Needing some input from experienced people please [Archive]

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Alexandra

11-26-2009, 01:33 AM

Hello :)

I'm unsettled by the situation that I'm in, and I'm hoping I might get some useful advice from experienced others please.

Briefly: I'm in my mid forties, happy and healthy. I've been in a relationship with my partner L for almost twenty years. We've had our ups and downs, of course, but we're happy and good for each other. I love him dearly, I don't want to be without him.

June this year, I found myself back in touch with my first love, T. To my surprise and delight, I found that I am still in love with him. He has never stopped loving me and hoping that we might one day be reconciled. (However, we've had almost no contact in the intervening years.) We texted and spoke on the phone and eventually we met up. The feelings were incredibly intense and beautiful.

After a couple of months I knew that I didn't want to be without T or L. I approached L and asked if he might consider opening our relationship. We discussed it over several weeks, and eventually he agreed. However, he said that he felt that he didn't really have a choice. He recognises that I am "madly" (his word) in love with T, he is fearful of losing me.

When T asks me "What do you want?" I say "I'm greedy, I want both of you. Why should I have to choose between these two amazing men? Why should I ration the love that is available and offered to me?" T is prepared to share me, to meet L if L wants it, and is generally being generous, open, loving, patient and kind.

L believes that T has an agenda, and is "dishonourable" for "messing with another man's lady". T pointed out (half joking) that since he knew me first and has never stopped loving me, it is in fact L that is the interloper

I feel no remorse or guilt at all, but I do feel the pain that L is experiencing, and I hate that I am causing him pain.

L either can't or won't talk about it. It's become the elephant in the room.

How can I negotiate this, how can I make it easier for L?

Obviously, this is a very brief synopsis and it's all far more interesting and complex than this post allows!

Alexandra

11-26-2009, 01:36 AM

I should add that I am present, reassuring, loving, attentive, responsive and mindful towards L.

AutumnalTone

11-26-2009, 02:08 AM

I don't know that there's anything you can do unless L decides to discuss the issues. It takes the two of you to negotiate issues, not just one of you. Without him taking an active role in negotiating things...well, there's no negotiating things.

He just may not be able to deal with a poly relationship, even if he's just poly to the extent that he's in a mono pairing with a poly partner. There are no magic words to engage somebody who's just not interested in discussing an issue. It may end up that you have to decide on one or the other.

Alexandra

11-26-2009, 02:28 AM

By not discussing it with me, he creates an impasse, which is one way to assert control of some sort, I suppose.

It's funny... I always thought he was the more poly-minded of us, but it appears that I may have been wrong in this.

No, I can't seem to find the magic words to enable him to discuss this with me. He seems to think that if he doesn't think about it or talk about it it, it somehow isn't happening. But he is having bad dreams, very clearly about this situation.

One of the things that makes me uncomfortable is that his refusal to engage with the issue somehow forces me to be secretive. And that feels deceiptful. If T phones me, I feel that I have to hide it from L.

Having to choose between them is not something I want. I love L, I don't want to be without him, he makes me happy. But now that T is in my life, I can't imagine being without him either.

rolypoly

11-26-2009, 05:21 AM

Maybe L needs time? Maybe a different approach? (Not sure what). I can see how it is difficult to be at a standstill when you're willing and wanting to discuss things, but it takes two to do that...

redpepper

11-26-2009, 08:03 AM

Perhaps if you told L that you are beginning to find a need to go underground with your love and that is not going to work for the long haul then he will sit up and listen. It probably would help if you were to spend time all three of you together. Bottom line is that he needs time and you will have to wait, keep communicating and be patient.

There are many stories on here that are similar to yours... please read as much as you can on here and elsewhere, because you are not alone.

MonoVCPHG

11-26-2009, 08:04 AM

Sometimes you just have to make a choice in life. Hopefully you will be able to work through it and all be happy. Happiness may or may not result in being together. Just accept that while loving two may seem natural to you it may be beyond the ability of others. Nothing wrong with that..just life.

Take care

Alexandra

11-26-2009, 08:59 AM

Thanks for the replies :)

Maybe L needs time? Maybe a different approach? (Not sure what). I can see how it is difficult to be at a standstill when you're willing and wanting to discuss things, but it takes two to do that...

Yes, of course he needs time, I can see that. I am patient by nature, and T is also prepared to be patient. But I suspect that L may use the waiting game as another way to keep things on his terms.

I don't like game laying. And I;m not even sure that L sees that it might be game playing. He's just trying to cope, reacting to a new and very difficult situation.

Perhaps if you told L that you are beginning to find a need to go underground with your love and that is not going to work for the long haul then he will sit up and listen. It probably would help if you were to spend time all three of you together. Bottom line is that he needs time and you will have to wait, keep communicating and be patient.

There are many stories on here that are similar to yours... please read as much as you can on here and elsewhere, because you are not alone.

I wish it were possible to have a meeting with all three of us. L has said he cannot think of meeting T. Originally he said "In case I like him". Now I think he simply cannot contemplate such a thing. He seems very stuck.

I am open and looking for any and every opening for discussion, but L keeps shutting it down, avoiding it, and I don't want to force him to talk about it when it clearly is so painful for him. However, avoiding it is also very clearly causing him pain.

He even said that he wishes I'd just had an affair and left him in "blissful ignorance". I pulled him up on that and he admitted it was not the better option.

I don't want to use emotional leverage though: I hate ultimatums, they never work. By saying "I'm beginning to find a need to go underground with this love and that is not going to work for the long haul", am I not creating an ultimatum? Is that really my best option?

Sometimes you just have to make a choice in life. Hopefully you will be able to work through it and all be happy. Happiness may or may not result in being together. Just accept that while loving two may seem natural to you it may be beyond the ability of others. Nothing wrong with that..just life.

Take care

Yes, life... But the thought of losing either one of them is just horrible.

Ah me.... :(

Why is it that something that has the potential to be so beautiful, abundant and embracing can also be the source of pain and exclusion....

The irony is that in all the years we've been together, L has always had intimate emotional attachments to other women. I have always allowed and even encouraged these attachments. They have never become physical, but I know that he has been in love with some of them. Indeed, he is currently involved with one and has been for two years.

I too have had close emotional connections with other men over the years. The difference now is that I want to be sexual with T.

Why does L feel so much more threatened by this aspect of it? I know you guys can't answer this for me, I know it can only be resolved in discussion and by communication, but in the absence of such an opportunity, I have to use the keyboard and an internet forum to straighten out my thoughts....

MonoVCPHG

11-26-2009, 09:06 AM

Why does L feel so much more threatened by this aspect of it? ....

If he is anything like me maybe this will help.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1016

MonoVCPHG

11-26-2009, 09:14 AM

Why is it that something that has the potential to be so beautiful, abundant and embracing can also be the source of pain and exclusion....

....

Try not to forget that what you are asking for is not recieved by most the way you describe it. Put the question to your friends and family and see if they use the same words.

It takes a lot of different wiring and thinking to even comprehend poly, let alone embrace it. Yes, it can be all the things you say; beautiful, abundant and embracing ....for the right people. For the wrong people it is pain and exclusion.

Each of us as individuals have to find our own path and decide who and how many we will walk it with.

NeonKaos

11-26-2009, 02:35 PM

MonoVCPHG

11-26-2009, 03:49 PM

I hope you don't mind a few direct questions and statements...if so, no need to respond my friend :)

Hello :)

June this year, I found myself back in touch with my first love, T. !

How?

He has never stopped loving me and hoping that we might one day be reconciled.

L believes that T has an agenda, and is "dishonourable" for "messing with another man's lady". T pointed out (half joking) that since he knew me first and has never stopped loving me, it is in fact L that is the interloper

I'm a little suspicious myself honestly. "Half joking" anything usually means there is half truth in it. I'd hate to think this guy has a sense of being "obliged" because of your history. That would be disrespect to your husband in my humble secondary opinion.

I feel no remorse or guilt at all

A little New Relationship Energy perhaps?

GroundedSpirit

11-26-2009, 04:03 PM

MonoVCPHG

11-26-2009, 04:06 PM

I see some sound advice here already but it leaves me at a point of wondering if we've even maybe jumped "ahead" ?
GS

I agree.

Magdlyn

11-26-2009, 05:00 PM

Alexandra

11-27-2009, 11:55 AM

When it comes right down to it, you can decide to suck it up and be "just friends" with T. There are qualities called "self control" and "free will" and those are two things that set us as humans apart from animals.

In other words, the world is not going to end as you know it just because you don't have sex with T.

Good luck with that.

Yes, I know this.

L and I have been together for nearly twenty years. In that time, we both of us have had close emotional connections with other people, this has never been an issue for either of us*. Neither of us has ever made those connections sexual.

Speaking for myself, I have certainly been in love with some of those others, and I have desired them sexually. I have will power, I am able to exercise self control.

With T, the desire to be sexual is very powerful. This may be because our teenage love affair was never consummated. We are both able to exercise self control, indeed we have had to rely upon this ability!

As for just being friends - well, I cannot pretend that I'm not in love with him. I can try to keep it non-sexual, I can decide to do that, but even if we never have sex, I will always be aware (well so far this is true) of the heat and desire that we generate when we are in each other's company.

* When I say it's never been an issue, it is of course more complicated than that implies. I don't have a problem with the fact that we each have emotionally intimate connections with other people, nor with the fact that those connections are exclusive and personal. But L tends to chose women who are often rude and out of order towards me. While I tolerate their behaviour when we are in public, I refuse to put up with in in my own home.

We have discussed this a lot over the years. If one of my boyfriends were rude to him, I'd soon say something, but L allows his girlfriends to disrespect me. It's very interesting, and there's much to discuss and explore here. I've certainly given a lot of thought to this dynamic myself.

I have never doubted L's love for me, his relationships with other women have never been the issue. I don't feel jealous or threatened, but it does piss me off when they are ignorant or cocky towards me in my own home! And it pisses me off that L allows and enables their behaviour.

I think that if we were able to move towards an openly acknowledged polyamorous agreement, then we would have to address these issues within that context and perhaps be better able to resolve them.

Alexandra

11-27-2009, 12:06 PM

If he is anything like me maybe this will help.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1016

Thanks Mono, I found that very useful. I have wondered if perhaps it's just that L is more monogamous by nature than I am...

Try not to forget that what you are asking for is not recieved by most the way you describe it. Put the question to your friends and family and see if they use the same words.

It takes a lot of different wiring and thinking to even comprehend poly, let alone embrace it. Yes, it can be all the things you say; beautiful, abundant and embracing ....for the right people. For the wrong people it is pain and exclusion.

Each of us as individuals have to find our own path and decide who and how many we will walk it with.

And thanks again. Yes, I know that it's a big leap for many people. I think I am by nature more poly-minded. When I was in my teens I dreaded the thought of being married, tied to one person for ever, never able to develop new intimacies.

I never really wanted an "open relationship", I mean I never wanted to just pick up lovers or swing. But when I first heard about polyamory it seemed very attractive and sensible to me.

I have broached the subject with L from time to time over the years, but he has always shut down the conversation pretty quickly. I never pursued it because I never had the deep urge that I am currently experiencing with T. And because we arrived at an unspoken agreement whereby we each allowed the other to form these close emotional intimacies with others. We even refer to these friends as "your boyfriend" and "your girlfriend".

The pain and exclusion you refer to: yes, I understand that. I see it and feel it in L now. And I have experienced it myself.

Alexandra

11-27-2009, 12:43 PM

I hope you don't mind a few direct questions and statements...if so, no need to respond my friend :)

I'm happy to respond, especially to one so open hearted as yourself :) It's a great opportunity to explore and understand my own motivations and thinking.

How?

You ask how T and I have re-connected after so many years. I'll start by asking a question of my own: I'm wondering why this is relevant? Especially since magdlyn has also asked the question.

We were together for two years when I was 15-17 and he was 16-18. I broke off with him, but not because I no longer loved him. My life was so different, I was going through some very tough and messy stuff, and my family had moved away from the area.

Over the intervening years, I have often thought of him and occasionally (like maybe three times) I'd phone his family home to send greetings and hear news. I didn't speak to him, only to his mum or dad.

Nine years ago, T phoned me (the only time we actually spoke with each other in the last 30 years). He got my number out of the phone book. We had a long conversation and when we hung up, I felt exactly as I had when we were together as teenagers. There was no gap between us. I was surprised by that, but acknowledged to myself that I was still connected to T, still in love with him. And I went back to my own life, enjoying the sense of love. About a year or two later I phoned his mum to send greetings. And so it went.

This last time I phoned (June) his mum said that the house was on the market and they were about to leave the area. Had I left it another month (and every time I've phoned in the past, I've procrastinated for at least a month), I'd have lost connection with T. (He's not a cyberspace person, no facebook or anything of that sort).

His mum offered to pass my number on to T, and to my surprise he phoned me within the week. It quickly came up in conversation that he had never stopped loving me, and I couldn't help telling him that I too felt love for him.

Because I am accustomed to feeling connected and emotional intimacy with people other than L, I didn't think this would be any different. But of course, somehow, it is. Perhaps because he and I were so in love when we were youngsters? Perhaps because he is not a part of my life with L? I don't know.

At first I thought that was simply hung up on me, hung up on the past and our teenage romance, but it's really more than that, He knows me as I am now, he doesn't expect me or require me to be the teenage me... Indeed, I think the reason we were so connected when we were young is because he was able to see and love the real true inner essence of me when I was just a kid. And to me, he seems just the same as he was then. I don't mean that he seems like a 17 year old, I mean that I love in him now just what it was I loved in him then.

I'm a little suspicious myself honestly. "Half joking" anything usually means there is half truth in it. I'd hate to think this guy has a sense of being "obliged" because of your history. That would be disrespect to your husband in my humble secondary opinion.

Of course, yes. As Freud taught, there is no such thing as a joke... I chided him for it and he excused himself saying "Sorry, that was a Bloke thing" or something similar. Actually, he is very respectful and generous about L. He has never pressured me or made me feel in any way as if L is a difficulty for him. When I ask him about this ability, he says "He's your rock, your root, you love him, you're with him. Loving you is about wanting you to have what you want, what makes you happy, and L makes you happy". He is not greedy or needy about my time, energy or attentions.

And as I have said elsewhere, although L tolerates and allows disrespect from his "girlfriends" towards me, I would not (and do not) accept or tolerate that from my "boyfriends".

A little New Relationship Energy perhaps?

Well of course....! But are you suggesting that I ought to feel remorse and guilt?

I do feel dreadful that I am causing pain for L, but not guilty. I mean that I don't feel that being loved is a thing to feel guilty about. I don't feel that I have done anything wrong. I have not lied or cheated or betrayed. I have been open, I am trying to behave honourably, I am trying to find ways to negotiate new and challenging territory, with respect and love for L and for our relationship.

I think that in a way this whole thing would be far simpler (not easier, certainly, but more simple) if I wasn't in love with L, if I was just ready to end the relationship and move on. But I don't want to leave L, I love him, I love our life, I love to spend time with him.

If anything, I am more aware and more appreciative of the love L and I share now that I have T in my life.

Alexandra

11-27-2009, 12:52 PM

Hi Alexandra,
I see some sound advice here already but it leaves me at a point of wondering if we've even maybe jumped "ahead" ?
Something to really focus on I think is that overall awareness of "polyamory" in the general population is pretty low and even confused in some who have at least some minimal exposure.
And it seems from your writing you may be in that position right now and IF that's the case then I feel you need to back up, slow down, and as some have suggested start ALL having some deep discussion on the topic & possibilities in general. If you go rushing ahead you may tank the ship for lack of a good compass and understanding of wave behavior.

The general concept of being able to be -successfully - in a loving relationship (let's say 'romantic' although I hate that term) with more than a single individual is NOT something most people are exposed to in our culture.
For most it comes as one of those "WHOAAA - you are saying WHAT ???" moments. And THAT is where the learning process starts.
There's LOTS of good resources out there including forums like this that you all should probably investigate. A couple that come to mind are......

Polyamorysociety.org
Lovemore.com

The folks here I know will be happy to share their views & experiences with all of you too.

Good luck !

GS

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by "jumped ahead".

Are you suggesting that I may not fully understand the concept? I'm sure that's true to some extent: after all, can you really understand something until / unless you live it?

I have thought about polyamory a fair bit over the years, I have discussed it as a concept with people, and read about it a bit as well.

Many of our friends and acquaintances have asked us if we have an open relationship because we are accepting of each others' "girlfriends" and "boyfriends" (I don't really know what other term to use for these close connections with others).

I know that I don't want to have an affair, be secretive and deceptive.

I know that I am in love with more than one person, and that I want those people to continue to be part of my lfe.

I know that if / when L is in love with (an)other people, I will have to deal with that too. I know that I may be ambushed by my own feelings and reactions ( I have been in the past!).

I know that communication is key, and I am willing to have difficult conversations.

I know that L may be unable or unwilling to accept polyamory. I know that he may ask me to choose. At this point, I dread this and I have no idea how that might pan out.

I know that polyamory is something that is not accepted or acceptable to many. I know that this may cause problems in our family and social circle. I know we may have to obscure things from those we love, and that's not great.

Alexandra

11-27-2009, 01:08 PM

Gosh i have a lot of empathy for you, Alexandra. Your reconnection w L is intense, you feel infatuated, you have what is called NRE, new relationship energy. I have had so many "crushes" while I was in my long term mono marriage... I know how overwhelming they are, like an obsession.

Yes, I wonder as others do, how you reconnected w L.

My gf and I just went to a conference last weekend where poly/mono relationships were addressed. Where one partner wants other partners, and yet his/her primary doesnt. That isnt our situation, but the material in that session should help you. Here's a link to that faciliator's workshop material on the subject.

all downloadable docs here:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/downloadabledocuments.html

guide to opening a prev mono relationship:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/14_steps_to_opening_a_relationship.pdf

the pleasure and pain of poly/mono relationships
http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Lemons_and_Lemonade_-_Poly_Mono_Relationships.pdf

Thanks for the links. I'll have a proper delve when I have the time to devote to them properly.

NRE... yes, of course that's part of the picture. But it really doesn't feel like a crush. It feels to me like a deep true lasting connection.

I've had crushes, and they're a lot of fun, but really very internal, private, somehow nothing to do with real life, and never something that I want to pursue or develop. I have had a crush on one of L's best buddies for the whole time I've known him. I adore him, admire and respect him, fancy him, and I suspect that some of the feelings are reciprocated; but I'd never want to be in a loving / romantic relationship with him.

And I've had very tender crushes on others too, with fluttering heart and yearnings.

And I have been in love with several others while L and I have been together. One of them I still have a very close relationship with. We date, we hang out, we have occasionally teased each other about fancying each other, I miss him when I don't see him, we enjoy gazing into each others eyes; and now that he has a girlfriend (he's mono by nature, he says), while I am of course happy for him, I miss our intimate moments together.

But until now, with T, I have never felt this um... need, I suppose, to really incorporate them into my life.

Why?

Not sure.

Perhaps because of the connection we had when we were youngsters. Perhaps, as I said, because it was unconsummated back then: unfinished business. Perhaps because T is not someone I just met, someone who knows L, someone who is part of my current social circle and life.

Or perhaps because it's true and real and he and I are in love?

NeonKaos

11-27-2009, 01:49 PM

But L tends to chose women who are often rude and out of order towards me. While I tolerate their behaviour when we are in public, I refuse to put up with in in my own home.

We have discussed this a lot over the years. If one of my boyfriends were rude to him, I'd soon say something, but L allows his girlfriends to disrespect me. It's very interesting, and there's much to discuss and explore here. I've certainly given a lot of thought to this dynamic myself.

I have never doubted L's love for me, his relationships with other women have never been the issue. I don't feel jealous or threatened, but it does piss me off when they are ignorant or cocky towards me in my own home! And it pisses me off that L allows and enables their behaviour.

This is categorically unacceptable. It's your life and all that, but these women disrespect you IN YOUR OWN HOME AND your husband condones it? I can't say I've walked in your shoes, but as a stranger with no vested interest in your personal situation, I would say that your husband and these women deserve each other, and that you deserve better.

RP, PLEASE say something.

redpepper

11-27-2009, 04:00 PM

I'm not sure why you have called on me Ygirl? oh the pressure ;)

Anyway, I am left feeling very concerned about all you say Alexandra. You say that you and your husband have had loving relationships before yet have never had sex with anyone that has come into your life in the secondary kind of way. You have said that the women your husband choices have treated you badly and you haven't really objected unless it's in your home.

If this thing with your T becomes sexual then it would follow to reason that your L would want to start having sex with the women he sees....

Major RED FLAGS with that one!

Sex will exacerbate them treating you badly and him not doing anything about it. I think you have some major things to deal with here. I am really quite concerned that if you don't deal with them you will end up being very damaged by all this.

I don't usually advocate therapy as I tend to think that people can work things out for themselves with a bit of guidance and good supporting friends, but this is huge to me as it is teetering on the edge of abuse. I suggest marriage counseling.

I would love to say that you need to stand up for yourself etc blah blah blah I am sure Ygirl and others will say just that, but this is a pattern it sounds like and could very well run deep. It sounds like both of you need some better ways of dealing with people in your lives and not letting them trample over you and run the show.

There is something rather sadistic in this whole thing. He could very well just be a bit in denial that these women are bitches to you or he could be getting off on it. If he is truly concerned that his girlfriends treat you badly and doesn't know what to do then I suggest that you have lots of things to communicate about and I would stop everything to reconnect in this way before moving ahead with T, but really I think that should of already happened and the problem should be resolved not repeated... it sounds like it never was....

It seems the bigger issue here is not T, but the relationship between you and your husband. All the rest is the same usual stuff that people who are trying to get a poly life going face and that all comes out in the wash one way or another when a balanced primary relationship is running smoothly.

NeonKaos

11-27-2009, 04:10 PM

I'm not sure why you have called on me Ygirl? oh the pressure ;)

I would love to say that you need to stand up for yourself etc blah blah blah I am sure Ygirl and others will say just that,

Well of course I would SAY that, but saying that would be like showing someone a picture of a finished cake and expecting them to figure out how to duplicate the recipe.

To be honest, I didn't think you would say the things you said, so thank you for taking the time to spell everything out (even though this is not my thread). Hopefully it will be helpful to the OP and to future members and lurkers if they god forbid ever read the "older" posts on here.

I'm going to add a couple of tags to this thread, but I can only add 2, so maybe some other folks will contribute to that too.

MonoVCPHG

11-27-2009, 05:16 PM

You ask how T and I have re-connected after so many years. I'll start by asking a question of my own: I'm wondering why this is relevant? Especially since magdlyn has also asked the question.

.

Now that I have heard more about your relationship dynamic it is clear to me that my initial thoughts were not based an accurate assumptions and I apologize for that.

My immediate assumptions based on your original post? You went on line (probably Facebook lol) reconnected with an old flame, started an online affair, needed to justify it or find a way to work it into your life and found poly because it suited your needs.

I had no idea that your relationship invovled very close "friendships" on both your parts. I would not have responded the way I did in light of that info. Sorry for letting my mind run free :(

Because I am not familiar with this type of dynamic I don't think I know how to give advice in this. RP and friends have a much more worldly view and experience base to draw on.

Peace and Love
Mono

Magdlyn

11-27-2009, 05:49 PM

Wow, yeah, this added info does change things a bit. First of all, you 2 already seem kinda poly in some ways, with these intense emotional relationships you both have w others, "loving" others you call bfs and gfs.

It's very disturbing he keeps choosing women who are dissing you. wtf?

I couldnt bear that.

I am not anti-therapy as redpepper is. My ex and I had counseling several times in our lives for this or that reason in our long relationship; it did help us get over certain speedbumps and deal w putting to rest certain things from our childhoods. (We never made poly work tho... but that's irrelevant here.)

The links I provided really spell out all the stages that a couple needs to go thru, all the issues that could possibly need to be dealt with as you open a mono relationship. It's great youve both dealt already with how to feel sexual towards others w/o jealousy, now youve just got the next step of actually acting on it.

But it's not cool at all that he lets his gfs diss you.

Alexandra

11-28-2009, 02:10 AM

Wow....

Um...

A lot of assumptions here, redpepper.

First off, thank you for your kind concerns :)

Anyway, I am left feeling very concerned about all you say Alexandra. You say that you and your husband have had loving relationships before yet have never had sex with anyone that has come into your life in the secondary kind of way. You have said that the women your husband choices have treated you badly and you haven't really objected unless it's in your home.

I didn't say that they treat me "badly", and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

They tend to be cocky and disrespectful, to be sure, but I am in charge in my own home. When we are out and about, I don't feel that I have any jurisdiction (after all, they are independent individuals, in public). And actually, it doesn't bother me a bit when it's in public. I am strong and amazing, I shine and their light doesn't obscure mine. Let them have their moment.

I should probably say at this point that L is a bit famous, respected and admired for the creative work that he does. He is a public figure and I don't feel that he belongs to me in any way. Part of who and what he is, is a public person. This has always been the case, and I have always "shared" him with his public. Sharing him - his attentions - with others is normal. More than that, other people (men and women) feel amazing when they spend time with him, and that's one of his beautiful traits. I don't have any desire to curtail or hamper that.

Some of the people who want, need, to experience this sense of being amazing are shy, awkward, needy etc. And when it's a woman who is these things, one that L finds attractive, who makes him feel protective and adored... well, then they start to feel Special and Chosen. And then when they feel Special, they start to think they might be More Special than the wife.

I am aware that their cocky disrespect towards me is often born out of their own feelings of inadequacy or low self esteem. And L makes them feel amazing!

I don't want to take that away from them! That's pretty cool; isn't it? That L can help them to feel good about themself?

I don't begrudge that, why should I? His ability to give people an awareness of themselves as extraordinary is a gift to be shared. And who needs it more than people who feel badly about themselves?! How selfish would I be to disallow those people from experiencing what L can give them?!

The issue - the problem - is that they carry that attitude into my home, and that L enables and allows that to happen. And yes, it is (as YGirl said) unacceptable. This is an ongoing issue between us, something that we have discussed and argued, every time it comes up. I do not cow-tow to it, I bring it up every singe time it happens. He is stubborn, and he obviously gets something out of it, something that is worth risking my happiness for.

This is an ongoing conversation between us.

If this thing with your T becomes sexual then it would follow to reason that your L would want to start having sex with the women he sees....

Major RED FLAGS with that one!

Sex will exacerbate them treating you badly and him not doing anything about it.

Yes, I have considered this. I agree that if he were to have sex with these type of woman, the issues of respect / disrespect would be greatly increased. And I see that there is potential for damage.

So I have to curtail and dampen what is available to me (the love and honour I receive from T) because L's potential lovers may further disrespect me? That seems backward, and horribly reductive....

I think you have some major things to deal with here. I am really quite concerned that if you don't deal with them you will end up being very damaged by all this.

I agree that it's a major issue, it has been for some time. I have told him that he has dishonoured me, and he acknowledges this.

However, it is not constant and ongoing. He is a good man, he loves me, he is good for me. In the main, he is respectful and honourable.

I don't usually advocate therapy as I tend to think that people can work things out for themselves with a bit of guidance and good supporting friends, but this is huge to me as it is teetering on the edge of abuse. I suggest marriage counseling.

I've had plenty of counseling and therapy myself over the years. I am well, sane, balanced, happy, able to take care of myself. I've made an appointment to see a counselor next week to talk all this through.

As for marriage counseling... Hm... Well, I did mention it in passing to L, but the suggestion got lost in the wind. He is emotionally intelligent, but he's not a talker. I know him well (after 20 years!) and I have learned that he works best when he allows thoughts and ideas to sit deep down inside for a while, he mulls them over beneath the horizon, ferments them, until he arrives at a new place. He is able to take on new ideas and concept, but slowly, sometimes very slowly.

I am by nature patient, and he is by nature stubborn (similar traits, if truth be told).

He won't agree to couple counseling, I don't think, although it is something that I may bring up again.

We've come through some really tough stuff together in the past, and I really do believe that we can do so this time.

I would love to say that you need to stand up for yourself etc blah blah blah I am sure Ygirl and others will say just that, but this is a pattern it sounds like and could very well run deep. It sounds like both of you need some better ways of dealing with people in your lives and not letting them trample over you and run the show.

Heh... I'm not getting trampled, I promise :)

Yes, it is a deep pattern, it predates our relationship, for both of us. I have done deep work on myself around the question "Why do I allow this?" and - as I said up there ^^ somewhere - it's part of an ongoing discussion between L and me.

There is something rather sadistic in this whole thing. He could very well just be a bit in denial that these women are bitches to you or he could be getting off on it.

That's pretty strong, and a huge assumption.

They're not "bitches" to me - from where did you get that impression??

They are disrespectful in quite subtle ways. When I bring it up with L, he tells me I am being petty (although if I explain it in terms he can understand, he does accept and ackowledge my view...). When I describe it to my women friends, they agree that I'm being disrespected.

I'd agree that it's odd, and not right. And yes, he is in denial that they are disrespectful towards me. But I disagree that it's sadistic in any way. I really don't think he's getting off on it. I mean, I've given this some thought since I read your post cos it's a completely novel idea to me, and I'm not getting any sense that he's getting a kick out of it. I think he's just... well, ignorant.

If he is truly concerned that his girlfriends treat you badly and doesn't know what to do then I suggest that you have lots of things to communicate about and I would stop everything to reconnect in this way before moving ahead with T, but really I think that should of already happened and the problem should be resolved not repeated... it sounds like it never was....

Well I agree with you that things need to be resolved before any new situation is introduced. But that's an ideal. As it has happened, T has re-entered my life at this time, not in six months from now.

L has recently realised (or taken on board...) that his current favourite, J, is indeed a problem for me. He has changed his policy with her. Perhaps because T is now on the scene and the stakes have changed; perhaps he has realised that her behaviour is problematic for me and he now wants to do something about that... I don't know.

It seems the bigger issue here is not T, but the relationship between you and your husband. All the rest is the same usual stuff that people who are trying to get a poly life going face and that all comes out in the wash one way or another when a balanced primary relationship is running smoothly.

Yes, this makes sense to me. Of course the bigger issue is my relationship with L, I recognise that. And I accept that all the other stuff is pretty standard, and I'm learning how that works as I go along, and with the help of everyone's guidance and help on this board, for which I am grateful.

I knew before this point that any attempt at polyamory would bring up and highlight any callouses, glitches, swampy patches etc. in my primary relationship. The point is that I'm not afraid to deal with those things. And the problem is that it looks as if L is reluctant or resistant to doing so.

Alexandra

11-28-2009, 02:17 AM

Now that I have heard more about your relationship dynamic it is clear to me that my initial thoughts were not based an accurate assumptions and I apologize for that.

My immediate assumptions based on your original post? You went on line (probably Facebook lol) reconnected with an old flame, started an online affair, needed to justify it or find a way to work it into your life and found poly because it suited your needs.

I had no idea that your relationship invovled very close "friendships" on both your parts. I would not have responded the way I did in light of that info. Sorry for letting my mind run free :(

Because I am not familiar with this type of dynamic I don't think I know how to give advice in this. RP and friends have a much more worldly view and experience base to draw on.

Peace and Love
Mono

No problem :)

I did think perhaps you'd assumed a friends reunited scenario or somesuch. I'm as cynical as you are about such things ;)

Actually, I've found your input very helpful, thank you.

Alexandra

11-28-2009, 02:31 AM

Wow, yeah, this added info does change things a bit. First of all, you 2 already seem kinda poly in some ways, with these intense emotional relationships you both have w others, "loving" others you call bfs and gfs.

It does feel that way to me. As I said, when I first heard about polyamory, it just made sense to me.

It's very disturbing he keeps choosing women who are dissing you. wtf?

I couldnt bear that.

Yes, I have asked this question: of myself, and of L too. What do you get from them? Why are they attractive to you?

I think it's this:

L and I were friends for almost five years before we became a couple. So we've known each other a good long while

When we first met I was barely out of my teens (he's 7 years older). I was kooky, odd, fucked up. I was needy, low self esteem etc.

He was attracted to me, to my odd kookiness. I got better, I'm sane and well and happy now. So I'm no longer the odd fuck up I was when he first knew me. But he still has a hankering for that type of girl.

The girls he tends to choose are in some senses a version of the earlier me. It's flattering in a way!

He looked out for me, looked after me, helped me find my way to health, made me feel amazing.... and I think perhaps he is doing all that for these other girls. The difference is that I was young at the time, and I grew up, got better, and these gfs of his are still the way I was then.

My heart goes out to them, truly. I recognise myself in many of them. And truth be told, I was probably capable of the disrespect thing when I was younger too.

I am not anti-therapy as redpepper is. My ex and I had counseling several times in our lives for this or that reason in our long relationship; it did help us get over certain speedbumps and deal w putting to rest certain things from our childhoods. (We never made poly work tho... but that's irrelevant here.)

The links I provided really spell out all the stages that a couple needs to go thru, all the issues that could possibly need to be dealt with as you open a mono relationship. It's great youve both dealt already with how to feel sexual towards others w/o jealousy, now youve just got the next step of actually acting on it.

But it's not cool at all that he lets his gfs diss you.

Thanks Magdlyn. I intend to look at those links when I have the chance.

And I agree that it's not cool that his gfs diss me. Thanks

NeonKaos

11-28-2009, 03:55 PM

Some of the people who want, need, to experience this sense of being amazing are shy, awkward, needy etc. And when it's a woman who is these things, one that L finds attractive, who makes him feel protective and adored... well, then they start to feel Special and Chosen. And then when they feel Special, they start to think they might be More Special than the wife.

I am aware that their cocky disrespect towards me is often born out of their own feelings of inadequacy or low self esteem. And L makes them feel amazing!

I don't want to take that away from them! That's pretty cool; isn't it? That L can help them to feel good about themself?

I don't begrudge that, why should I? His ability to give people an awareness of themselves as extraordinary is a gift to be shared. And who needs it more than people who feel badly about themselves?! How selfish would I be to disallow those people from experiencing what L can give them?!

I'm sorry, BUT -

This is perhaps the most WTF thing I've heard in a very long time.

Your husband has groupies whom he helps with their self-esteem issues by letting them disrespect you? But since you have overcome YOUR self-esteem issues, this "free therapy" he gives to these girls is OK with you in public, but not in your own home.

OK, um, different strokes for different folks, I guess.

After reading everything, you have my permission to go have sex with your boyfriend. I can't see how that could possibly make things any weirder than they already are now.

Alexandra

11-28-2009, 05:23 PM

I'm sorry, BUT -

This is perhaps the most WTF thing I've heard in a very long time.

Your husband has groupies whom he helps with their self-esteem issues by letting them disrespect you, his wife? But since you have overcome YOUR self-esteem issues, this "free therapy" he gives to these girls is OK with you in public, but not in your own home.

OK. OK. Um, different strokes for different folks, I guess.

After reading everything, you have my permission to go have sex with your boyfriend. I can't see how that could possibly make things any weirder than they already are now.

WTF yourself, YGirl.

How very judgmental of you. You have no idea how my life works.

Every relationship is a mystery to those who are not involved. I've answered questions here as clearly and honestly as I can. I've given information out because I am trying to find a way to understand and work with a new and challenging situation in my life. And on the basis of a couple of posts, you've decided that you understand and disapprove of the way things are in my life.

Really, WTF right back atcha.

I understand of course that you're free to come to your own conclusions. But I don't appreciate this certainty you have that things are weird and fucked up for me.

And wow, gee, thanks for your "permission" to have sex with my boyfriend :rolleyes:

Alexandra

11-28-2009, 05:28 PM

He doesn't "let" them disrespect me. He truly does not see that they are doing so. When I point it out to him, he can kinda see and understand what I'm saying but he thinks it's an issue between me and them, not all of us.

And as I said before, I think that if we can come to a mutually arrived at agreement that we are in a polyamorous relationship, then within that context, we may be better able to address and resolve these issues.

I'm not looking for guidance about my relationship with L. I was asking for guidance about how to help L understand and accept this idea of polyamory.

I don't even know why I'm trying to clarify this, since you've already made up your mind.

ETA Has this touched a nerve for you or something YGirl? It seems to bother you a lot more than it bothers me.

NeonKaos

11-28-2009, 06:53 PM

And on the basis of a couple of posts, you've decided that you understand and disapprove of the way things are in my life.

Actually, I DON'T understand. That's what the meaning of "WTF" is all about in the first place.

And, (re: "disapprove") I SAID "different strokes for different folks".

However, I do think you are doing a lot of back-pedaling after Redpepper and Magdlyn posted.

ETA Has this touched a nerve for you or something YGirl?

No, thank you.

It seems to bother you a lot more than it bothers me.

I'm not one of your husband's groupies.

There was no hidden agenda, no dual meaning behind my last post whatsoever. I just gave you my two cents and chose not to sugar-coat it. I stand by whatever I said before. I will go one step further and say that it all sounds pretty co-dependent to me (note the use of E-Prime here and elsewhere). I have decided not to engage in a debate with you about whether my life is more or less "WTF" than yours because that is simply a red-herring.

I'll say once again that I find it a bizarre dynamic for someone to appreciate being disrespected because it is therapeutic. It seems obvious that you enjoy it, yet you say you have a problem with it. The distinction between whether it goes on in your home or not is aesthetic, IMO, since you say your husband doesn't even wish to recognize a problem or engage in understanding of why it is YOUR problem. I am paraphrasing, but your original words are up there if anyone would like to pick apart the minutiae of any discrepancies.

I have not violated and of the rules of the forum by what I said to you. I am not at all surprised that you received it way you did. In fact, I would have been surprised had it been any other way. I make a point to be as blunt as possible and have been told by others that it is appreciated. Of course I am prepared for the way I came across to be perceived as harsh and "judgemental", but if it is working out for you, it shouldn't matter what other people think. It makes no difference to ME what you do with yourself.

If you know yourself and what works for you and what makes you tick as well as you describe in your writing, it seems that you know the answers to what you need to do, deep down in your gut, and do not need strangers on an internet forum to validate that. You wrote enough that you have already given yourself the answer(s) and advice you need.

AutumnalTone

11-28-2009, 07:12 PM

Some of the people who want, need, to experience this sense of being amazing are shy, awkward, needy etc. And when it's a woman who is these things, one that L finds attractive, who makes him feel protective and adored... well, then they start to feel Special and Chosen. And then when they feel Special, they start to think they might be More Special than the wife.

I am aware that their cocky disrespect towards me is often born out of their own feelings of inadequacy or low self esteem. And L makes them feel amazing!

I don't want to take that away from them! That's pretty cool; isn't it? That L can help them to feel good about themself?

I don't begrudge that, why should I? His ability to give people an awareness of themselves as extraordinary is a gift to be shared. And who needs it more than people who feel badly about themselves?! How selfish would I be to disallow those people from experiencing what L can give them?!

The issue - the problem - is that they carry that attitude into my home, and that L enables and allows that to happen.

I'd say that's amazingly dysfunctional. That you're uncomfortable with the disrespect shown you shows that whatever you gain from that whole dynamic is outweighed by the negative elements. I figure whenever you're truly disenchanted by whatever it is you gain from allowing this dynamic to continue, you'll finally take action to end it.

I just don't see it ending while you're busy defending it.

redpepper

11-28-2009, 11:06 PM

L and I were friends for almost five years before we became a couple. So we've known each other a good long while

When we first met I was barely out of my teens (he's 7 years older). I was kooky, odd, fucked up. I was needy, low self esteem etc.

He was attracted to me, to my odd kookiness. I got better, I'm sane and well and happy now. So I'm no longer the odd fuck up I was when he first knew me. But he still has a hankering for that type of girl.

The girls he tends to choose are in some senses a version of the earlier me. It's flattering in a way!

He looked out for me, looked after me, helped me find my way to health, made me feel amazing.... and I think perhaps he is doing all that for these other girls. The difference is that I was young at the time, and I grew up, got better, and these gfs of his are still the way I was then.

My heart goes out to them, truly. I recognise myself in many of them. And truth be told, I was probably capable of the disrespect thing when I was younger too.

I had a thought. As it doesn't seem that he "gets off" on the fact that they disrespect you then perhaps you could be helpful to them too. After all, you have been where they are and can show them, tell them with your own story what can be accomplished in life and how they can gain their own self esteem for themselves rather on the backs of others.

MonoVCPHG

11-28-2009, 11:13 PM

I had a thought. As it doesn't seem that he "gets off" on the fact that they disrespect you then perhaps you could be helpful to them too. After all, you have been where they are and can show them, tell them with your own story what can be accomplished in life and how they can gain their own self esteem for themselves rather on the backs of others.

I love the positive aproach to a negative situation! That's a great way to promote growth Lilo :)

redpepper

11-28-2009, 11:46 PM

It sounds to me like this man did a good job rescuing you. You must love him very much for doing that. It sounds like he encompassed you with his appreciation for women like you and showed you how you too could appreciate yourself. That is lovely and very caring, but might suggest that it is time to take the show on the road and get out of this co-dependency.

This thread has turned into a concern for your primary relationship because those who have chosen to write to you are concerned that you have not taken all the steps to being self actualized. Part of that is that you seemingly have no problem with these women thinking they are better than you when it comes to your husband. No one should EVER think they are better than you. I am still concerned by this. Your husband is right. It really isn't to do with him and everything to do with you. However he is not being helpful and proactive in helping you out of these situations. Maybe because he doesn't want you to be self actualized as you won't be the woman he fell in love with anymore. Therefore he may fear that he won't be attracted to you anymore.

As a self actualized individual I would NEVER let anyone think that it is okay that they treat me the way you describe. Especially when they are friends/lovers of my husband. I can understand that people have esteem issues, I can understand that they think hes the "bees-knees", I can understand that they are learning from him, but they have absolutely no right to think they are in anyway entitled to him over me. I'm afraid that they would be pulled aside and quickly put in their place.

My husband and I have negotiated veto power for such occasions. If there is someone in our lives that the other has a problem with then we reserve the right to ask that they not be a part of our lives. There is time to this however, I would not simply demand this right, a process would have to ensue whereby I would ask (he usually sees it at the same time I do anyway) that he talk to them first and let them know he is not pleased with what they have said or their actions and this is what the consequence will be if it happens again. Usually it means that I will talk to them, or we both will.

Usually, at this point in our relationship, we see together what has happened or been said and address it immediately in the moment and without hesitation. We are very practiced with this by now. It takes time. We are used to calling each other on stuff and those that are close to us.

I am amazed that you have this dynamic and find it fascinating. It's almost D/s (domination/submission) to me. That is why I wondered if he gets a charge out of the women treating you the way they do. People spend years developing that in some SM relationships. The difference being that they have an arrangement that is acceptable to both of them, I am unsure that it is acceptable to you.

It's a shame he won't go to therapy with you. This is NOT your issue alone and you can do all the therapy you want, but if this is an issue that is keeping you from reaching your full potential then it will become evident and eventually it will be necessary for him to go if there is a hope in hell of the two of you staying together. His unwillingness makes me wonder if he is fearful or just doesn't want you to reach your potential because he doesn't dig women that have.

I wonder if you can take yourself out of the realm of whatever makes your husband such a celebrity and see this for what it is, two human beings trying to make their relationship work. It makes no difference what he does that makes him acknowledged, as a human right, you are entitled to respect. You deserve it as a fellow human being. If all of you were sitting in my living room right now and as I don't know who your husband is and in what way he is famous, I would expect him to treat you with dignity and respect. I would hope that you would ask for that and demand that. It's nothing to do with how much you love each other, or what is going on for others around you, it's a right.

redpepper

11-28-2009, 11:54 PM

I'm not one of your husband's groupies.

There was no hidden agenda, no dual meaning behind my last post whatsoever. I just gave you my two cents and chose not to sugar-coat it. I stand by whatever I said before. I will go one step further and say that it all sounds pretty co-dependent to me (note the use of E-Prime here and elsewhere). I have decided not to engage in a debate with you about whether my life is more or less "WTF" than yours because that is simply a red-herring.

I'll say once again that I find it a bizarre dynamic for someone to appreciate being disrespected because it is therapeutic. It seems obvious that you enjoy it, yet you say you have a problem with it. The distinction between whether it goes on in your home or not is aesthetic, IMO, since you say your husband doesn't even wish to recognize a problem or engage in understanding of why it is YOUR problem. I am paraphrasing, but your original words are up there if anyone would like to pick apart the minutiae of any discrepancies.

I have not violated and of the rules of the forum by what I said to you. I am not at all surprised that you received it way you did. In fact, I would have been surprised had it been any other way. I make a point to be as blunt as possible and have been told by others that it is appreciated. Of course I am prepared for the way I came across to be perceived as harsh and "judgemental", but if it is working out for you, it shouldn't matter what other people think. It makes no difference to ME what you do with yourself.

If you know yourself and what works for you and what makes you tick as well as you describe in your writing, it seems that you know the answers to what you need to do, deep down in your gut, and do not need strangers on an internet forum to validate that. You wrote enough that you have already given yourself the answer(s) and advice you need.

Ygirl and I quite often see eye to eye on these things, with two distinct ways of "talking." I find that Ygirl gets to the point in a different way and can be very blunt. She does however, in my experience, get that way out of concern for others and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes she evokes some strong emotions for people, and while they can evoke anger, I believe she does it with a bit of tongue in cheek and as a way to make people look at their shit from an un-sugar coated approach.

Good for you for giving her a good yelling at. I was beginning to think that you didn't have that in you and that you let people walk over you. I'm glad to see that my assumption was wrong :D Nice to see some strong woman in you, because by all accounts your situation doesn't indicate its in you, just yet.

Marcelo

11-29-2009, 05:25 PM

As Freud taught, there is no such thing as a joke... I chided him [T] for it and he excused himself saying "Sorry, that was a Bloke thing" or something similar. Actually, he is very respectful and generous about L. He has never pressured me or made me feel in any way as if L is a difficulty for him. When I ask him about this ability, he says "He's your rock, your root, you love him, you're with him. Loving you is about wanting you to have what you want, what makes you happy, and L makes you happy". He is not greedy or needy about my time, energy or attentions.

Unless I missed it, Alexandra, you haven't said whether T's situation is symmetrical with your own. That is, is T married or involved with a full-time partner? If so, how is T handling the disclosure issue with his own partner?

On the other hand, if T is not as tightly attached to a partner as you are, then there's an asymmetry. When a relationship is pre-sexual, it sounds reasonable to tell a woman, 'I'm not greedy or needy about your time, energy or attentions.' But, if and when the situation changes to sexual intimacy, a man who doesn't have a partner of his own to spend time with, is likely to become highly focused on you, meaning, wanting more of your time for himself.

In my case, the new relationship energy from corresponding with a distant, married girlfriend since June has gotten channeled into being physically closer to my wife -- hugs every day, more frequent sex. But, if I didn't have a wife that I love to channel this new energy, I think I would now be overly obsessed with my girlfriend, to the point of wanting to take her away from her husband and have her with me all the time.

My point being, symmetry (both parties having an established partner to rely on) can be a stabilising factor; whereas asymmetry in terms of existing partners can lead to unbalanced needs between the two new lovers.

I hope you and T continue to enjoy the love you've found. It has certainly transformed my life to find another woman, outside my marriage, that I feel so emotionally connected with.

NeonKaos

11-29-2009, 07:43 PM

Good for you for giving her a good yelling at.

Aw dang.. love you too! :o

Alexandra

11-29-2009, 09:34 PM

Unless I missed it, Alexandra, you haven't said whether T's situation is symmetrical with your own. That is, is T married or involved with a full-time partner? If so, how is T handling the disclosure issue with his own partner?

On the other hand, if T is not as tightly attached to a partner as you are, then there's an asymmetry. When a relationship is pre-sexual, it sounds reasonable to tell a woman, 'I'm not greedy or needy about your time, energy or attentions.' But, if and when the situation changes to sexual intimacy, a man who doesn't have a partner of his own to spend time with, is likely to become highly focused on you, meaning, wanting more of your time for himself.

In my case, the new relationship energy from corresponding with a distant, married girlfriend since June has gotten channeled into being physically closer to my wife -- hugs every day, more frequent sex. But, if I didn't have a wife that I love to channel this new energy, I think I would now be overly obsessed with my girlfriend, to the point of wanting to take her away from her husband and have her with me all the time.

My point being, symmetry (both parties having an established partner to rely on) can be a stabilising factor; whereas asymmetry in terms of existing partners can lead to unbalanced needs between the two new lovers.

I hope you and T continue to enjoy the love you've found. It has certainly transformed my life to find another woman, outside my marriage, that I feel so emotionally connected with.

Thank you Marcelo, this is useful food for thought.

After the drubbing I received earlier, I am now chary of giving any more information.

However, I can say that it has helped to clarify some of my thinking and experience.

I will say this: T has not said to me 'I'm not greedy or needy about your time, energy or attentions.' He has consistently demonstrated it by his behaviour.

Alexandra

11-29-2009, 09:36 PM

Ygirl and I quite often see eye to eye on these things, with two distinct ways of "talking." I find that Ygirl gets to the point in a different way and can be very blunt. She does however, in my experience, get that way out of concern for others and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Sometimes she evokes some strong emotions for people, and while they can evoke anger, I believe she does it with a bit of tongue in cheek and as a way to make people look at their shit from an un-sugar coated approach.

Good for you for giving her a good yelling at. I was beginning to think that you didn't have that in you and that you let people walk over you. I'm glad to see that my assumption was wrong :D Nice to see some strong woman in you, because by all accounts your situation doesn't indicate its in you, just yet.

I am plenty strong enough. I'm known for it.

I didn't feel that YGirl was concerned for me, it just felt as if she was having a go.

As for looking at my shit - yeah, I'm able to do that, known for that as well.

Marcelo

11-29-2009, 10:31 PM

Thank you Marcelo, this is useful food for thought.

After the drubbing I received earlier, I am now chary of giving any more information.

However, I can say that it has helped to clarify some of my thinking and experience.

I will say this: T has not said to me 'I'm not greedy or needy about your time, energy or attentions.' He has consistently demonstrated it by his behaviour.

Wow, sorry that it felt like a drubbing. I didn't mean to pry. I do hope his circumstances will be conducive to his idyllic-sounding willingness to accommodate your situation.

Because, although most comments focused on your relationship with your husband, I presume that your relationship with T is equally important to you, and has its own internal dynamics which are also significant.

In my own experience, though my secondary and I are both married, she feels under-appreciated by her husband, whereas my wife is very loving and I really have no complaints. Even this minor asymmetry has led to some insecurities, deriving from her wondering, 'Do I need him more than he needs me?' My answer to her is 'no,' but at a distance, it can be easy to misinterpret and imagine otherwise.

Alexandra

11-29-2009, 10:31 PM

redpepper, thank you for taking the time to write your long post.

It sounds to me like this man did a good job rescuing you. ...snip.... That is lovely and very caring, but might suggest that it is time to take the show on the road and get out of this co-dependency.

Yes, I do love him. Not just because he was able to see in me the potential for healing, but because he is patient and loving and all kinds of other good things.

It's kind of irritating that it's been decided that my relationship is based on co-dependency. I'm not going to get into this here. Suffice to say that, while we do of course have issues (who doesn't), we are not dysfunctional. I can't prove it to you, you'll just have to accept that I know what my relationship is like better than you guys do.

This thread has turned into a concern for your primary relationship...snip... have not taken all the steps to being self actualized.

Don't you see that this is a huge and judgmental assumption on your part?

While I appreciate the concern, I have not felt supported by this concern. To the contrary, I've felt scolded and judged.

If by self actualised you mean:

"the desire for self-fulfillment, namely the tendency for the individual to become actualized in what he is potentially. This tendency might be phrased as the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming"

...then I am the living embodiment if the concept! :) And L has supported me unstintingly in this journey. Again, I can't prove it, you'll just have to take my word for it.

Part of that is that you seemingly have no problem with these women thinking they are better than you when it comes to your husband. No one should EVER think they are better than you. I am still concerned by this.

But nowhere have I suggested that I'm happy or okay with these women's behaviour! I agreed with YGirl way back when she first said "it's unacceptable".

I do have a problem with their behaviour, and it is an issue between L and me. Nor am I happy that L doesn't pull them up for it. I have said this several times.

I do not think they are better than I am, in their own right nor in relation to L. I think they're kooky fuck-ups, with unresolved issues, I think they are rude and need to learn some manners. I think they are needy, self absorbed and ridiculously short sighted.

Your husband is right. ...snip... Therefore he may fear that he won't be attracted to you anymore.

This is one of the ongoing conversations that L and I have. It refers not only to his girlfriends, but also to our own private relationship. When I said way back earlier "It's an interesting dynamic and I have given it much thought", this is what I was referring to.

I find it really annoying that you have all apparently decided that I seem to have no insight, no curiosity, no ability to think things through, no emotional intelligence. What do you think we've been doing for 20 years, L and I, if not building, negotiating, developing, evolving, nurturing our relationship??

Perhaps - wow, here's a thought... - perhaps L has some issues around women and his own feelings of adequacy, and I am helping him to resolve those? Perhaps we work together with patience and empathy, maybe? Maybe he's stubborn and finds it hard to shift (oh, y'know, I think I did mention this trait when I was asking for guidance about how to help him to shift towards acceptance of polyamory...) and I'm by nature patient and prepared to work at his pace (oh wow, I think I did mention my patience as well, way back up there somewhere, in that same context).

As a self actualized individual I would NEVER let anyone think that it is okay that they treat me the way you describe. ...snip... I'm afraid that they would be pulled aside and quickly put in their place.

Once again, I don't let them think it's okay. They do NOT have any rights over me, of course they don't. Where have I implied that I think that they do?? Please do point this out to me because I really don't know where I gave that impression.

If they behave ill towards me when we are in public, I ignore them. We are in public, and I'm not interested in making them feel shitty. If they behave ill towards me in my own home, I make it clear that I will not engage with them unless and until they behave better. I pull them up, I comment as calmly as I can. I have conversations with them when appropriate. Some, over the years, have become good friends. Some have fallen away but later come to me to apologise. And some continue to behave badly. So they never become friends, and they fall out fo favour with L too, sooner or later.

The issue is more about L's inability or reluctance to put in place appropriate boundaries and maintain them. And, once again I say, for the third time, I am hoping that if we can arrive at an acknowledged position of polyamory, we will be better able to resolve this issue.

My husband and I have negotiated veto power for such occasions. If there is someone in our lives that the other has a problem with then we reserve the right to ask that they not be a part of our lives. ...snip...We are very practiced with this by now. It takes time. We are used to calling each other on stuff and those that are close to us.

Good for you, I'm glad to know this dynamic can work. And this is exactly why I have come to this forum to ask for guidance and input from experienced people to bring L to a point where he can accept and acknowledge that we are (and I think have for some time been) having a polyamorous relationship. The sooner we can arrive at such a point, the sooner we can openly discuss and negotiate ground rules.

I am amazed that you have this dynamic and find it fascinating. ...snip... The difference being that they have an arrangement that is acceptable to both of them, I am unsure that it is acceptable to you.

Um, okay... Weird... There is course a push-pull in our relationship, isn't that true for all relationships? Sometimes / in some areas, I'm in charge, and sometimes / in some areas he's in charge. I never thought of us in D/s terms... I'll give it some thought.

It's a shame he won't go to therapy with you...snip... His unwillingness makes me wonder if he is fearful or just doesn't want you to reach your potential because he doesn't dig women that have.

If he was really not into me being well, we'd have finished a long time ago.

I agree, there is an issue about how he likes these kooky chicks and enables them to be rude to me. Yes, this is an issue. No, I don't like it.

And yes, it is an issue we both have to address. I love him enough to want to work through it with him, with us.

I don't know how I can make this any more clear.

I wonder if you can take yourself out of the realm of whatever makes your husband such a celebrity and see this for what it is, two human beings trying to make their relationship work.

As I said, he's only a bit famous. It's not a day-in-day-out thing. Most of the time we are normal, standard, run of the mill people. We

It makes no difference what he does that makes him acknowledged, as a human right, you are entitled to respect. You deserve it as a fellow human being. If all of you were sitting in my living room right now and as I don't know who your husband is and in what way he is famous, I would expect him to treat you with dignity and respect.

And so he does! Friends and acquaintances often comment on how lovely we are to each other! One of the reasons he's so popular with these kookies is that he is such a great, patient, loving, kind, gentle, thoughtful person. He made me breakfast in bed this morning, he came to the market with me this afternoon and carried the bags. Just now he came upstairs and brought me a cup of tea, he did the washing up after supper..... The other evening when we were entertaining friends he sat on the floor by my feet and kept my wine glass topped up... When we're out he holds the door open for me, if I arrive after he does he always comes to greet me and buy me a drink, he is publicly affectionate, in private he is attentive and loving...My goodness! I have no complaints.

I'm really sorry that I've given any impression to the contrary, that was a disservice to him.

And no, this is not backpeddling. Please show me where I have given the impression that he is disrespectful to me.

The issue - once again - is that he allows his girlfriends to behave disrespectfully to me. No, it's not even that, it's not that he allows them, it's that he doesn't actively step in and actively stop them from doing so.

I would hope that you would ask for that and demand that. It's nothing to do with how much you love each other, or what is going on for others around you, it's a right.

Absolutely! In fact it's more than a right, it should be a given.

Alexandra

11-29-2009, 10:33 PM

I had a thought. As it doesn't seem that he "gets off" on the fact that they disrespect you then perhaps you could be helpful to them too. After all, you have been where they are and can show them, tell them with your own story what can be accomplished in life and how they can gain their own self esteem for themselves rather on the backs of others.

Yes, these chicks have often responded very well to what I am able to offer them. And these are the ones who have gone on to become friends.

The ones who seem to have issues with their own mothers are those who have a problem with me.

Alexandra

11-29-2009, 10:37 PM

Wow, sorry that it felt like a drubbing. I didn't mean to pry. I do hope his circumstances will be conducive to his idyllic-sounding willingness to accommodate your situation.

Because, although most comments focused on your relationship with your husband, I presume that your relationship with T is equally important to you, and has its own internal dynamics which are also significant.

In my own experience, though my secondary and I are both married, she feels under-appreciated by her husband, whereas my wife is very loving and I really have no complaints. Even this minor asymmetry has led to some insecurities, deriving from her wondering, 'Do I need him more than he needs me?' My answer to her is 'no,' but at a distance, it can be easy to misinterpret and imagine otherwise.

Your post didn't feel like a drubbing Marcelo :) It was earlier input that felt that way. Nor did it feel like prying.

It is certainly an interesting angle, and one that I will consider. Thank you.

NeonKaos

11-29-2009, 11:54 PM

Alexandra, like I said in my last post in this thread, you have answered your questions far better than any of us ever could.

But I will hone in on one specific thing. If the ONLY ISSUE is how you are treated by these females in your own home, and if you are as much of a spitfire as you claim to be and have demonstrated that you can be to us, then why don't you just say to them "Hey look, you're in MY HOME. If you can't treat me with the respect and dignity that you would expect to receive in YOUR home, then there's the door. Shape up or ship out." Period. Non-negotiable.

I fail to see why you require your husband to do this FOR you. The only thing I can think of is that he pays all the bills and supports you financially so you don't feel that it is your place to criticize his "guests".

Furthermore, I'd wager that he probably HAS had sex with some of his girlfriends and that is why he wished that you had had an affair instead of trying to be forthcoming with regards to your boyfriend - it would level the playing field, so to speak. But you are right; I couldn't POSSIBLY know that (especially if YOU don't know it). What I do know however, is that some of the most controlling and hypocritical people in history have also been among the most charming and charismatic. So if it seems offensive and improper that I'm suggesting your husband might have a darker side that you're only beginning to uncover, then that is how it will have to seem. If it seems like I'm "having a go" at you, then that too is unfortunate; I can see how it is easier to be pissed at me for giving you my opinion than it is to confront someone you've lived with for so long and have to deal with every day.

You say those girls remind you of yourself when you were their age; well, I'm a few years YOUNGER than you and your CURRENT situation reminds me of myself 15 or 20 years ago or so. Of course I only know you from what you have written here, but go back and look, it is a fair chunk of change, even though I am SURE you have barely even scratched the surface.

Believe me, I have nothing to gain from being "nasty" to you. I am not one of those girls that your husband makes "feel amazing". I wish you would stand up to them (and by extension, to your husband), the way you just stood up to me and the other folks on this forum. If you want to think of me as your enemy just because I gave you my raw anonymous opinion on an internet message forum, that's also your choice to make. You don't owe anyone an explanation, and no one owes you the answers that you want to hear.

Have a good life.

redpepper

11-30-2009, 04:03 AM

Thank you for your long reply and for breaking down everything I said in order to explain. I understand where you are coming from more now and think I understand. I understand also that you wanted to know about adding T to your life, not what this thread became. For that I am sorry and if you desire to get back on track with that, I will respectfully leave the topic alone as I sense that you have had enough of it.

It seems to me that you think that everything is under control with L except for these women he chooses to be girlfriends with. I go back to my earlier post and say the same thing.... if you start sleeping with T then he will want the same thing and I suspect that the whole "thing" that you dislike about his relationship with these woman will be exacerbated. It seems that needs working on first in my opinion.

Thanks again for explaining so much. I'm sorry it wasn't what you wanted to hear, but I hope some of it challenged you enough to think about it all as it seems a lot of us were concerned or we wouldn't of bothered writing at all.

Good luck, I hope it all goes well and you reach your desired out come in harming none and helping all.

jkelly

07-06-2010, 09:46 PM

Hm, this thread got weird. I'm not sure why; lots of people post here with what sound to me like much more... challenging situations than this.

L believes that T has an agenda, and is "dishonourable" for "messing with another man's lady". T pointed out (half joking) that since he knew me first and has never stopped loving me, it is in fact L that is the interloper

I feel no remorse or guilt at all, but I do feel the pain that L is experiencing, and I hate that I am causing him pain.

Well, T does have an agenda -- a romantic relationship with you.

I don't see how honour has anything to do with it, and I don't know why you would feel remorseful or guilty. I'd go so far as to say that you're not really "causing L pain". He's experiencing jealousy as a response to the situation that the three of you find yourselves in, but it isn't as if your falling in love with an old flame was a plot to make him feel bad, or that you have some sort of absolute control over his emotions.

L either can't or won't talk about it. It's become the elephant in the room.

How can I negotiate this, how can I make it easier for L?

I assume that L is acting the way he is because he feels that his relationship with you is threatened and he wants the situation to go away. I think that the key insight here for L is that his behaviour right now is damaging your relationship in a way that's worse than the consequences of your being with T would (likely) be. You have this important thing in your life that's confusing and exciting, and your husband should be your best ally in helping you figure out what's going to work well for all of you. Instead he's doing things that create distance (and likely resentment).

There are a lot of poly- resources out there on coping with jealousy, but you can't do it for him. But it may help inspire him to do the work if the goal is a better relationship with you, as opposed to the goal being his being okay with your relationhip with T.

Ariakas

07-06-2010, 09:53 PM

this thread is also mucho oldo and I don't think alexandra has been on here in quite some time