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  #21  
Old 05-12-2011, 02:29 AM
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arggh... still not satisfied with it...

M is absolutely confident that I am not leaving her, absolutely confident that I truly love her. It is a mutual feeling. I know this in our relationship. I know this when R is here.

M is comfortable in my presence, sitting on a barstool only in panties, grumpy and hating the bags under her eyes as she plucks hair from her chin.

M is uncomfortable being naked with R in dim light.

She loves R and wants to be as confident and comfortable with their love as she is with ours. She is scared shitless that she will screw it up.

Really I am supposed to envy where we were twelve years ago?
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  #22  
Old 05-12-2011, 09:53 AM
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Yesterdays ramble about dealing with jealously frustrates me. I don't think I have answered the question at all. I find what we have wonderful and I want it. I will let it have to steep and see what words come to me. I will probably have to answer it with fiction, sometimes I work better that way expressing myself.

For example I was once asked what I would and wouldn't do for love. I ended up writing a story titled "a cup of coffee" Here you go....
.................................................. .................................................

It had rained harder than this several times during his life but Charlie had no compunction to remember those times at this moment. At this moment it was more than enough to be on different sides of a glass from the rain. The times when he still could get inside at all were worth more than all the money in his pockets, even if that amount was a bit less than two dollars.

He could see Rosie visibly cringe when he sat down; he knew she was soft enough to let him stay just as he knew that if her boss stopped by she would be in a bit of trouble over his presence. Even her pain was worth the brief stop in the diner, the brief pause of being outside. Even as she cringed he dropped his handful of change and asked for coffee and ice water. Rosie half smiled and half frowned and whispered for him not to stay too long this time.

Charlie poured in as much cream and sugar as the cup would hold without spilling, he knew he needed as much calcium and as many calories as he could possibly stretch out of his change, this was the only way to get it when he was surviving on the generosity of strangers. After stirring the concoction till it was an even color he used the spoon to fish an ice cube out of the glass of water and let if float on top of the light brown mixture.

He hated cool coffee but the last few years had been murder on his teeth and the shock of hot coffee against exposed nerves would cause too much pain to stay conscious. He and pain had come to an agreement but it was a compromise and he was aware of the price of not holding up his end of that agreement. Watching the ice rapidly melt a memory of his own grandfather came to his mind, doing much the same as he smoked cigarette after cigarette and talked forever in a diner much like this one. He had been very young then and bored and restless as he waited for his grandfather to bring the talking to end. Now at somewhere near sixty five he treasured every moment in a diner and silently apologized to his long dead ancestor and wished that there was someone there to talk to.

Most of all he wished that his wife was there, she had always had something to say. She could even say things without ever speaking, her smile and her eyes and her hand holding his had always been better at talking to his soul then her words. But she would never say anything again. It had been just a month after he had retired that they both sat down at the doctor’s office and heard the diagnosis. It was cancer but it was treatable and she had many more years to live they were told. He had been hopeful but later that night as she held his hand and smiled as she looked into his eyes she said “Please kill me now” that hope had died. But he had never been able to grant her wish, it was his last failure to the woman he had disappointed many times in the past.

The doctor had been right, she did have several more years, but those years weren’t really living. There had been drugs and chemicals and radiation to try to keep the cancer at bay. It weakened her, it starved her, and it robbed her of her hair. She withered, her bones showed and she finally lost all of her teeth. She looked like she had been lifted from an old sepia picture of a concentration camp. Still she would smile and look into his eyes as she held his hand.

They started removing parts of her, at first it was reproductive organs, those weren’t really necessary anymore anyway, and then it was a part of her stomach and her diet changed to liquids then changed to I.V.’s. A simple mosquito bite on an exposed ankle took advantage of her reduced immunity and they had to remove the left leg from the knee down. By the time they did that she was no longer in a private room, before she could recover and heal she was no longer in a private hospital and he was in the guest room of their only child.

His insurance had been a good plan but lifetime limits are lifetime limits he was told by a young man in a nice suit. He found then that everything that was important in his life lay dying in a bed and that everything else might just be enough to save her if even for a bit. He sold everything that he could, he borrowed against his own life insurance the day the insurance company refused to renew her policy. He emptied his retirement accounts and stole the money had they had set aside for their grandchildren’s education. In the end he even stole his daughter in law’s jewelry and hawked it for a partial payment on the huge bill the hospital presented him. That day his son asked him to not come back behind his own tears and he began spending days with his wife and nights with the homeless.

Eventually the routine ended, as he entered her room at the start of visiting hours and found it empty; as empty as the cup in his hands. He held the cup out to Rosie who glanced at the clock and shook her head, he knew he would have to leave soon before the manager came in; he gave her a smile of thanks and headed to the back. He figured he had enough time to clean up a bit with soggy paper towels and dry his socks under the blower. Then before he headed back to the rain he would pause and look into his own eyes in the mirror, pretending that they were her eyes; that she was still talking to him with her heart, he would once again apologize to her for not granting her the wish of death of her choosing at the time she desired. He would apologize, but he knew that every thing else that he had lost, even the contact of his son was worth the eight extra months of seeing her eyes look at him, he hated himself for the pain and agony it had cost her but he knew that she knew how much her love was worth to him, and she would forgive him the pain it cost to give it.

Charlie stood and prepared to go back to the rain.
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  #23  
Old 05-12-2011, 05:50 PM
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bitterborn,
I read your first few posts on this thread and all I can say is W.O.W...
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  #24  
Old 05-12-2011, 06:09 PM
Magdalena Magdalena is offline
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So what you are saying is that your love of seeing her happy overrides the pain felt by seeing her love all over another guy? That is some powerful love. I suppose I have the same to a different degree, however he has yet to meet someone that has knocked his socks off yet. Even so, I have watched him be enamored with someone, and the glint in his eye for someone else sends a rush of mixed emotions.

I am not sure at this point that I could stand watching him fall deeply in love. Then again I never thought I would be able to stand what I have up to this point.

Mags
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  #25  
Old 05-12-2011, 06:36 PM
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I recommend reading all of Vodkafan's posts. He and his wife have reached an amazing place in their poly journey.

He has said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by vodkafan View Post
The fact is that I did this because my wife is worth sharing. I would not do it for anyone else.
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"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #26  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:03 PM
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bitterborn bitterborn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
So what you are saying is that your love of seeing her happy overrides the pain felt by seeing her love all over another guy? That is some powerful love. I suppose I have the same to a different degree, however he has yet to meet someone that has knocked his socks off yet. Even so, I have watched him be enamored with someone, and the glint in his eye for someone else sends a rush of mixed emotions.
I really never managed to say anything, I did list a lot of things that could be negative and made me sound petty. That is not what I wanted to leave you or anyone else with.

I have let is steep all day and I think I have found a way to explain it. (I hope so anyway, and I am sorry M if you took any of that negatively I really didn't mean it that way)

Let's look at some couples.

Couple one is elderly shopping at the store, they walk slowly always holding hands, He keeps nodding whenever she says something. They both pretend he hears her.

Couple two is at the park, he is on one knee holding a ring. She is jumping up and down nodding her head yes because she can't force words out of her mouth.

Couple three is sitting on the porch, watching grandchildren play, she reaches over and touches him, he smiles. They have a conversation without saying anything.

Couple four is a woman running, bursting with love to the arms of the man she hasn't seen in a week.

They are all visions of love, all mushy ( M uses that word to describe me a lot) all beautiful. It warms my heart to think of them, I can totally envision myself and M in any of those scenarios. I can do that because I am in love with her. I am fairly sure that you can see yourself and your SO in the same scenarios.

The problem comes when you see your SO and another person in that scene. Suddenly what is beautiful between two unknown people and what is beautiful between you and your SO, is now ugly, now unjust, not right, not beautiful.

But the action didn't change, the motives didn't change, the feelings between those two people didn't change. The only thing that changed was that I (or you) were not a participant with our SO. Really the only thing that changed was our perception of rightness or fairness.

I am confident in my relationship with M. She has promised to wipe my ass when I can no longer do so and I believe her. I know that what she feels for R does not change her love for me or that promise.

If she grabs my ass and whispers something raunchy in my ear while we are in a checkout line. I will be thrilled and it will be perfectly alright because she is doing it to the man she loves.

To be fair, to allow that her and R's love is authentic and genuine. I need to change my vocabulary from "the man she loves" to "ONE OF THE MEN she loves" It's perfectly alright, and thrilling for her to grab the ass of the man she loves, regardless of which one of us it is.

Love, those visions, those actions, those motions, no matter which scenario you envision; they don't hurt until you are not on the receiving end. It's kind of selfish really. Yes I get annoyed, yes I get hurt, all three of us do. For me, usually it is because I am putting meaning behind actions, I am making myself a victim, all because two people I care deeply for are expressing their love for each other. They aren't trying to send me any message other than that they know I accept them, and they trust me with their love.

These negative feelings are real, but they are usually born from my own selfish view. To deal with them I look for and usually find an alternative viewpoint.
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  #27  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:27 PM
Magdalena Magdalena is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterborn View Post
I really never managed to say anything, I did list a lot of things that could be negative and made me sound petty. That is not what I wanted to leave you or anyone else with.
Trust me, I do not think you sound petty at all. This is what makes your writings so amazing, I am just trying to understand how to do what you do.

Thank you for your time explaining things, and your deep insight. Everything you say makes sense, I would love to see you debate Dr. Phil.
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  #28  
Old 05-13-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdalena View Post
, I would love to see you debate Dr. Phil.
Not me, I am not a fan of the man. I am at my worst when I jump to conclusions based on a single statement, I am as bad as him when I assign a single negative reason to an action.

I find I do much better when I have time to look at myself and the situations I find myself in, sort out my feelings and then calmly discuss them. The good Dr passes judgement based on what society feels, assigns labels and gives a path back to normality.

Society and normality left me behind a long time, I am simply and uniquely me. The labels and disorders he would apply to me, my loves and my friends (probably a lot of people on this forum) would no more help or heal then self flagellation would.

To be fair to him, he has helped people, he is intelligent and well educated. He obviously likes himself and is widely popular. There is a large part of his audience who watch to see the misery and watch him beat up on the miserable. It helps them feel better about them self.

I like who I am, I love where I am, it took me a lifetime to get here. I don't think the good Dr. would like me, my relationship or my life.

That's ok, the feelings mutual.
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  #29  
Old 05-14-2011, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitterborn View Post
...two people I care deeply for are expressing their love for each other. They aren't trying to send me any message other than that they know I accept them, and they trust me with their love.
I love this! To claim it for myself: Butch Cassidy and I know that Sundance accepts us, and we trust him with our love. Oooh, nice way of putting that. It really is a trusting thing, this poly honesty. We've been a V since last October, so it is still pretty new, and Sundance still struggles mightily at times. Butch and I are very respectful of his feelings; we don't flaunt our relationship and actually we don't even say the words "I love you." Butch and Sundance go out for drinks every few weeks, just to keep things real between them. I know there are so many men out there who could not even begin to fathom what they (and you) are doing. I feel so special that they both think I am worth it . I'm sure your M feels the same way. Vodkafan does seem to express similar feelings for his wife, here on the forum. You are both such an inspiration. Truly helps me when the world seems to be saying, "You are crazy to think that this can work." Loving both of them is the only thing that makes any sense. I couldn't imagine quitting either of them. I am so happy and grateful to my men that I don't have to. Sundance has made sacrifices for me in this marriage in order to spare me from making a painful sacrifice. I think THAT is "true love"
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  #30  
Old 05-14-2011, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I love this! To claim it for myself: Butch Cassidy and I know that Sundance accepts us, and we trust him with our love. Oooh, nice way of putting that. It really is a trusting thing, this poly honesty. We've been a V since last October, so it is still pretty new, and Sundance still struggles mightily at times. Butch and I are very respectful of his feelings; we don't flaunt our relationship and actually we don't even say the words "I love you." Butch and Sundance go out for drinks every few weeks, just to keep things real between them. I know there are so many men out there who could not even begin to fathom what they (and you) are doing. I feel so special that they both think I am worth it . I'm sure your M feels the same way. Vodkafan does seem to express similar feelings for his wife, here on the forum. You are both such an inspiration. Truly helps me when the world seems to be saying, "You are crazy to think that this can work." Loving both of them is the only thing that makes any sense. I couldn't imagine quitting either of them. I am so happy and grateful to my men that I don't have to. Sundance has made sacrifices for me in this marriage in order to spare me from making a painful sacrifice. I think THAT is "true love"

You have a beautiful life Carma. That paragraph almost sounds religious

Someone else sacrificing so that another does not have too. It's a two way street, or in the world you and I share at least a three way street. It's not just Vodkafan, Sundance, and I that sacrifice.

It's also Butch, and R, and Ms Vodkafan's OSO. They also have to leave when they don't want to, they have to fall asleep thinking of the one they love sharing a bed with another man. They watch their words, show what they believe to be the proper respect, refrain from saying things that may upset the one you have the longer history with. They even put the toilet seat down when it's not their habit.

It's also you, and M and Ms Vodkafan that sacrifice. I know intimately how hard it can be to love one person, I know how hard it can be to love two. The utter emotional exhaustion, the making time, trying to be equal, the guilt when you are spending time with one as your mind is obsessing on the other.

Doing this... Loving two, or loving one who loves two.... It takes faith in their love, it takes faith in their love's love, for you and M and Ms Vodkafan it takes faith in both loves. It takes faith... that the love is true enough to sacrifice for.
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