Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Fireplace

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 10-18-2013, 05:51 AM
kdt26417's Avatar
kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
Official Greeter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Olympia, Washington
Posts: 4,358
Default

For my own benefit, there's a concept I want to bring up that has something to do with "how people look." Taking, for example, the times when I've heard pansexual folks point out that "they fall in love with the person -- not with the person's body" -- and as such (for example) aren't "hung up" on genitalia one way or another.

I propose we lay body type aside for a moment -- be it "ultra-thin" (skeletal), squishy, ripped, large, enormous, or whatever. In fact let's put nudity on hold for a moment and just consider people the way we usually see them every day, with their faces, arms, hands, legs, or what have you exposed/visible. What attracts one person to another person, anyway?

Well, at first it might be their "stunning face" or whatever tempting figure is apparent despite their apparel. Or, some other person might not look very interesting or might look a little oversized to some (not all; this is just an example). So, interest lost, moving on to the rest of the sea of faces and arms and clothing that characterizes so much of visible humanity.

Unless one gets to know another person. Take for example a person with a terribly disfigured face. It is often hard (or awkward at best) to look at such a person. But what if you get to know that person and find out they are a really cool person, and easy to get along with. Then suddenly their face doesn't scare you away like it did in the beginning. You take comfort in seeing them just as they are. It becomes symbolic of their personality.

On the other hand, you could fall in love with some hunk or gorgeous model, and then, upon getting to know them better, find out that they're not so attractive on the inside as they are on the outside. Yes, it's even possible they could turn out to be a hateful person? and if they do, then you no longer take comfort in seeing their beautiful/handsome face. You begin to rather dread seeing that face. That person's "apparent beauty" has been lost to you because of the terror you have experienced within that person.

In examining myself, I have to ask myself, why is it that this or that large person seemed attractive to me, but this or that other large person seemed repulsive to me, and made me want to run away? In fact, why do I have more of a problem with my own "largeness" than I do with most others' in my shoes? The concept I've been describing to you is the best explanation I've come up with so far. It tracks.

After all, I don't see myself as a great/desirable person, speaking of my personality. I usually "talk a good game" on the forum but in real life, I'm practically a non-functioning person. I live with deep stress and gloom most of the time. I have a history of terrible mood swings (finally lately controlled by meds -- I think). I've treated plenty of innocent people badly in my life -- frequently the very people that loved and supported me the most -- and I can't go back and fix that.

So I don't necessarily "like" myself as a person per se. I live with myself, having no choice about that, and make peace with the arrangement as best I can. But I feel like, that since I'm such an insecure and unworthy person, that I ought to have a "perfect body" to make up for it. Well, I don't have the perfect body, so score yet another point against me and what I'm worth. I have mixed feelings about the person I see in the mirror. I know he struggles to be of some help to some people, but I can also see that he's barely holding it together ... and that he doesn't like himself like he should. Why should he like his body if he doesn't like his personality?

Now, my out-of-line jokes are more complicated than I made them sound, because the people "sharing too much information about their bodies" were also people who were really hard to get along with. My parents were always very rigid and tempermental. My mother was extremely critical, of virtually everything I (and my siblings) did. She was physically abusive to all of her kids. So seeing her at all was always an unpleasant experience. It almost always meant we were in trouble. We were in for it. You see, when someone is so vindictive toward another someone, that other someone is going to hope to see less of that person, not more. A person who harbors a hostile ugliness within, teaches persons on the outside to not see that person's natural physical beauty anymore. The most beautiful face in the world can be frightening to see.

So yes, add to that "Mom in the nude" and as an already-traumatized kid, you just feel like, "Oh, I did not need to see that."

As for the person in the waterskiing incident, she had a personality that made my mom look like a saint in comparison. She wasn't just a "bad" or a "mad" person, she was an insane person, with sharply shifting personality traits and a jealousy over the man she had married that surely knows no equal. It was my oldest brother, the gentlest person I ever knew, who she married, and she constantly psychologically and verbally abused him, as well as deeply resented the good relationship he had with his brothers. He was essentially her prisoner. He was rarely or never allowed to see his family.

Given the way she treated virtually everyone around her, especially my brother's siblings, she didn't make many friends. People tolerated her company. They didn't see her as beautiful. They saw some nasty, raging stuff lurking under the giggly surface. So seeing even more of her physical appearance wasn't exactly what people were hoping for. Had she been a likeable person, I think she would have been seen in a very different light during that waterskiing trip.

As it is my family's dubious habit to make fun of everyone including themselves, dealing out nicknames has been like their sign of affection. One of my younger brothers originally nicknamed this sister-in-law I speak of "the gentle giant" when he first met her. That was the vibe she gave off in the beginning. Then the darker side of her psyche emerged, and my younger brother adjusted her nickname to "the not-so-gentle giant." As good as her self-image was, she didn't look very good to other people at that point.

My siblings and I tended to crouch in the basement when my mom was rampaging about the house. She instilled a sense of terror in us, and we coped dysfunctionally by making fun of all the crazy things she did. This, I believe, was the genesis was of our tendency to carelessly disrespect various select individuals, and come off as if we are insulting a whole group. I guess you could say I'm still in the process of learning that you can't talk that way to people in the adult world.

The principle, though, remains. Personality has much to do with the beauty in the eye of the beholder, once that beholder has gotten to know the person in question. So it really depends who we're talking about who I would have been likely to "joke" about. If someone had hurt/tormented me at some point in my life, my learned tendency might be to find any little petty thing I could pick at them for. If they didn't have any extra pounds I could make fun of, I'm sure I'd find something else.

Or I could just put aside the dysfunctional coping mechanisms of childhood, and adopt a respectful attitude towards people of all shapes and sizes, no matter how I personally experienced their appearance. That doesn't mean that unpleasant people would start looking pleasant to me. It just means I'd stop picking on them (as a warped way to try to distract my own mind). And maybe it would mean that I'd stop assuming all those beautiful movie stars must be great people through-and-through.

The best, most lasting romances I ever heard of, were always ones where the persons involved began to look better and better (more and more attractive) to each other over time. I think that's what happens when you learn to love someone as a person. You learn to love their looks more than you ever expected to.
__________________
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-18-2013, 06:12 AM
london london is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: UK - land of the free
Posts: 1,635
Default

I really wouldn't worry about it too much, Kev. Extreme obesity is unsightly. Age can also make body parts look conventionally unattractive. Is what it is.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-18-2013, 01:16 PM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 3,487
Default

I guess because I am overweight but have had no trouble at all finding dates/partners who prefer a larger woman... and because I am on Fetlife where there seems to be thousands of men who adore BBWs, I don't get the idea that fat automatically equals grossness or unattractiveness.

I am not quite a BBW, but many men have gone gaga over my voluptuous figure.

And I know some men prefer women even larger than I am. And many many men prefer women who are NOT model thin. The trick is not to date people who prefer a thin partner and think it's ok to constantly run you down because of your weight.

I agree that when your weight starts causing health problems, it's time to lose a few pounds. Diabetes, joint pain, high cholesterol, etc., can be controlled by losing some weight, even just 10% of your body weight can make a difference.

Kevin, thanks for sharing about your pain from your childhood. Also, I haven't said this before, but I've seen you mention losing your wife to Alzheimers recently. Please accept my sympathies.
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 58, living with:
miss pixi, 37, who is dating (NRE):
Master, 32
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-18-2013, 02:46 PM
FullofLove1052 FullofLove1052 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: English Rose by birth; Calling the Southern Hemi home by choice.
Posts: 863
Default

Thank you for sharing about your childhood. You survived very difficult circumstances, and you have made it to adulthood. Whether or not you believe it, you overcame adversity. We all have down days, stressful days, and bitchy, moody days. It just means that we are human and capable of expressing something other than happy-go-lucky emotions. It is okay to feel and be down, but you cannot stay down.

We have all have scars from the past. I am sure others have times when they do not like themselves or what is looking back at them in their reflection. No one is perfect. How many people have not treated people who loved them in less than stellar ways? I know I am guilty of it.

And who wants the perfect body anyway? It is overrated. I would rather adopt a healthy body image and have ideal health, at whatever size, than have the perfect body. If I did not have abs, the world would not end. Cellulite and stretch marks? The day will still go on.

I do not have the commitment to achieve perfection. I will do cardio in the form of walking/jogging, take toning/dancing (or pole dancing) classes, swim, play sports like tennis, or just do anything to keep my heart healthy. I cannot motivate myself to go to the gym.

I am neither turned on or off by people who are of a certain weight. Then again, nothing turns me or attracts me about people I have no emotional bond or share romantic love with. It is not my right to deem someone as fat or make them feel uncomfortable fully clothed or naked. I just do not care to be around nudity in more than artistic form. I have no issue with it. If people are comfortable and feel beautiful enough in their skin to walk around in their birthday suits on beaches and nudist colonies, that is great for them. Confidence is always a plus.

There is just a time and place for nudity. Will it ever be accepted in to mainstream society? I do not know. Most likely not. There are far too many prudish and uptight people. Partial or full nudity is perfectly natural in some cultures. When travelling in Solomon Islands, tourists are greeted by topless women. Are all those women rail thin and runway ready? No, they represent what real women look like. It is not a sexualised thing for them. Would I ever see that at home or even here? Probably not. People would flip out.

I proudly declare that I do not have the perfect body. I used to be ashamed of my curves. I felt like I was disproportionate and oddly built. The small waist, toned tummy, and long torso vs. my hips/bum made for a very odd match. It just seemed like the top half of my body missed the memo that the bottom half got. During my teen years, I felt like I needed to be rail thin. Due to my height, model thin would never look right on me. I would look emaciated. I am not trying to look like a walking lollipop.
__________________
Lizzy formerly known as Ry - Me. Panromantic demisexual with a history of polyamorist tendencies. Married to...
Matt - The once distant stranger that I complement beautifully. DH of 12 years and father of our (3) children.
Closed.

My Blog
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-18-2013, 08:13 PM
kdt26417's Avatar
kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
Official Greeter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Olympia, Washington
Posts: 4,358
Default

Alright, let me return to the title question of the thread.

Re:
Quote:
"Why do people make such big deals at certain body parts? Why so much self hatred?"
So, ColorsWolf (or whoever wants to tackle this question), what in your experience has led you to believe that too many people make too big a deal at certain body parts? Who are these people, and how can I pick them out of a crowd? What are the signs in society in general that this is a problem? Is it the lack of public nudity? Anything else?

And secondly, what in your experience has led you to believe that so many people hate themselves? What are the signs of this self hatred, and how I can I pick it out in a crowd? Alternatively, what are the signs of someone loving themselves? Is it just a vibe they give off, or is there anything specific that tends to show?

I wish I would have asked some of these questions at the beginning of the thread; I sense that we are missing much of the whole point, that there is a narrative behind the thread title that we haven't yet heard.

Sure I have my own ideas and point of view, and it was so easy to leap onstage with that. We've heard plenty of ideas and points of view which is great and probably somehow relates to the genesis of the thread, but I'd like to hear the rest of the story.

Let me put it another way. ColorsWolf, what was your original reason for initiating this thread? What were you hoping we'd all learn from it? I'm not suggesting you're disappointed with what's been posted, I'm just curious as to what your original thoughts were (before all these other posts).

So, what of the core topic here? What is and isn't missing so far?
__________________
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 10-18-2013, 09:37 PM
kdt26417's Avatar
kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
Official Greeter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Olympia, Washington
Posts: 4,358
Default P.S.

I apologize for not responding directly to the civil/compassionate posts that you guys just posted on my behalf. Bear with me, I'm in the midst of a vulnerable state of mind -- afraid to say anything, you might say. I didn't sleep much last night; my brain's not working at peak levels.

Magdlyn, I appreciate that your experiences are and have not quite been the same as my experiences. I have experienced people on a very emotional level. Body type has only been an "excuse" for me to form my particular prejudices, and I've paid for harboring that excuse. It's hard for me to express how much it means to me when someone extends their love and friendship towards me. At that point, I could kind of care less about their body type. I just want to be close to them, as the old Carpenter's song goes, "Close to You." Ironic that Karen Carpenter passed away because of anorexia. Did anyone not mourn her death? I did.

Yes I did recently lose my wife to Alzheimer's. Her gravesite is finally finished, and she has a beautiful headstone. Because she was cremated, we were able to bury her with perhaps her coolest aunt of all time. But Halfway, Oregon, is such a remote place. I'm glad my wife was laid to rest in the town where she was born, but I also know I'll probably only visit that site one more time in the future -- someday. What does one say to a lovely headstone that serves as a mere symbol of a person who I could never adequately thank? I'm sure I'll just stand there looking at her grave, wishing I could go back in time.

FullofLove, I have always felt like I could be my stupid old imperfect self around you, and you would accept it in your unforgettably graceful way. I sooo get what you're saying that beneath every "plain-looking body" is a person that anyone would be privileged to know. I'm just glad that we both have a gym aversion!

And london: thanks in general for your understanding of my ... medical point of view? not quite sure how else to put it. Let's just say that I've been relying on you lately ...

Accumulated years have taught me that I didn't appreciate the body I once had. I guess we all examine ourselves for "imperfections," and of course we find them because honestly, how many people are born with perfect magazine proportions? So where I once obsessed about the peculiar bulges I couldn't get rid of, I now wish I could "get those bulges back again."

Aside all the kind and sympathetic expressions that have come my way here today, and as crucial as they are, I still don't want my "larger point" to be lost, the point that we see people largely as we experience them. That is, anyone who we see as beautiful on the inside, we soon see as beautiful on the outside. Maybe we're not ready for worldwide nudity because we're not ready to love and appreciate each other enough as people to make that possible. We don't trust each other. We "need" our barriers between each other, and sometimes what we wear is part of that barrier.

Forget valuing how we look. We're all quirky in that way. The question is, how can we dissolve the emotional barriers that we form between each other? Answer that question, and all this self hatred and obsession over certain body parts will surely come to an end.
__________________
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 10-18-2013, 09:52 PM
ColorsWolf's Avatar
ColorsWolf ColorsWolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: CA, U.S.A.
Posts: 362
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
I really wouldn't worry about it too much, Kev. Extreme obesity is unsightly. Age can also make body parts look conventionally unattractive. Is what it is.
You just don't understand what he was talking about, do you?~ *shakes head* -_-


FullofLove1052,

Every thing is perfect to me, because perfection is like beauty: it is up to the person interpreting it.~
__________________
Love yourself, you are beautiful!~ ^_^

*Believe in yourself, you can do anything*!~ ^_^

Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~


Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-18-2013 at 09:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:10 PM
ColorsWolf's Avatar
ColorsWolf ColorsWolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: CA, U.S.A.
Posts: 362
Default

Kevin,

Always remember that you never "have to" do anything even live, I can not tell you how to live or not live your life nor can any one else and make it reality for you just by telling you.~

You make the limitations in your life, you make the rules, and you decide whether or not you even want these things to exist in your life.~

You hold all the power in your life, even if you don't see it.~


I think to answer your last point, that people especially in America think too much about clothes giving them more value than they really do have and giving too much meaning to "being naturally without clothes", in many other countries "nudity" is nothing to become upset over, there are FAR more important things for them to be concerned about.~

I think maybe we as a so-called "modern advanced society" have too much time to ourselves that we are directing in a unhealthy direction, instead of being concerned with these illogical "shameful" mentalities that we have been for 1,000's of years it would be much more beneficial and healthier for everyone if we directed our attention towards improvement of ourselves and of our societies.~
__________________
Love yourself, you are beautiful!~ ^_^

*Believe in yourself, you can do anything*!~ ^_^

Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~

Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 10-18-2013, 10:55 PM
kdt26417's Avatar
kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
Official Greeter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Olympia, Washington
Posts: 4,358
Default

Heh, don't blame london, I'm afraid everyone missed my point due to their kind sympathies towards me personally. Which is fine, because I really do just want to make friends (despite my dumb mistakes that cause me to make enemies).

Or do the concepts even matter. Was it ever about anything except people per se?

Re:
Quote:
"Everything is perfect to me, because perfection is like beauty: it is up to the person interpreting it."
So what do we do when we find ourselves struggling to love a person as a human being? How should we view Hitler, for example? Was he a monster, or just some regular guy who never got the help he needed?

And today, all we seem to know is that "His mustache was ugly." His hairdo was ugly. He was an ugly person. Why? because he orchestrated the cruel killing of numberless Jews and other outcasts.

So ColorsWolf, I am hearing that you are of the "We create our own reality" belief system. Not that this was the point of your thread, just that it is a qualifying statement.

So your message is that bodily concerns are taking precedent over social concerns? the narrative being that for thousands of years, people (especially Americans) have been agonizing over how ashamed they are of themselves (physically), instead of directing their attention towards ... well ... what should we be directing our attention towards? Yes yes, ourselves and our societies, but what does that mean specifically? What parts of ourselves and our societies are being neglected?

When you speak of what's especially wrong with America, how does that compare to other countries? What are the signs of these differences? I mean it sounds to me like nudity is just an indicator of something more fundamental.

Are you sure America is that prudish compared to the world at large? Look at the Middle East for example; for crying out loud they're upset if their women aren't covered from head to toe.

Is clothing, then, a distraction from the things that really matter in life? How so? If the world became a clothing-optional world, would doors and windows open up into a better society? Again are we talking about the cause here, or just the symptom?

So, be it in America or elsewhere, what are the issues that we should be concentrating on? also, what are the issues that we should be laying aside? I'm sure clothing is one, but are there others?

Given where the world's mindset is at, how do we get from here to where we need to be in the future?
__________________
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 10-19-2013, 04:18 AM
ColorsWolf's Avatar
ColorsWolf ColorsWolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: CA, U.S.A.
Posts: 362
Default

By focusing less on the "superficial" things, truly so much time, resources, and effort is "wasted" on things with Humans bickering over the smallest of details that matter very little if at all logically.~

Yes emotions play such an important role in life, how ever there comes a point where "emotion" becomes so powerful it overrides our sense of "rationality": this is the point where our emotions start to hinder us instead of benefiting us.~

The smallest of details becomes the biggest of problems when emotion overrides rationality.~

The color of some one's skin makes only makes a difference between individual Humans based upon temperature and climate, it only becomes a HUGE 'problem' when people obsess so much over it to the point of being illogical that it then becomes a problem.~

So what if some Humans are sexually attracted to the same sex?~ Their population does not consist of enough of a threat to the survival of the species.~ Some still participate in act of reproduction of the species through alternative methods such as in vitro fertilization, thus negating any threat they may have presented towards the continuation of the species.~

A lot of this "irrationality" is caused by "religion".~ Some would go so far to "justify" their "irrationality" by claiming "their god or what ever they are 'servants' to or 'must obey' demands that they cause harm to others".~

I'm not saying "religion" or "matters of the metaphysical" need to be wiped out, what I'm saying is they become a problem when they encourage us to "waste" SO MUCH of everything on details that have little practical value, but apparently have SO MUCH "other value" to these "devout" of these problematic "religions" AND promote our self-destruction as a species.~


Some day we may try to destroy each other in a giant war over "plaid t-shirts versus plain t-shirts"!~

When will this madness stop?!~ When there is absolutely NOTHING left of us as a species?!~
__________________
Love yourself, you are beautiful!~ ^_^

*Believe in yourself, you can do anything*!~ ^_^

Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~


Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-19-2013 at 04:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
body, hate, hatred, human, self-hatred

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:29 AM.