French and Polyamory

Different cultures on earth have different approaches to relationships. Even within the same culture, you will see different relationship models as the centuries flow by. Throughout most of the Western world today, serial monogamy seems to be popular, but every now and again, I hear gossip that the French may have a different attitude. But I've never heard anything more than gossip and I've never been to France, nor known any French people.

Is anybody here actually French, or can claim to have a respectable knowledge of French culture? While I understand that everyone in France will have a different approach to relationshipping, my question is directed at what the general French public consensus is on a healthy relationship model. Do most French people prefer monogamy? Do most practice monogamy? Do most grudgingly accept non monogamy as a fact of life or do most embrace it? Is their version of non monogamy more akin to DADT, polyamory or some other agreement?

In summary, without resorting to gossip about one anecdotal story on one French person, is anyone intimately familiar with French culture, who feels in a position to comment on the public (French) perception on relationships?

EDIT: And perhaps as a bonus, why is there a difference? By this I mean that France, Europe and the rest of the "Western countries" all have similar backgrounds. What makes France so different from their neighbours? What is it that makes the French have a different approach to relationshipping?

Interesting! I recently saw something where it was said that "everyone" has a certain disdain for the French, which they invariably reciprocate. I also have seen a couple of French films lately, or films that were about French characters, which involved some sort of polyamory, of sorts. At the least, sexual and romantic affairs, which were presented as not really that scandalous.

"Henry and June" is about a French woman having extramarital relationships with both the husband and wife in another couple.

And "King of Hearts" (a subtitled French movie where a town in WWII is evacuated, because it's going to be blown up by the Germans...but then the inhabitants of an insane asylum get loose and run amok. There is a Scottish soldier who is trying to figure out where is the "blockhouse" to stop the demolition, but he's dealing with a populace of lunatics. One of the main characters keeps offering his "wife" to the "King" and to others. And she offers herself. It's a strangely good movie, rather funny, and at the end the obvious point is that war is crazier than crazy people.)

Then I looked, and found this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mary-duncan/love-french-style_b_4154267.html

And this one, which says that mainly French people find it vulgar to be overt about affairs...
http://www.salon.com/2015/03/12/the_french_are_not_as_cool_with_infidelity_as_you_think/

(So I imagine a lot of DADT hushie hush going on!)

Hi, I've been pointed in the direction of this thread by Shaya because I'm a native French and, Shaya, you seem to say one of the few or possibly the only one here (probably not the only one - frogs can hide in small corners and camouflage quite well).
A disclaimer is needed first: I'm French by birth, mother tongue and native culture, yes, but I've been a nomad for over 20 years and I have lost touch with a lot of the culture even if I go back from time to time.

That said, I'll do my best to contribute.

I haven't read the articles yet, but I'll give my "raw" understanding of it.
France is largely a fantasy for the outside world and not least for the whole love/sex/romance part of it. France as perceived outside is quite cinematographic or fictional. Real France is another matter entirely and a lot more "normal". Or let's say less alien. More expectable.

As I grew up and in my very early adulthood, the general culture was that adultery, hot sex between unmarried couples, flirting and all sorts of playful, consensual, free sex and/or romance was a given. It was portrayed everywhere in films (I challenge you to find a single French film with no infidelity - it's a long standing joke with myself), in novels, in the news, on talk-shows, etc. And every time, the attitude is very "meh. What can you do? People will be people.". To the point that the French didn't think it was that big of a deal when the French President had an extramarital child and owned full responsibility for her.
There is definitely what we call in France a strong "fatalistic" attitude in that country. Not sure how it translates, but basically it's "what has to happen will happen no matter what". So people took the stance to live around it, laugh at it, turn it into works of fiction, explore it that way. (Reminder: this is *all* only my view of things, my own opinion and theory!)

But!
This is not to say French people are happy when it happens to *them*. Then, they're just like any monogamous couple, hurt, pain, anger, cries and arguments follow and just like anyone else, they navigate the storm the best they individually can: break-up, turn a blind eye, create a new workable system for themselves, embrace non-monogamy (discreetly because you don't want to stand out in France), etc.
So it's one thing to include (I wouldn't call it polyamoury personally because France is widely monogamous as a universally imposed relationship system, so whatever is usually portrayed or does happen is in the vast majority of cases cheating the monogamous agreement, so I'll say: ) it's one thing to include infidelity in the far-away background noise, it's another thing entirely to welcome it in one's proverbial "back garden".

Another French myth to bust, which I hunted at: French people are not that free and care-free. As a society, the pressure from others is felt almost everywhere (whether justified or not) and lots of small behaviours are channelled with the urge to fit in the mold - from wearing black clothes a lot because it's a safer guarantee of good style to being a snob with a lot of things in case someone would point out how stupid/undiscerning we are for not seeing that it's totally uncool/untrendy/shouldn't be enjoyed (you can see this behaviour a lot with films, which will be applauded as long as they're confidential and thrashed as soon as they become blockbusters from word of mouth)

In short, on one hand the "doom and gloom" attitude of "it's gonna happen anyway", we might as well play with the idea (I repeat: the idea).
On the other hand "oh but wait. No! Not my partner!"

Oh and side-note, as for the one having the affair, this is just like anywhere in the world, at some point, you're hard pressed not to succumb to the temptation, but there is that difference in France (maybe - I don't have any data to support that) since the culture around has established that there's not much that can be done and everyone does it, then... yes, everyone does do it as a result, indeed!

So yeah, for what it's worth, this is my understanding of it as a French person who grew up there but doesn't really live there anymore.
And I have absolutely no judgement or opinion whether it's bad or not, whether it's working or not.
I sure as hell wish France as a country was less bound by social pressure as a whole though.

Thanks Del, that was very enlightening. I hear you say that affairs happen in a culture that says "people will be people" and you can't stop people from having affairs. I also feel that the culture you describe would have quite a few dont' ask don't tell (DADT) agreements, but I hear you say poly is not that widespread. Finally, I hear you say that despite this relative liberalism you are describing, your experience in France is that the people can still be judgemental and social pressure to fit in is high.

Shaya said:

Thanks Del, that was very enlightening. I hear you say that affairs happen in a culture that says "people will be people" and you can't stop people from having affairs. I also feel that the culture you describe would have quite a few dont' ask don't tell (DADT) agreements

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I did my best but this is really not scientific at all and there must be proper sociology studies out there. I still haven't found the time to read the articles but I will.
Yes, I reckon, DADT is the type of agreement that I heard the most about, when agreement there is. But it's rare to hear about agreements in such matters because the topic is, despite its visibility, pretty taboo when it's on an individual basis (a real couple in real life) and hearing about an agreement would mean that there some form of acceptance of some form of non-monogamy. And this is something that in my days would have lifted eyebrows and opened gossiping mouths.

Shaya said:

I hear you say poly is not that widespread

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I don't really know... I haven't lived there for so long and poly visibility or even poly concepts are only just starting to come out of the closet in rich countries. So I don't know now. When I go back to France, I'm generally in a very rural and traditional context, so new ideas tend to hit the acceptable button even later there. A few years ago, when my uncle decided to leave his family to go live with his 20-year long mistress, it was definitely a big infidelity/betrayal hoo-ha in the family. A poly agreement didn't cross anyone's minds at all, whereas it would "logistically" have been very easy because she lived in the nearby farm!
Social pressure... "What will the neighbours say?" Not only my aunt had to face the old "why am I not enough?" demons with herself, but also she had to face "the village will think I'm not enough/I'm not worth staying with". Monogamy is totally the default. I don't think this is particularly French. Just the overall visibility of the concept of infidelity (not polyamoury, yet, I don't think) in the background, impersonal culture is.

Jan 18, 2014:

President's affair tests French tolerance for paramours

The result? Not much:

"Because of our history, we are less shocked by these scandals. What happened is deplorable but it remains his private life. ... However, it shows lack of elegance and delicateness."

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Hollande... Miterrand... Sarkozy... eh.

(But then, unlike most Unistaters, I actually keep up on news outside of North America. )

Frenchie here

Hey there!

I am french, leaving in France but I don't claim having a societal view on that matter so my reply is mostly my own narrow view. Also, I come from a small city, never lived in a big one even thought i moved quite often.

First, even thought France look very small regarding US size, there is a big difference between country side and big cities and I guess also among big cities themselves (no, France is not only Paris )

I think cheating is quite common here. Maybe with DADT agreements but I suspect it is more without agreements at all. In fact, i feel like we, french people, are a lot more in appearences (how we look like from outside) than about being true.
To my impression, polyamory is not common because it is too different from what society expect from you: be in the norms, do whatever you want if you don't claim you are doing it.
I also feel like we are a society where couple relationship and family is the norm and choosing to be single or not wanting kids is still a bit "out of the box". To be more precise, the assumption is that we are monogamous (at least for love feelings). So you might be attracted by someone also but it means that you are lacking of something in your relationship, maybe he/she is not a good partner for you. Specially if it is romantic feelings you develop.

Regarding the president Hollande affair, I think for quite a lot of people, it was not our business. Just do the job, I don't care about your private life.

I wish my written english would be better so I could develop more but I hope it contributes a bit to your reflection Shaya

Your post made a lot of sense and your English is very good, lafeelicite.

About what you said, with the President's affair. I felt the same way when our Bill Clinton, years ago, was caught in an affair with Monica Lewinski. I was very annoyed that our media was going on and on about the details. I don't need to know those things. That is between him and his wife and his mistress to figure out, and I never wanted to know about it. I don't even want to think about that man having "sexual relations" with anyone! I don't think it's important when it comes to how he does his job.

I think in America though, going back very very far, there is too much expectation for political leaders to be moral leaders. What religion our president is, still kind of matters, and it used to matter even more. (Now people would be upset if he was Muslim, and before people were fussy about if he was Catholic or Protestant.) There are too many things where some people think there should be laws to say if it's ok or not ok. And maybe instead it should just be none of the government's business. Especially about sex, relationships, families and marriage. If no one is being hurt then we don't need a law about it, and it should not be anybody's business what the President is doing. Too much thinking that if our leaders say something is ok, or they give an example of doing it, maybe all of our children will look up to them and then they'll all do that same thing. Well, humans are not like that. We could have a gay president and all of our children would not suddenly turn gay. So WHO CARES?

I am a little sad to hear that French culture demands so much conformity, even if it's not honest or genuine. It is something I love about SOME cities in America, that we love variety (some of us do at least) and encourage people to express who they are, especially if that is something unusual. I wish that thinking were more widespread here and in other places in the world.

Sounds a bit like rural or small town America. Do what you will, but god forbid you get caught. Appearance is everything. The very people railing against you are probably doing it themselves, but they need to condemn for appearance sake.

Spork said:

What religion our president is, still kind of matters

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This is a good point actually: France has been fiercely secular as a state since the French Revolution and various laws have reinforced this important aspect of the culture since then. Which means religion is always a private matter in France (of course less and less so these days where extremists on all sides try to stir people into hating each other, but this is true worldwide, unfortunately). Which also means that quite a few things are seen as being private matter and do not influence toooo much the public sphere. So for example, Clinton's affair having such consequences in the US politics was seen as something that would never happen in France. And indeed, no one gave much of a f&#k about Mitterrand having an extramarital family while being president.

Spork said:

We could have a gay president and all of our children would not suddenly turn gay.

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And other example, Paris' mayor from 2001 to 2014 was gay.

But yes, appearance is still very heavy in France as you say, Vinsanity, and conformity is sadly way too present in French everyday life.
With the internet, open information and more urban people (cities being stereotypically hubs of education and diversity), things shift slightly towards more acceptance on a lot of topics (despite the efforts of extremists, but how long for...)

Of course I did not get into, in my post, the disgusting hypocrisy of how elements of our culture would scream about immoral behavior from CERTAIN presidents, and give CERTAIN OTHER presidents a pass on being gross, consent violating perverts (*coughtrumpcough*) but I find it hard to even talk about that, so...

Yeah.



It's not even about appearances here. It's about people choosing to believe and see and hear whatever they want, and ignore anything else, I think.

Del said:

This is a good point actually: France has been fiercely secular as a state since the French Revolution and various laws have reinforced this important aspect of the culture since then. Which means religion is always a private matter in France ..

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Remember that the French revolution was possible only because the American revolution pre-dated it. Much about yours was premised on ours, separation of church and state being just one aspect. In other words, you got that from us.

That said, it's one thing to lawfully separate church and state, it's another to actually elect government officials of minority religions. When the US elected a Catholic, it was a huge, big deal - not because there's any law against it, but because the success of Kennedy required wide spread social acceptance of a minority to represent us - a Christian minority at that, so it was just a first step for us. Same as in the US, French government is secular, but I'm curious how many French presidents have been a minority religion. Any Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or Atheists in the mix? It's one thing to have laws on the books that don't prohibit minorities to run for office, it's quite another to actually elect them. Kudos to Paris.

Er... Ok.

Del said:

Er... Ok.

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I'm not quite sure what this means, but my post was speaking to your inference that the French don't care about their president's religion because the government is secular. My post was to say that secular government and acceptance of religious minority are two very different things. To my knowledge, no minority of any kind has been elected president in France. Which pertains to Spork's point that in the US, we expect our political leaders to be moral leaders, even though there are no personal morality laws on the books in the US (that pertain to the jobs of elected officials.) The law and social expectations are different animals.

I'm just trying to give whatever clue I find could be of interest in trying to explain why the image of the French is that of an accepting country when the reality of individual lives is not so much. Some of these clues, like the fact that it's easily accepted in the public sphere because (paradoxically) it's seen as private matter, *could* be explained by the secular and very old and quite enforced separation of state and religion. (EDIT: I mean, you know, I've been away a lot but I did live in France almost half my life and every time there's something about religion or being secular, every time you hear the phrase "religion is no one's business and should be kept at home" - France is a strong believer, much to the harm of cultural minorities, that the nation should be homogeneous outside and anything particular to a group of people should be erased in the public space, hence few regional languages being spoken and I think another aspect that could weigh in the issue at hand).
Now, we can talk history of who started what first and who has a religious motto on their bank notes and who's more racist because they've never elected a minority president and even who's applying their openness to male people of power but never to female people of power, but first, I'm not sure it's helping the question at hand and second, I've only just arrived here, I don't want to step in such murky slippery grounds on day 3, if you can help me out here.

I always thought that French and American ideas took root in unison. But maybe I'm wrong ...

Del said:

I've only just arrived here, I don't want to step in such murky slippery grounds on day 3, if you can help me out here.

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Sorry, Del. We kinda let it fly here sometimes, especially in the tangential discussions, and I forget what it's like to walk in cold to that. Glad you're here.

kdt26417 said:

I always thought that French and American ideas took root in unison. But maybe I'm wrong ...

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Louis XVI was a big financial backer of the American Revolution, but only because he had a mutual enemy with the American patriots, not because he believed in the cause of self rule. Louis XVI was in full swing in France when the American colonies developed and drafted the Declaration of Independence, after which the Revolutionary War raged on for seven more years. The success of the American Colonies definitely inspired and emboldened the French to oust their king in 1792.

FallenAngelina said:

Sorry, Del. We kinda let it fly here sometimes, especially in the tangential discussions, and I forget what it's like to walk in cold to that. Glad you're here.

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Thank you for your understanding and support. I really appreciate it.

FallenAngelina said:

Remember that the French revolution was possible only because the American revolution pre-dated it. Much about yours was premised on ours, separation of church and state being just one aspect. In other words, you got that from us.

That said, it's one thing to lawfully separate church and state, it's another to actually elect government officials of minority religions. When the US elected a Catholic, it was a huge, big deal - not because there's any law against it, but because the success of Kennedy required wide spread social acceptance of a minority to represent us - a Christian minority at that, so it was just a first step for us. Same as in the US, French government is secular, but I'm curious how many French presidents have been a minority religion. Any Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or Atheists in the mix? It's one thing to have laws on the books that don't prohibit minorities to run for office, it's quite another to actually elect them. Kudos to Paris.

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Francois Hollande (2012-2017) was an Atheist. No American could get elected if they came out as an Atheist, despite laws prohibiting religious tests. There is no law prohibiting people from voting based on religious reasons. American politicians exploit that.

When I was looking this up it was very difficult to find any religious preferences for French presidents. There is no wiki article showing religious preferences as there is for American presidents. Such is the difference in our cultures. France is truly secular. America is not. We are only secular in that we can't officially declare a state religion. We have a long way to go before we reach the point where a presidential candidate's religious affiliation is not called into question.