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  #101  
Old 11-01-2013, 06:53 AM
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Yeah, I agree, male erection tends to (rightly) be associated with sexual arousal a lot more than nipple erection does. (Now what "rules about nudity" should therefore apply is a subject of hot debate ...)
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  #102  
Old 11-01-2013, 01:51 PM
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It's two pages ago, so scrolling and quoting is too haaaaaaaaaard, BUT...

Kevin, I think you posed an interesting question as to why people hide pieces of themselves from others.

I am an extrovert. I enjoy being around people, period. However, with that comes the knowledge that some of these people, while fun to talk with about <x> or <y>, don't really need to know certain pieces of myself. It's sort of a gatekeeping mechanism, where the people closest to me get "those parts" and those who aren't, well... don't.

Not that people don't move in and out of that "zone" (is there a friendzone and a closefriendzone? ), but that's kind of the way I think about it. I just don't talk "deep" with some people, and really wouldn't want to. It's not about self-preservation, or fear, or shame. It's just more about the type of friendship, I suppose.

Not sure if that makes any sense to anyone but me, but I'm on a bit of a leftover candy rush, so there ya go.
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  #103  
Old 11-01-2013, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Re: issues on graphic display ... I was thinking more along the lines of, "I have anger issues, here let me show you," and you punch the other person out. "Inappropriate display." It's better if you just explain it to them, describe it to them, or whatever.

If clothing-training-by-shame was not the approach used when you were growing up, are there people you know who did get that kind of warped training? I got the impression you felt this was a widespread problem that was happening in a lot of homes, am I reading that wrong?

Your parents sound cool and open-minded from your description; I'm envious.

Re:


Do I have permission? Kidding. Sure, I'll go for your internet hug. May it stick for many years to come.

Re: Halloween ... sooo depressing. No kids come to our door. Well, maybe when we move to Seattle-ish that'll change.

---

@ london ... thanks for your compilation of internet no-no's (of the ... "over-emphasis" kind). From what I've seen in my forum experiences, it's a pet peeve of quite a few regular users out there.
No my parents still told us to keep our clothes on but they didn't really go out of their way to make us feel bad about being without clothing and if they did it never really stuck with me: if any thing didn't feel 'right' to me throughout my whole life it kind of never really 'stuck' to me, that's just the kind of person I've always been I think.~

It was more like things that didn't feel 'right' to me kind of just 'clung' if they could onto me, so from my perspective it didn't take that long: only a couple of years, to 'un-learn' these things.~

I'm still working on completely getting rid of my 'crowd shame' but it's taking longer but still making good progress since I don't often 'go out' as other people do.~

Halloween isn't just about candy silly: it's about joy and having fun just like any other holiday!~ ^_^

Thanks for the internet hug *huggles*!~ ^_^ You're so sweet!~
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  #104  
Old 11-01-2013, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by london View Post
The male erection vs nipple erection thing was also noteworthy. But I feel that as nipples become erect.due to cold as well as sexual arousal. And not everybody has hard nipples when sexual aroused, its different to male erections. I mean sure, he might need to pee but an erection pretty much means sexual arousal.
I completely disagree.~

The Human Male Penis is a compilation of flesh and muscles in a specific region that functions for many purposes.~

Blood flows through it just like any other part of the body.~

I don't know if you are a male or female or some thing else london, but if you are a male I'm surprised you've never experienced the many occurrences where the penis becomes semi or fully erect for reasons other than sexual activities.~

My own penis has become semi to fully erect more times than I remember right now throughout my whole life.~

Many times I had to urinate and I may or may not have been holding it for awhile as is somewhat easier I think for males since we also have a prostate that from my understanding helps us with this unlike females.~

Many times my mind was on some thing completely different than sexual things and low and behold there it was and I didn't have to urinate at the time either.~

The penis is used for many things such as: sexual activities, urination, and even sensory perception (a natural unbutchered penis has more than 10,000 nerve endings in the foreskin alone).~

According to science and biological study of the Human Male Penis it was never meant to be an "outside" organ, it was meant to be an "inside" organ protected from the elements just like the Human Female Vagina: the foreskin is meant to function as a "protective covering" for the rest of the penis: keeping it "moist" and "lubricated" preventing it from "drying out" and especially protecting the sensitive "penis glands around the head".~

The ritualistic practice of butchering the Human Male Infant's Penis when they are helpless has no solid basis in scientific reality as the studies that have been cited for "hygienic" reasons were poorly conducted uncontrolled experiments.~

As a result, many Humans Males subjected to this religious practice against their will have grown up never knowing the full extent of the functions of their penis if it was naturally allowed to grow.~ They, I among them, have grown up with a dulled sense of sensory perception in their penises as a result of slicing the foreskin off and their penises' sensory perception is even further dulled from over exposure to the elements including rubbing constantly against the fabric of clothing since the penis is left exposed at all times from lack of natural foreskin.~

Despite this, the penis continues to be highly sensory perceptive and any number of sensory stimuli, not exclusive to sexual activities, may generate a response from the penis.~

Just because sex is the most popular thing in this country of the U.S.A. doesn't make the parts of ourselves that takes part in sex biologically function exclusively for that purpose.~

Here's some links you might find interesting:

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...iansguide.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreskin
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  #105  
Old 11-01-2013, 11:16 PM
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I do have to laugh and agree that some days, an erection just means it's morning.

(Not that one can't take advantage of the opportunity, of course... )
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  #106  
Old 11-02-2013, 03:43 AM
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Re: erections sans any known sexual stimulation ... does it happen? It does (and I can safely say that as a male with the equipment to prove it). Oookay, in case it's confession time, I'll speculate that my most common erections happen when I'm asleep as a sort of mechanism to stave off having to urinate. That way I can sleep more, and get up for pit stops less (hopefully/in theory). Sort of like "hibernation for the bladder."

Plus I used to be a lot younger (it's true), and when I was, well for instance it was a rather embarrassing inconvenience for me as a teen in school to often get an erection for no conceivable reason. Just my equipment's way of getting practice/exercise?

And sure, back in those days, the "dreaded" morning erection was a normal occurrence, as were "wet dreams" that had no "brain-conjured wet dream content" ... my apologies if that was way too much information.

I basically know nothing about whatever mechanisms females have for "holding it in." I do know (interesting fact), that all babies start out in the womb as, well, girls. The "kids with the testosterone" have genitalia that morph during the pregnancy intil they have out-and-out male equipment.

So does the penis have multiple functions? Sure. Not as many as a jet fighter, but certainly enough to make it more than just a sexual organ.

Re:
Quote:
"Just because sex is the most popular thing in this country of the U.S.A. doesn't make the parts of ourselves that takes part in sex biologically function exclusively for that purpose."
I think I get that? Qualifier: Would a study be useful to find out how popular sex is in other countries? Sex is, after all, pretty popular throughout the animal kingdom. Something about reproduction? Breathing, drinking, eating, and finding shelter (elements of immediate survival) do trump sex (the element of long-term species survival) though.

As an American, I just find it impossible to imagine how anything could be better than sex. Kidding ...?

Re: circumcision ... oh boy, here I go, committing heresy by not calling circumcision child abuse and lots of other bad things. I've done some reading on the subject both pro and con, and I guess I'm technically neutral on the subject. As per Wikipedia, scientists are still speculating about what the foreskin does for us. Not saying those scientists are talking out of their asses, just saying there's a lot of unknowns about that part of the body.

Personal note (I know you'll all be looking forward to this): I seem to be "getting my foreskin back" in my "relatively old age," and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Sometimes when I'm drying off out of the shower, I observe that, "Oh look, the turtle is retreating back into its shell. What's it so timid about? embarrassed about being spotted in the mirror?" "I must hide," says the turtle. "If I cannot see you, then you cannot see me. I am hidden." I don't think I'm ashamed of it, but it seems a little silly (to me)? Certainly isn't what I'm used to seeing. (Dear readers: I beg you to not be offended by my levity. It's how I cope with talking about my privates. Easy for some people to do, not so easy for me to do.)

[continued below]
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  #107  
Old 11-02-2013, 03:43 AM
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[continued from above]

Now, backtracking a couple of posts (hubboy is this getting long):

@ YouAreHere ... most of us agree that we don't share *everything* with *everyone,* yes? The question, then, that (to my mind) follows, is: Does that principle also apply to physical exposure (i.e. nudity)? If not: why not? What's the difference? Like you said, the keeping of "private psychological zones" isn't about self-preservation, fear, or shame. If that's true, then how is it that "the rules change" when talking about the physical body (and exposing it)?

@ ColorsWolf ...
Quote:
"Halloween isn't just about candy silly: It's about joy and having fun just like any other holiday!"
Heh ... yeah, except I'm pretty much done with fun/joy as applies to all the holidays (although I have no objection to any fun/joy others may derive from them). If it's any consolation, Halloween was "the last one to go," on my "holiday list." What could be better than a holiday to celebrate the imagination (and that's what Halloween essentially is, in my mind). Happy memories of spook allies (etc.) abound in my memory banks. But yeah, not the "yay" type anymore, not me. I just sit at my PC (and TV), glean some mild entertainment out of it here and there, and hope someday to "catch up on everything" (which of course'll never happen). Nice to see the kids enjoying the holidays at least, though.

Re: crowd shame ... I must ask: You mean fear of being in crowds in general, right, not necessarily fear of being in crowds unclothed? I have a history of fearing crowds in general, but maybe not so much now as in the old days.

Oookay, now the tough questions. Regarding parents, children, shame, and nudity. Do some parents teach their kids to clothe themselves via verbally shaming them? I wouldn't doubt it. But let's look at a few of the other examples. It seemed to me that you indicated that your parents didn't try to "shame" you into clothing yourself. Yet somehow, you emerged into adulthood with the understanding that it is generally "prudent" to clothe oneself when out amongst the general public. So, isn't it fair to say that your parents did somehow train you to clothe yourself in public, even if they did it without the shaming techniques that we've been discussing?

Taking the notion even further, I think that my own parents were probably less tolerant/open-minded than yours were. Yet, even they did not teach me to clothe myself by using any shaming techniques -- unless they snuck that quite into my subconscious without me noticing. I just lived by something of a "military law" as a kid. The parents were the superior officers, and what they ordered you to do, you did. There was never any questioning of "why" you were obeying these orders; you simply knew you had to do it. So, by my parents' approach, they didn't need to shame me into clothing myself; they just made it clear that I darn well better do it because they said so. From there, it became a habit and, well, a lot of being clothing derives from habit (and the comfortableness of adhering to habit), in my perspective.

To be fair, my mom (and dad to an extent) did use shaming techniques to push me into quite a few other kinds of "socially acceptable behavior." But clothing, for some odd reason, never relied on those techniques. Force and authority were the "clothing techniques" my parents chose. Why shame in some areas, but force in other areas? Good freaking question. Possibly because my parents had more confidence that they could enforce some things, than that they could enforce other things. If their "enforcement confidence" was low in some area for some reason, then that's when they probably resorted to shaming as an "enhancement" to the "authority technique."

But what I'm really getting at, is that there's at least two anecdotal examples of "clothing training" done without shaming (verbal or otherwise). I mean, my mom's personal example certainly didn't exhibit any kind of shame. She displayed her nudity in front of her kids with a pretty darn convincing show of comfortableness and confidence. Again, one standard for her, another for the kids; the kids were under strict orders to stay clothed, even if she wasn't. Warped? Yes. A shaming technique? Not so much so, I don't think. More of an authority technique.

So, when you speak of parents who train their kids to clothe themselves by telling said kids that "they're disgusting filthy creatures who should feel bad for even existing" ... I feel like Wikipedia when it says, "citation needed." Do you know of specific cases where parents used that technique with their kids? Can you cite any studies or articles you're familiar with that would indicate that this kind of training is a widespread problem (at least in American households)? Whatever this paragraph seems like, it is not an attempt to "discredit" you. It is an attempt to understand how you came to be as concerned about this problem as your posts have seemed to me to indicate. Feel free to correct me (politely) if I've misinterpreted your posts or intent in any way.

Now if your point is that "shaming techniques in general" are a widespread problem, I'm more inclined to just take you at your word because I've experienced that myself.

Well, then, where does all this "nudity shame" come from if not from our parents? I'm not sure, but I suspect that InfinitePossibility is onto something with the video she referenced in her October 30 post. In other words, I'll bet the biggest culprit in causing "nudity shame" is the media. Advertisers, movie-makers, even news stations bombard us with images of "perfect physiques." As a result, we all start to get real self-conscious about how we look, especially when exposed to our own conditioned scrutiny in the mirror. So, shame on Hollywood, so to speak.

Is religion to blame for nudity shame? probably so, to some hard-to-quantify extent. After all, most churches will teach us that it's "sinful" to walk around naked. So I guess Hollywood doesn't get the sole blame. And as I said, some parents are probably guilty of participating in that brand of conditioning as well -- I just have no idea how many parents, what the numbers or percentages are. It seems equally plausable to me to visualize parents who tell their kids, "Your naked body is a wonderful thing, but the world just isn't ready to see that yet, and so, that's why you should usually keep yourself clothed." As is visualizing the (probably more typical) parents who say, "Doggone it, put your pants on! cause I said so!"

In case I'm not in trouble yet, I'll even risk suggesting that there are fine/subtle differences between shame, modesty, and dignity. Shame being the worst, modesty being the tendency to "respect the public's wishes," and dignity being the tendency to "comport oneself in a way that doesn't display, shall we say, 'wild animal' protocols?"

Right, that's probably me playing enough of the devil's advocate for now. Again, not looking to defeat, discredit, or anything like that; instead, the goal here (on my part) is to nudge people into thinking outside whatever box they may be used to. Anything I've said, asked, whatever, is open to scrutiny, argument, what have you, so long as, as always, we pride ourselves on conducting the discussion in a considerate, civilized way. I mean I myself don't have the answers to any of the questions I'm asking, nor do I by any means "know" anything I've "asserted." I could so easily be wrong about so many things. Just encouraging the continuation of an interesting dialog, I hope.

Respects/regards,
Kevin T.
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  #108  
Old 11-02-2013, 04:21 PM
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Kevin, "Re: crowd shame ... I must ask: You mean fear of being in crowds in general, right, not necessarily fear of being in crowds unclothed? I have a history of fearing crowds in general, but maybe not so much now as in the old days."

Surprisingly, none of those you listed.~

When I said, "Crowd Shame".~ I meant the feeling of getting embarrassed to do things in front of a large group of people, I still have that initial first apprehension before I do it.~ After I start doing it that first initial apprehension usually goes away gradually.~


Kevin, "It seemed to me that you indicated that your parents didn't try to "shame" you into clothing yourself."

No, I tried to make it clear that they did try, but half-heatedly with not much effort put into it.~ Like they told us it wasn't "right" to be without clothing in certain circumstances or other such nonsense, but they didn't actually tell us traumatizing things to make us hate ourselves.~


Kevin, "Taking the notion even further, I think that my own parents were probably less tolerant/open-minded than yours were. Yet, even they did not teach me to clothe myself by using any shaming techniques -- unless they snuck that quite into my subconscious without me noticing. I just lived by something of a "military law" as a kid. The parents were the superior officers, and what they ordered you to do, you did. There was never any questioning of "why" you were obeying these orders; you simply knew you had to do it. So, by my parents' approach, they didn't need to shame me into clothing myself; they just made it clear that I darn well better do it because they said so. From there, it became a habit and, well, a lot of being clothing derives from habit (and the comfortableness of adhering to habit), in my perspective."

From a certain age I don't remember, I started to realize no one "makes" me do any thing, I don't "obey" any one, I don't take "orders" I take "requests", regardless of how others see it or what words are used in the process: from

my own understanding and perspective I realized that no matter what we do we are responsible for all of our actions, these is no "have to", there is no "no choice", no matter what: you are choosing to do some thing, how ever you want to justify it

to yourself is up to you but this does not change the truth that you still "chose" to do it.~

We may not have complete control over some of the circumstances that we find ourselves in, but we still choose how to react to these circumstances.~


Kevin, "So, when you speak of parents who train their kids to clothe themselves by telling said kids that "they're disgusting filthy creatures who should feel bad for even existing" ... I feel like Wikipedia when it says, "citation needed." Do you know of specific cases where parents used that technique with their kids? Can you cite any studies or articles you're familiar with that would indicate that this kind of training is a widespread problem (at least in American households)? Whatever this paragraph seems like, it is not an attempt to "discredit" you. It is an attempt to understand how you came to be as concerned about this problem as your posts have seemed to me to indicate. Feel free to correct me (politely) if I've misinterpreted your posts or intent in any way."

I don't know any one that I remember at this moment that had that literally told to them growing up, but I do know plenty of people and I notice this seems to be the prevailing attitude at least in this country of the U.S.A. from my observations, learning, and experiences of every thing from the media to talking to people in-person.~


Kevin, "Well, then, where does all this "nudity shame" come from if not from our parents? I'm not sure, but I suspect that InfinitePossibility is onto something with the video she referenced in her October 30 post. In other words, I'll bet the biggest culprit in causing "nudity shame" is the media. Advertisers, movie-makers, even news stations bombard us with images of "perfect physiques." As a result, we all start to get real self-conscious about how we look, especially when exposed to our own conditioned scrutiny in the mirror. So, shame on Hollywood, so to speak."

No, no "shame on any body".~ Shame is like hate: it is a self-feeding cycle.~ That is the problem, we need to stop feeding into shame if we want to be free of it.~


Kevin, "Is religion to blame for nudity shame? probably so, to some hard-to-quantify extent. After all, most churches will teach us that it's "sinful" to walk around naked. So I guess Hollywood doesn't get the sole blame. And as I said, some parents are probably guilty of participating in that brand of conditioning as well -- I just have no idea how many parents, what the numbers or percentages are. "

The main reason seems to be control for "shaming people".~ Most if not all religions tend to be about control: "Follow our rules or you will not be happy after you die." and Humanity in general seems to have an addiction to the power of control.~


Kevin, "It seems equally plauseble to me to visualize parents who tell their kids, "Your naked body is a wonderful thing, but the world just isn't ready to see that yet, and so, that's why you should usually keep yourself clothed." As is visualizing the (probably more typical) parents who say, "Doggone it, put your pants on! cause I said so!""

The first parents mentioned are just as guilty of inflicting harmful unhealthy concepts upon their children as the last parents mentioned here.~ Although the last parents mentioned inflict it much more severely, both are continuing the cycle of "shame".~


Kevin, "In case I'm not in trouble yet, I'll even risk suggesting that there are fine/subtle differences between shame, modesty, and dignity. Shame being the worst, modesty being the tendency to "respect the public's wishes," and dignity being the tendency to "comport oneself in a way that doesn't display, shall we say, 'wild animal' protocols?""

It's all utter nonsense and a waste of time to me: why should I worry about every little thought of every person about me and shape my life to the almost impossible feat of pleasing every one, what is that going to do for me, does my happiness even matter, aren't there so many better things I can do with my life and time that would actually make "me" happy?~

Yes there is respect for others, but I warn you to be careful that "respect" does not become "servitude".~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-02-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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  #109  
Old 11-02-2013, 10:10 PM
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Wow, do you guys ever get off the couch and off your laptops? I spend a lot of time online, but Jesus on a cracker.



I've skimmed most posts here and saw Kevin semi-quote me.

Speaking from the view of a lactation specialist, no, I was no shocked by the woman who felt weird breastfeeding. We do not live in a breastfeeding friendly culture and have not since about the 1930s. People can have all kinds of reasons or excuses not to breastfeed.

Also, Kevin, you semi-quoted me as saying some Middle Eastern women do not know whether it's OK to breastfeed in public or not. I am not an expert on expectations about breastfeeding in the Middle East. There are many cultures in the Middle East, and then other cultures that are Muslim but not Middle Eastern. I expect things vary by country, and things are different in traditional villages as opposed to big cities.
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Old 11-03-2013, 02:14 AM
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Re:
Quote:
"Wow, do you guys ever get off the couch and off your laptops? I spend a lot of time online, but Jesus on a cracker."
Gods, it seems like I used to get off my "couch/laptop." This thread has really been tempting me to pour out my time and attention. I swear I used to be able to keep up with everything, now I'm like, "D'oh, fell short again" every day. Guess it's been a stressful but mesmerizing ride?

Re:
Quote:
"We do not live in a breastfeeding friendly culture and have not since about the 1930s."
Huh ... Odd ... Do we have any info on something that may have happened in the 30's to change people's outlooks? the invention of baby formula perhaps, or something like that?

Re:
Quote:
"Also, Kevin, you semi-quoted me as saying some Middle Eastern women do not know whether it's okay to breastfeed in public or not."
Well just to be clear, I only meant that as a description of my own perception. Didn't mean to imply that such was necessarily your view as well.

Re:
Quote:
"There are many cultures in the Middle East, and then other cultures that are Muslim but not Middle Eastern. I expect things vary by country, and things are different in traditional villages as opposed to big cities."
Probably true.

Re (from ColorsWolf):
Quote:
"I meant the feeling of getting embarrassed to do things in front of a large group of people, I still have that initial first apprehension before I do it."
Sounds a little like something akin to stage fright? (If I'm still missing the target, please attempt to continue to clarify and I believe I'll get it eventually.)

Oh, your parents did "shame you a little" about nudity, just not to an "extreme" extent. Sorry, I misunderstood on that point.

Re:
Quote:
"No matter what we do we are responsible for all of our actions, these is no 'have to,' there is no 'no choice,' no matter what: you are choosing to do some thing, how ever you want to justify it to yourself is up to you but this does not change the truth that you still 'chose' to do it."
I had a friend in school who used to often say that we always "create our own reality." Would that kind of be stating the same idea?

Here's my practical perspective. As we get older, and especially as adults, we become increasingly responsible for our actions (even if we're "technically obeying orders"). But as kids, we're a lot smaller than our parents and for that reason, our parents can kind of manhandle us into doing their will if they want. Not to say that a kid can't put up a heck of a fight ...

Re:
Quote:
"We may not have complete control over some of the circumstances that we find ourselves in, but we still choose how to react to these circumstances."
Makes sense. Only partial exception I can think of would be if I was shackled to some kind of torture machine. But I guess in theory my mind can always be in control, even if in practice it's a quivering ball of terror.

Re:
Quote:
"I don't know anyone that I remember at this moment that had that literally told to them growing up, but I do know plenty of people and I notice this seems to be the prevailing attitude at least in this country of the U.S.A. from my observations, learning, and experiences of everything from the media to talking to people in-person."
So when I say "citation needed," you could say that your citation is your observations, learning, and experiences. It also sounds like we agree that the media plays its own nasty little role in this shaming process?

Re: shame on Hollywood ... don't be alarmed, I really only meant that figuratively, not literally. The point there is merely: how often, when watching an "average" movie, do you see an actor or actress who doesn't have a "perfect" (face and) body? Not very often.

Re:
Quote:
"Most if not all religions tend to be about control ..."
Yep -- that's about how I see it. (And man if you can control people's sexuality, you've really put the whammy on them.)

Re:
Quote:
"Humanity in general seems to have an addiction to the power of control."
Guess it's "easier" to have someone tell us what to do. "My brain hurts too much when I have to make my own decisions. Please make my decisions for me, oh wise and mighty authority figures."

Re: parents who tell their kids, "Your naked body is a wonderful thing, but the world just isn't ready to see that yet, and so, that's why you should usually keep yourself clothed" ... hmmm. I read an article early today about two young boys (from different families and different parts of the country) who had transsexual tendencies. Each boy was sent to see a counselor (so there were two counselors in this story). The two counselors in question had very different ways of approaching the issue. One counselor saw the boy's tendencies as a "disorder," which, if he was allowed to indulge in it, would cause him much social grief throughout his life because transsexuality is not widely considered acceptable in our society. Thus, even if that counselor didn't condemn transsexuality per se, he could still say that it would be harmful for the boy to actually practice it.

The other counselor took the stance that the other boy's transsexualism was perfectly fine and natural and as such, he should be encouraged to indulge in it. That counselor did not seem to be so worried about how society would react. She considered it more important for that boy's mental health to be himself throughout his life, even if he had to take some social flak for doing so.

Well as you might guess, the first boy (the one who was counseled to "act like a boy," and whose parents were counseled to prod him to do so) ended up in a really tormented frame of mind, and was afraid to show himself when company would come over. He would hide himself in a closet or something and play with what few girl's toys he had left where no one could see him. The second boy (the one who was counseled to "be himself -- i.e., 'herself,'" so to speak, and whose parents were counseled to encourage his transsexualism) ended up happy and well-adjusted and here's the real surprise: He (i.e. she) wasn't persecuted by his (her) fellow students at school at all. In fact, he (she) turned out to be quite popular.

So when you say, parents have no business discouraging a child's nudity for the sake of the child's social well-being, I am reminded of that article. If transsexualism is a good thing to encourage in a child who is so inclined, why shouldn't that child also be encouraged to go "au naturel" if he/she is so inclined? Shouldn't society be "taught to get used to nudity" by seeing it in action?

I like the concept. Buuut ... I guess I still find myself thinking, "Mmmm, society is 'more ready' to see/experience/be exposed to transsexualism than it is to see/experience/be exposed to naturism." Doesn't mean you couldn't still argue that people of all ages should be encouraged to disrobe when/wherever they want to, for the sake of helping to bring about social change (an improvement in society), just means I suspect that "persistent nudity" would be a harder road to travel than transsexualism would be.

All that said, I guess I see your point about "all" parents being equally guilty for "raising a conscientiously clothed child," whether they do so by force, verbal shame, or "It's just safer for you that way honey."

Re: questioning the "fine or subtle differences" between shame, modesty, and dignity ... okay I'll let that topic drop, it's not my intention to "try to catch you making a mistake" or something like that. You can't please everyone, your own happiness definitely matters, and I'm sure we could all turn our attention toward more enlightening stuff.

Re: respect and servitude ... ah, such a fine and perilous line between those two. For example, I don't *really* know whether I'm "respecting" or "serving" my "peers" when I refrain from going nude out in public. Do I care about their sensibilities, or am I just afraid of their reactions? No idea. Some of both? Maybe?
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-03-2013 at 06:03 AM.
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