to be that paranoid about hand hygiene then don't make any physical contact with their hands at all when meeting new people, simple.~ ^_^

I'm reminded of my love from a video game named Dragon Age: Origins by a beautiful wonderful woman named Morrigan, "I do not understand many Human customs.~ Such as when it comes to such a simple greeting why is there so much touching?!~ Why does this person want to touch my hand?~ I find it an offensive invasion of my personal space!~"
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-09-2013 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:25 AM
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Re (from YouAreHere):
Quote:
"Oh, my ... I go watch some DVR'ed TV, go to bed, and here we are in the morning!"
Sorry (bowing head sheepishly, probably with shame). You know, this kind of reminds me of the good old days at Poly Percs, when I used to uncontrollably write boringly long posts one after another. At least then, though, I spread 'em over more than one thread, and Ppercs gave me a seemingly limitless size for a single post (hence, no embarrassment from having to split one post into two to three posts). Plus I was convinced back then that I was actually helping quite a few individuals as well as the "community" as a whole. Now I'm a small person, in a site that could squash Ppercs like a bug, and my new talent seems to be choosing the wrong things to think and say, every time. Waaah, ya feel sorry for me now, don'tcha?

Dammit, I know it's a mixed package and that's life, some people send encouragement your way, while others seem like if they had a genie and three wishes, all three wishes would be "Make that asshole kdt26417 leave." So what I should be doing is taking all that in stride and reminding myself that I do have friends and that it's my friends that matter. But in the vain pursuit of perfection I've let my not-so-much-friends psyche me into trying harder and harder to talk my way out of a jam, resulting in posts that look at first glance like magnum opuses, but the closer I inspect them, the more fatal flaws I find. Ah, for the heart of Mozart instead of Beethoven. Mozart had zero self-doubts and wrote everything perfect and complete in its first draft; Beethoven was rumored to second-guess a single note, back and forth until he'd worn a hole through the paper. (Doubt not the rumor ... Wikipedia sez official erasers were invented as early as 1770.)

Anyhoo, I do humbly apologize for "gorging myself on your time;" what the heck I'll apologize to me too, cause my time be vaporizing like a mutha -- not very smart/responsible of me, is it? It's like I have this obsessive belief that I can "fix things" ... and the truth is, ya can't fix everything.

Re:
Quote:
"Thanks, Kevin. I wasn't upset by CW's reaction. More confused by the vitriol over the whole hand-shaking 'stereotype.'"
I was confused and concerned. CW later indicated that he didn't mean it as serious as it sounded, but maybe the moral is, stop and think about how you're gonna say something before you say it, lest others could become confused about where you're coming from emotionally.

Um, yeah, I'd definitely shy away from shaking a hand I could smell (unless it were the smell of motor oil or something).

Re:
Quote:
"I have a coworker who, as a form of habit, sticks his hands (backwards, so the palms are facing outward) down his pants in the back while he's talking. He's the only one I really prefer to not have to use anything out of his office."
Odd. If only the back pockets would do, eh?

Re:
Quote:
"Most branches of Christianity seem to have become modern-day Pharisees again, right down to ignoring the poor people around them in favor of lecturing those who don't follow the rules to a 'T.'"
I consider the LDS church (as a whole) to be pretty darn guilty of all that, given their anti-same-sex-marriage campaigns and purchase of a damn mall in Salt Lake City while they have faithful members around the world who are starving.

Re:
Quote:
"I'd rather follow Jesus' example than follow what gets spewed out by many organized religions at this point. It's ironic that this means I'm not a traditional 'Christian.'"
Seems to me that the definition of Christian is "following or a follower of Christ." Lots of churches claim to embody that path, but man I don't trust organized religion (and I don't think Christ does, either).

Re: generation-long gestation of societal changes ... largely true; exposure to something as a kid does seem to help one accept it better as an adult. Homosexuals are far from accepted as much as I'd like to see, but at least people are "fighting over it now" rather than just contentedly lounging in their traditional paradigms.

Re:
Quote:
"Re:
Quote:
'Don't Panic!'
Make sure you have your towel with you at all times."
That would be the second step in any crisis situation.

Re:
Quote:
"Re: your funniness ... I get it -- I'm a sarcast, a wiseass, and someone who has a habit of trying to deflect difficult emotions with laughter (up to a point). I've had to backpedal from that a couple times in my life, but luckily (and happily) very few. You keep being you. "
I appreciate your encouraging words ...

---

Re: the "duck article" ... interesting. Now for my questions about it (bound to emerge as this cat is at least curious enough to get into mischief).

Note 1: Many of these questions are really commenters' questions (FYI).

Note 2: Some of these questions may be unanswerable even by the smartest biologists currently available, so, take any question here as mere food for thought if you so desire.

Note 3: A few of these questions may seem somewhat rhetorical. Kevin hereby takes no responsibility for such defects.

Note 4: At least one question may be deplorably off-topic, but I ain't takin' responsibility for that one either (bwa-ha-ha-ha).

Question A: How does a female duck decide whether a particular male would make a suitable mate? They don't seriously inspect his wing length, feather quality ... or? do they? If it's about diversity in a mate, how does the female know that he "looks a lot different from her?" They don't have mirrors.

Question B: How common is rapist behavior in ducks and geese? (more common than human rape? less common?)

Question C: Is the inclination to rape an evolutionary advantage?

Question D: If it's not, then why does it evolve at all?

Question E: Are humans' simpler genitalia a sign that rape is better for humans than it is for ducks?

Question F: Can a "rape" be called "rape" only if the perpetrator (and victim?) have a bonafide awareness of what rape as we understand it is?

Question G: If it's not to be called "attempted rape," what's it to be called? extremely vigorous wooing?

Question H: You don't think a male duck would try to screw a female goose, do you?

Question I: When female mallards (for example) are willing, doesn't their complex plumbing impede their species' reproduction as a whole?

Question J: Can said mallards' plumbing "straighten out" so as to ease reproduction for welcome males?

Question K: Why haven't vaginal/cloacal teeth evolved?

Question L: Whereas female ducks and geese appear to be "screwed" vis-ŕ-vis male mating habits, male praying mantes and at least a few kinds of male spiders appear to be *even more screwed* vis-ŕ-vis female mating habits. So who's ahead in the "battle of the mating sexes" throughout the animal kingdom?

Question M: Is human diversity/adaptability (a likely trait since humans have migrated into nearly every environment the planet offers) some kind of sign of evolutionary "superiority?" (Hmmm ... or does that make cockroaches the superior species ...)

And finally:

Re (from Warren Jones on Tue Oct 06 00:10:04 BST 2009):
Quote:
"Okay humans, I know that all science has it's uses, but maybe we could put duck vaginas on the back burner while we deal with this whole mass extinction thing?"
LOLOL, OMG that's hilarious. "Life on Earth is about to be wiped out, and we're obsessing over ...?" Sigh, only humans could do that shizzle, right?
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-10-2013 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:26 AM
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Re: hands and touching ... sounds to me like we're all pretty much on the same page (with respect to hand hygiene), so I won't worry about that. And I've been laboring for awhile under the impression that "permission before touching" is something that probably matters quite a bit more to ColorsWolf than it does to kdt26417, however since I don't quite know what to do about that other than acknowledge that we each have our unique/individual perspectives about things, for now at least I guess I won't worry much about that either.

Re (from ColorsWolf):
Quote:
"I don't mean for any of my words to be offensive or angry sounding, so please try to understand that if they do."
Okay no offense, but while they didn't sound angry per se, they did strike me as being a little on the competitive side? Don't wanna compete, just wanna exchange ideas. Long as we can agree to that, then I'll just chalk up the impression I had to paranoia on my part. (Would still be much obliged if you could bring it down a notch, though.)

Re:
Quote:
"I don't know what channels you've been watching ..."
D'oh, ya got me, I don't keep up on the Discovery Channel (etc.) like I should. Too much Dexter, Law & Order, Sons of Anarchy, etc.

Re: orangutans and rape ... gotcha, some orangutans engage in rape. Didn't know that before but I'm not shocked to hear it. I kind of suspect that a few other ape species as well have rapists amongst them. Hah, what am I saying: Humans *are* a species of apes, and God knows we have human rapists. Anyway, I trust you understand what I mean generally speaking.

Re:
Quote:
"Many male creatures will kill infants to make the female go into heat so she will mate with them to produce *their* children ..."
I'd heard of that (in lions and other cats at least, didn't know polar bears did it).

Re:
Quote:
"Bottlenose dolphins will rape and torture other kinds of dolphins if put in the same tank with them ..."
Uh ... can I ask what this torture specifically consists of?

Re: dolphins, killer whales, etc. ... yes I know they're not nearly so "cuddly" as many people think they are.

Re:
Quote:
"The thing is we don't really know anything at all about how the lives of other species outside of our own work in accordance with that species' own perspective on it."
Alright, then I'll emend/expound a few of my statements from earlier posts. If a non-human animal can contemplate ethics in a manner similar to what humans can do, then (in my mind) I'll hold that animal similarly accountable for its actions. Which certainly means that I can't know for sure how accountable to hold this or that animal since I don't really know what it's thinking.

Re:
Quote:
"We don't know if other species actually practice or even comprehend 'morality' as those in the Human species seem to do, or if they do but they decided to 'discard it' since its subjectivity is far too unreliable to use as a way of thinking."
Which isn't so much a question of what non-human animals think/do in comparison to humans, it's more a question of whether ethics are worth bothering with since they're so subjective. Well, as far as that goes, I suppose we could argue all day about it. But I'd rather not. I personally feel that it's worth trying to do the right thing despite all the subjectivity; the effort in my opinion is worthwhile because on a large scale I believe it'll eventually lead to better overall behaviors in a given species. I take it that you'd beg to differ, but it seems to me that agreeing to disagree is the best we'll be able to do on this topic.

Do I think humans are "higher" than other animals? Nope. Perhaps I'd consider a species "higher" if it used a higher *percentage* (than other species) of whatever ethical understanding it has. Humans certainly have far to go to live up to their potential in that area.

Re:
Quote:
"The point is we truly don't know and any claim made otherwise of one by our own species is simply pure arrogance, narcissism, ignorance, and foolishness."
Well then I won't make that claim. I'll simply qualify my various opinions as the best guess I can come with given whatever little information I have.

Please note that I'm not trying to prove there's anything wrong with you or your way of thinking, any more than I'm trying to prove there's nothing infallible about me or my way of thinking. I'll admit to having attempted to make my position understandable, but that's all I was trying to do. I'll agree to try to understand your position if you'll agree to try to understand mine (and neither of us has to agree to be convinced of each other's positions; understanding is just getting where someone's coming from, not the same thing as being convinced by their conclusions).

Please don't put me in a position where I'll either have to agree with your position/conclusions or else get caught up in a perpetual competition/argument about it. That would be unnecessary and might even drive me off (without notice ahead of time).

On the other hand, if you feel you've had enough of me already, just say the word and I'll willingly retreat without grudge or recrimination. (I still reserve the right to converse with other members on any unlocked thread, though.)

On the "third hand," given the edit at the start of your post, can I assume that we still have a peace treaty in effect? I hope so.
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