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  #21  
Old 05-16-2011, 08:20 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Originally Posted by Derbylicious View Post
Women shouldn't HAVE to worry about how they dress and shouldn't HAVE to be concerned about walking alone at night (or hell, even during the day). Unfortunately that's not the world we live in. Sexual assault is a reality in our world. As such the police have a duty to warn women of the potential danger.
Well said Derby. Teaching people appropriate behaviour is a very important part of our early development but it isn't going to have an affect on people who are not bound by social norms or respect for other people. There are sick people out there...they are not bound by what "we should" be able to do. That is why it is up to us to be our own first line of defence.
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2011, 12:36 AM
Eloise Eloise is offline
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http://www.jacksonkatz.com/

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/wmcd.html

I like this guy. Of course not agreeing with every single little point, but good stuff.
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  #23  
Old 05-17-2011, 02:34 AM
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Default The ethics of on-duty cops

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The flip side of the issue of police telling women that they are basically asking for rape by dressing like "sluts" is that it gives the impression that if a woman dresses conservatively that she is not at risk of sexual assault. This can lead to a false sense of security and a lack of vigilance to her surroundings.
Interesting you mentioned 'police.'

Here's a very recent article pertaining to two on-duty Chicago cops having consentual sex with an intoxicated woman, but then it got out of hand at her apartment - which led to a sexual assault case. There's no denying they offered her a ride home because she was walking alone at night near Cubs Wrigley Stadium. There's no denying she slept with each of them, and there's no denying a neighbor saw one of them running out half naked but forgot to take his cell phone with him.

Does that make her a slut? Some of the media says yes (based on how they word their stories.)

Does she have a sexual assault case? The neighbor reported she was running from her apartment, screaming. Plus, the cops have been stripped of their powers for having participated in sexual acts on-duty...

Just a few posing questions - just a continuance of this interesting topic...

Chicago SunTimes Newspaper:
http://www.suntimes.com/5330762-417/...ing-woman.html
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  #24  
Old 05-17-2011, 08:53 AM
Aisling Aisling is offline
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What a woman wears is not the central issue in this instance, it is more the greater communities view of rape, guilt, and provocation.

If a woman is out drinking with friends, wearing close fitting or revealing clothing and gets raped she first asks herself. Am I going to get blamed for this? I was a. drinking and b. wearing revealing clothing therefore as stated in an earlier post will people assume I was asking for it? (feel free to replace any of the above with such situations as walking home alone, enjoying myself, being a woman etc)

It is this thought pattern that is the dangerous one as all rape victims are firstly judged on who they are rather than what happened to them. It means that rapes are under reported as many women who drink and/or have had casual sexual encounters in the past are likely to persue the matter knowing that alot of people will think 'she was asking for it'.

A woman may attempt to attract the attention of the other sex, but this in no way means that her rights should be taken away. It is not ok to say a woman in this situation is any less brutalised or degraded by what happened than if she was wearing conservative clothing.

Slutwalk is attempting to say that it doesn't matter what a woman wears, if her choice is taken away it is crime and the punishment should not be lessened or her pain be less important on the basis of what she is wearing.

Personally, this happened to me, I enjoyed sex and on a night out with friends met a friend of a friend and I went home with him. It was consentual in the begining but when he started hurting me and wouldn't let me leave it was not. I struggled, i asked him to stop but I was hurting and scared so I didn't fight as much as I should of. Instead I retreated hoping he would finish quickly and leave.

I never reported it because I had been drinking and it had started out consentual, I knew my history would come into and I didn't want to put myself on trial to prove his guilt. The few friends I told didn't understand, I got told but he was 'hot' so it couldn't be that bad and he had been in a bad place at the time. If my friends couldn't understand why would anyone else?

For months I was scared to be around male friends, jumping or crying if they tried to touch me. I hid from everyone went on antidepressants and anti anxiety meds and could not leave the house by myself. Over the last 5 years things slowly got better, I got of medication, can leave the house by myself and I have rediscovered some of my previous self worth.

But I still find it difficult to meet strange men and to this day I do not drink to excess and only if I have a 'guardian' to stay with at all times. And for the longest time I fought with myself because 'I must have deserved it'.

For all those who consider what a woman wears dictates the severity of the crime. What would someone think if a poly woman with multiple male partners is raped by a stranger (or a friend), is she tarred with the same brush as someone in tight clothing? She too is advertising that she is sexually available and capable of servicing a mans needs.

This is why rape is a horrible crime, it severly affects the victim, who for the most part is judged before the attackers guilt is assertained. It is the mind set of the community that needs to change, there will always be predators who will attack regardless of social status, clothing, appearance, sexual orientation etc. But it is how their crime is judged and how the victim is treated that can be changed.

Sorry - end rant
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  #25  
Old 05-17-2011, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
There are sick people out there...
And those sick people are the ones that need to be educated, and rehabilitated, moreso than teaching women to defend themselves against them. Society needs to focus on healing those that would do harm, and changing attitudes that perpetuate the thinking that allows for it. No matter what a woman wears, or how she conducts herself, no man should think he has a right to overpower her and take what he wants. It is the same as any kind of violence. Just because someone says things that make me mad does not mean I should hit them.
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  #26  
Old 05-17-2011, 12:36 PM
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And those sick people are the ones that need to be educated, and rehabilitated, moreso than teaching women to defend themselves against them. Society needs to focus on healing those that would do harm, and changing attitudes that perpetuate the thinking that allows for it. No matter what a woman wears, or how she conducts herself, no man should think he has a right to overpower her and take what he wants. It is the same as any kind of violence. Just because someone says things that make me mad does not mean I should hit them.
Do you have any concrete answers on how to go about finding these men before they offend and how to educate and rehabilitate them? Of couse prevention by taking away the risk is the best possible answer I'm just having a really hard time seeing how it's at all possible.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:48 PM
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Do you have any concrete answers on how to go about finding these men before they offend and how to educate and rehabilitate them? Of couse prevention by taking away the risk is the best possible answer I'm just having a really hard time seeing how it's at all possible.
Oh geez, I am not talking about finding specific people and rehabbing them. I am talking about fixing societal attitudes that create such twisted thinking. We need to instill a reverence for women and humanity in people from a young age, so that no male person ever thinks they can rape, so that sex and sexuality is not mixed up with ideas of good and bad, so that equality among men and women is such a way of life across the board that no one feels the need to forcibly exert power over another, and to stop shaming, medicating, and warehousing those who would have mental imbalances and who would potentially do harm. The problem is endemic in society and it requires a total global shift in attitude and perspective. Some ways to change that is to stand up against what has been allowed to go on thus far.

Also, I never said women should not learn self-defense. It's just that that does nothing to solve the kernel of the problem.
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  #28  
Old 05-17-2011, 03:06 PM
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Just because someone says things that make me mad does not mean I should hit them.
I'm ok with that
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  #29  
Old 05-17-2011, 07:10 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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I saw the heading and being the forever student had to learn more. I find it wildly funny that the organizers thought this would solve their problem. 1) I would be surprised if all police personnel believe slutty attire fuel rape attacks. My guess alcohol plays a much larger role. Most likely a couple of out of touch opinionated old timer treated someone poorly which started this snowball rolling. 2) the people who would perpetrate such a horrible crime are not going to respond to a protest march.... in fact they may go to spot their next victim. 3) do the women who participated in the walk really want to be known or called sluts ..... I could see young college guys going to see who's easy at 2am. Its like the bra burning in the 60's or 70's .....all they got out of it where saggy ugly boobs....no one else cared....it was regarded as a joke. Now I can't turn on the tv with out see some miracle bra or ah bra infomercial. That could be there target market aging women's lib-ers.

I agree with mono in heeding the warnings of law enforcement. I'm sure the cops would tell a car load of rich white kid in a new BMW that going to Harlem to drink with the brothers is also a huge mistake. Or a biker bar... they can be tricky sometimes as well. An old cop friend of mind told me many years ago nothing really good happens after midnight...especially around bars.

I wonder if New Orleans has a much higher number of rapes during mardi gras?.....outside of the increase in population for the event. The sicko's might see boob flashing as slutty behavior and a invitation.
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  #30  
Old 05-17-2011, 09:51 PM
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Sorry - end rant
You do not need to apologize for telling your story... You deserve no shame for what was done to you, and it is important that those of us who have not and cannot experience this to hear from those who have. I appreciate hearing a first hand perspective on the matter, and I can only (attempt to) imagine how victim blaming (even of the sort that is taking place in this thread) impacts you more than those of us who never have (and never can) experience what you have gone through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aisling View Post
For all those who consider what a woman wears dictates the severity of the crime. What would someone think if a poly woman with multiple male partners is raped by a stranger (or a friend), is she tarred with the same brush as someone in tight clothing? She too is advertising that she is sexually available and capable of servicing a mans needs.
This is a fantastic point. Being poly is yet another marginalized position in society (being a woman is the other one we are discussing here). People in these positions are easily (and arbitrarily) stripped of their rights, rights that they are entitled to by virtue of being human.

Honestly, I have been quite surprised reading the responses here.... I had thought (hoped?) that more of those on a message board about polyamoury (something I see as progressive and inclusive) would have critically examined the myths and biases we are fed every day by mainstream culture/corporate media/etc... I am disappointed to hear so many of these common and damaging beliefs reiterated here, by people I can tell (from the little I have read on this board) are well intentioned and intelligent.


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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
That is why it is up to us to be our own first line of defence.
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
again it becomes a matter of knowing what can trigger some one to target us and avoid it.
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
but if a person is triggered to rape by a specific stimulus I think it behooves us to avoid that stimulus.
These are just three instances among many, in which you repeatedly de-gender the conversation. There is no "us" who is targeted by "one," and there is no "we" avoiding the "stimulus." You and I are not included in the folks who are told what to wear and how to behave. Again, the difference between things like helmets, and other things that include everybody equally, and this discussion we are having, is that sexual assault and victim blaming is largely an issue for women and not men. Women are the "us" and the "we," and the "one" you speak of is men (I'll say it again so we don't digress into the 'men get raped too' debate: not all survivors are women and not all perpetrators are men... but a huge majority are).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
When I look at this topic I do usually create a very specific rapist as an example..one that preys on a certain look and may not reflect statistical evidence. If the statistical information supports the idea that how women dress is not a stimulus then that should be just as wide spread as any other information. I don't see any personal attack at all

I think we do need to teach boys and young men to treat women with respect..and shit like popular music videos and a lot of objectifying porn are not helping the matter. I also think girls should be taught to be smart about understanding that not all boys/men are taught effectively. I think girls and young women do need to take some responsibility for ignoring this fact.
THERE IS NO STIMULUS. You acknowledge that there is NO evidence to support that how a woman dresses has an effect on whether or not she is raped (nor does behavior, age, whether she's had sex before, etc), and then in the same breath perpetuate the myth that if women are "smart" and understand that if they take certain precautions they are less likely to get raped. The later belief is completely refuted by the former fact. There is no fact that women and girls are allegedly ignoring. They can be and are raped regardless of what they do/wear/etc. It makes NO SENSE, understanding this fact, to put any responsibility on them to be "smart" about the way they are in the world... in fact, well worse than not making sense, the placement of this (however small bit of) responsibility on victims shifts responsibility from perpetrators, reinforcing their belief that they can get away with mistreating other people, thereby allowing them to remain comfortable in a society that condones their behavior , at best complicity, and at worst actively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
...dress like a slut, expect to be treated like a slut.
My immediate response to this is absolute disgust. However well intentioned you may be, the cultural context in which you say this renders the statement extremely violent. Do you know how this very statement and ones like it are used against rape victims?

Beyond that response, I wonder: what is a 'slut,' anyway? Can you define it for me? And then, what in that definition renders a 'slut' an acceptable target of violence? If a woman dresses like she 'wants sex,' does she not still get to choose with whom, where, when, and how? Shouldn't we all ALWAYS be granted this right? Nothing any women (or anybody else, for that matter) can do or wear - potentially baring some extreme exceptions, if you're of the opinion that people should get what they deserve... for example in the case of mass murderers or something.... fyi, I'm not - gives any of us the right to deny her of this choice.
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Last edited by Isaac; 05-17-2011 at 09:55 PM.
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