Feeling stuck guys

Hey everyone. It has been a very long time since I have been here, but things are shifting for me and I could use some input.

Bear and I have been together for 21 years, married less than a year after we started dating. We have three kids 19, 9, and 5. I have identified as poly since before we met and was in a prior quad that lasted about 18 months. He has no prior poly experience, but has always been very open minded about it. We were pretty much mono for the first few years but I was always online looking at poly sites and forums, keeping my toes in the pond for when he was ready.

Over the years I have had a couple of very small encounters, one very large intense relationship that ended abruptly because of depression (on the partner's side), and a brief dating relationship. He has been unable to find anyone for himself, which is hard for him as well. Currently neither Bear nor I are involved with anyone.

Bear and I have always had communication issues. I am a more logical left brained person, and he is is an artistic, creative, right brained person. He speaks in sweeping metaphors, and I want details.I like to process. We have spent many hours trying to decipher each other, always ending up feeling like the other person just doesnt get us. We do not share money or a bank account. Money has always been an extremely loaded subject for us, and we avoid it whenever we can.

Bear has also had a very hard time with my being poly. Not the intellectual "you are poly" identity, but the real life issue of how to not feel crushed, abandoned, and unwanted when I spend time with another partner. He acknowledges this, and we have (again) spent many many hours discussing this. He does not know how to get through it, and I do not know how to help him. I have grown resentful of the need to help him at all. After all it has been over 20 years. I feel I have given him plenty of time to figure out how to work this out, and as much as I want to help and be supportive, I am burnt out.

We also have very different love styles. His is Physical Touch, mine is more Quality Time. For me, physical touch is something I DO with a partner, but it is not how I show my love to them. For him, he feels that Touch is Life. Without it he withers and slips into depression. I have some prior triggers around physical touch and at times I am just unable to give it without feeling used and abused. We are right now at such a time. He is struggling, and I am just not able to do this for him without feeling like I am BROKEN...

I feel as though we have come to a natural point in our relationship where we perhaps should just part ways, and accept that we have just been trying to work around our incompatibilities for most of our time together. This breaks my heart because he is a beautiful man, loving and passionate, and the thought that I cannot make it work with such a loving being just kills me. But I also know that I have been keeping myself closed off for many years because it has never been comfortable for him. I choose to not volunteer for things, not participate in social groups or community activities because of this. I constantly worry about how my desire to be more out in the world will affect him.

We talked just the other night, and while we did say some very emotional and heartfelt things, we ended as we always do these days, with "I just dont know what to do." I have already reached out to the therapist we saw two years ago to see if she will see us again. I go back and forth with the realization that he may never find a partner, and if he doesnt, then it will always be stressfull between us. It has never been comfortable for me to seek out poly partners because his reactions are so strong. I am thinking that this may just be the dealbreaker for us, even though we can honestly say that we do love each other in so many ways. He thinks that once he finds a partner for himself that things will shift for him and he will finally "understand". I tell him that I am not sure that will be his experience, but I do wish for him to have a partner as I always have.

I could really use some help sorting out some feelings and issues here. Suggestions for improving communication, or ways to transition to a new form of relationship are all welcome.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts...

willowstar said:

Suggestions for improving communication, or ways to transition to a new form of relationship are all welcome.

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I am close to your husband's age and in the process of separating from a 17 year monogamous marriage that was wonderful in most ways. Poly isn't my identity, but my need for additional/different sexual relationships got stronger and stronger as the years went on. So much for menopause and how it supposedly slows women down sexually. I found the opposite - or maybe it was coincidental, but whatever the cause, I chose to "transition to a new form of relationship," as you say. We are divorcing, not because I asked him to (divorce is his choice,) but because open marriage and polyamory was just not him. He gave it a good shot in our final year, accepting that I had other partners, but he grew sadder and more distant, which was not "us" at all. My experience isn't that we have parted, even though he has moved out. He comes by every other day and ends up visiting with me much more than with the kids, who are teenagers with their own interests. He met a wonderful woman shorty after having moved. I doubt that he could ever have made any kind of headway in a relationship before then because he really is a one woman man. I'm so happy for them and in fact, she will be with us for Thanksgiving. So, he is not poly per se, but he and his girlfriend do feel a welcoming presence in me. My dream for next year is to have my partner(s) join us for Thanksgiving. I'm not there yet in my relationship(s) but for this year, I'm so happy that there will be the three of us adults plus the boys.

My main point: Much of how things proceed have to do with what you bring to the table. I don't think of our divorce as a broken home, but as an expanded family and in order for that to happen, my husband and I needed to break open. Things didn't go down seamlessly and there have been plenty of tears and heartfelt conversations, but overall, my vision of a larger Thanksgiving table is indeed coming to life. So think about what you want going forward. There is so much life ahead and when people proceed with love, all things truly are possible. I never imagined that my conservative, traditional husband would ever be able to be part of my dream, but here we are. When you're clear about what is right for you and you go forward with love in your heart, everybody benefits.

I am sorry you struggle.

I feel as though we have come to a natural point in our relationship where we perhaps should just part ways, and accept that we have just been trying to work around our incompatibilities for most of our time together. This breaks my heart because he is a beautiful man, loving and passionate, and the thought that I cannot make it work with such a loving being just kills me. But I also know that I have been keeping myself closed off for many years because it has never been comfortable for him. I choose to not volunteer for things, not participate in social groups or community activities because of this. I constantly worry about how my desire to be more out in the world will affect him.

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That pops up to me in your post.

• How about you go ahead and volunteer for things?
• And you go ahead and participate in social groups and community activities?

So it is not comfortable for him. That's there growth happens. Just outside the comfort zone. He either grows, and there is no need to part ways. Or he doesn't grow and you go ahead and perhaps part part ways over time.

He does not know how to get through it, and I do not know how to help him. I have grown resentful of the need to help him at all. After all it has been over 20 years. I feel I have given him plenty of time to figure out how to work this out, and as much as I want to help and be supportive, I am burnt out.

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He has to work out his core beliefs on his own or with a therapist. This is not something you CAN help him with.

It seems you have been shrinking yourself and accommodate for many years to help him avoid dealing with stuff. So....stop doing all that. Participate in the world instead. Whether or not he deals with stuff is on him. But at least you stop shrinking yourself. Whether or not you shrinking yourself is on YOU.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

He has to work out his core beliefs on his own or with a therapist. This is not something you CAN help him with.

It seems you have been shrinking yourself and accommodate for many years to help him avoid dealing with stuff. So....stop doing all that.

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Echoing this for you, willowstar.

Self-diminishment in an effort to keep the peace is a clear and strong signal that the ship is way off course. I agree with GG's suggestion that before contemplating separation or remaining together, start by allowing yourself to be much more visible in the world. You can do this right now, starting in small ways and expanding as you get more comfortable. You can remain married for now and let your husband have the feelings that he has. You can love him and have compassion for him without getting caught up in feeling responsible for his fears. Those are his and you actually do a disservice to him by trying to spare him. There's a lot of growth in there for him, if he chooses to explore that. It's not your work to manage his fears. Your work is to be who you are.

Thank you FallenAngelina, what you describe is very much how I wish things could go for us. In our most recent talk, I also brought up the possibility that perhaps us transitioning to more of a secondary type relationship rather than being each other's primary was a possible option. I dont know whether that could even work, but I have been trying to think outside the box to find a solution that works.

And yes I am starting to do more. I just recently volunteered to be on a couple of committees for one of my professional organizations in order to feel more connected to colleagues and my professional community. I definitely need more social input and I am doing what I can to get that for myself. He started going to yoga once a week (which he has not been able to do for the past few weeks, and this is affecting him I think.) But this is really one of the only things he does for himself. He also needs an outlet and sense of connections. But I cant make that happen for him, he needs to do it for himself.

Thanks again!

Galagirl, thank you! Yes I have been telling him for a long time that these issues are his to work out, that I cannot continue to just always adjust my behavior because he is uncomfortable. I have said to him many times that I think he is just mono, and while he is very poly friendly and loves our poly friends and the time we get to spend with them, it is difficult for him to actually do. If he believed he was and we needed to find a way to make a poly/mono relationship work I feel like that would be so much better than this "well I think I could be poly but I just dont know until I try. And I cant try because no one is dating me." That is a very hard place to be.

I kind of feel like setting him free opens him up to just date solo. No heavy "Im married but its ok" dynamic. But setting him free feels so hard and defeating. I hate to lose all of the wonderful things that we do have together.

I am not even trying to pursue finding relationships because it is all so heavy. If I am going to meet someone for coffee, he has to manage his feelings around that. He worries. He is anxious. And he cannot keep himself from showing that to me. So I end up leaving with the full knowledge that it is not really ok with him and that he is struggling. Which just feels shitty.

Thanks for your words. Additional perspectives do help...

Yes I have been telling him for a long time that these issues are his to work out, that I cannot continue to just always adjust my behavior because he is uncomfortable.

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That is correct. It cannot always be about his comfort. Do you follow through and stop adjusting your behavior? Or you adjust one more time?

It sounds like in the past you would adjust one more time and get then get resentful at him rather than at yourself. When you are the one doing the adjusting behavior. You contribute to the "going around in circles" situation by doing that. You could own it and then you could change your own behavior and start participating out in the world. Do something DIFFERENT.

I am glad you are starting to do more of that participating.

I have said to him many times that I think he is just mono, and while he is very poly friendly and loves our poly friends and the time we get to spend with them, it is difficult for him to actually do. If he believed he was and we needed to find a way to make a poly/mono relationship work I feel like that would be so much better than this "well I think I could be poly but I just dont know until I try. And I cant try because no one is dating me." That is a very hard place to be.

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Why is it hard for you?

If you are basically in a de facto "mono-poly" relationship? Could to call it what it is. It is a mono-poly relationship, where he has the option to change his side to poly also. At this time? He chooses NOT to change it. There. That's where it stands.

You could align your behavior accordingly and stop worrying whether or not he poly dates. You could accept he is choosing mono on his side for now and carry on your life as usual.

Do you have this idea that he has to poly date too before you can relax in your poly dating so it is "even" or "fair" or something?

It's already even and fair -- both have the opportunity to see others. He's just not exercising his side right now. That's his business.

Whether he's not exercising it because he doesn't know how or is shy or whatever -- that's all his stuff to work out.

If you are all up in his stuff.... you could stop being all up in it. Give him more space. Accept that some things are "your stuff" and some things are "his stuff" and some things are "our stuff." Discern which is which. Are you willing and able to do that?

If he's dumping it in your lap wanting you to do his work for him -- are you willing and able to say...


...or similar? )

I am not even trying to pursue finding relationships because it is all so heavy. If I am going to meet someone for coffee, he has to manage his feelings around that. He worries. He is anxious. And he cannot keep himself from showing that to me. So I end up leaving with the full knowledge that it is not really ok with him and that he is struggling. Which just feels shitty.

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I mean this kindly, ok?

You need to go out and be with other people and socialize. You cannot be living cooped up. So go. Trust that over time, Bear will get comfortable with it.

So he struggles. And then what? He's not going to die. Neither will you die watching him struggle. This is something you guys have to lean into and stop leaning away from because it is "heavy." How is is supposed to get less heavy without practice?

I think you might need to get more comfortable with (seeing Bear uncomfortable) and being ok with it. What are YOU thinking while you are out that makes it feel shitty? Are you busy in your head telling yourself that you are doing mean things TO him?

Bear needs (to learn to cope with discomfort on his own without overleaning on you.) This requires situations where he IS in fact, uncomfortable. He needs the "learning space" to learn this in. But if you never go out, when will he ever get that learning space?

If you both ultimately want this to get better between you -- you have to take the plunge.

• You have to be willing to provide the learning space and be ok being a little uncomfortable doing that.
• He has to be willing to be in the learning space and figure out his coping mechanisms. He has to be willing to be a little uncomfortable learning those new coping things.

I'm not saying to run out and create discomfort to such a degree that you both implode or explode or damage yourselves. I am saying to talk to your partner about what "comfortable uncomfortable" looks like for each of you. Then pay the price of admission.

If you want to be a better jogger? You have to deal with building up time, distance and speed in the workouts and facing the discomfort of being out of breath, leg cramps, grumpiness, tired, etc. It's the price of admission. You are deliberately stretching beyond your previous jogging ability to grow your capability. You pay the price of some discomfort because you want to be a better, faster jogger.

If you both want for your relationship to get better while accommodating BOTH people's needs? Not just his and not just yours? Talk and agree to pay the price of admission -- come to it with both willing to feel some "comfortable uncomfortable" and stop shying away from it.

Take a risk and see that nothing doom happens. You can BECOME comfortable over time and repeated exposure.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

That is correct. It cannot always be about his comfort. Do you follow through and stop adjusting your behavior? Or you adjust one more time?

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I have been trying to not feed into it when I can. There was always this sense that his feelings were hurt, and I needed to somehow acknowledge that and address that, and perhaps even make up for that. But I have been staying back and telling him that I am not going to apologize for things that I havent done wrong.

In the past, whenever we had an issue like this, we would talk, he would not have a solution and so I would come up with a solution. I would think of "ok, lets make a list of pros and cons" or "maybe lets try this communication style next time". He would never have a solution. So this time, I am refusing to offer solutions. He has none to offer, and so I have none. If he cannot think of at least SOMETHING to try differently, I am not offering that up on a platter for him. He needs to think it through and come up with at least one possible answer.

GalaGirl said:

Why is it hard for you?

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It is hard for me because I am aware that he is home feeling all of this discomfort while I am out having fun. I suppose it is guilt. And the knowledge that he is hurting while I have a good time. It clouds my own experience, and he has said that it hurts him because he feels as though I dont care that he is hurting, that I just want what I want.

GalaGirl said:

Do you have this idea that he has to poly date too before you can relax in your poly dating so it is "even" or "fair" or something?

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Yes, I think I have. At first, it seemed like just jealousy or envy. He is insecure, and he admits that. Doesnt know how not to be. When I had the prior intense relationship (which I had posted some about at the time and is searchable on this site), it was very very difficult for him. That person was a deal-breaker for me. Was NOT giving him up, and he did step up and make the effort, but it was a huge effort and he still had major major trouble with it.

Bear has said that he thinks he will be better if he finds someone for himself. I think it is partially a "hey she has someone, I want someone too" thing. He feels left out, and thinks I get more than he does. Which totally plays into our dynamic of me getting to go out and do things and he does not. I have told him he is responsible for finding his own social activities. (we still have kids age 5 and 9 at home, so we are not able to do many things together unless we pay for a sitter.) I know that these things are childhood triggers for him. I cannot fix those.

GalaGirl said:

If you are all up in his stuff.... you could stop being all up in it. Give him more space. Accept that some things are "your stuff" and some things are "his stuff" and some things are "our stuff." Discern which is which. Are you willing and able to do that?

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I am definitely not all up in his stuff. We are coparenting, living together, talk about the day to day stuff, and nothing else. No sex, very little physical contact because that feels icky to me right now. I have told him that it is unfair for him to expect me to meet his physical needs without making the effort to meet mine, which are more emotional and intellectual. (Example: offer me a massage of my neck because he knows my neck ALWAYS hurts me. Dont expect to get sex in return. Offer just because you know I need it and you love me and want me to feel good.) But I have NO libido or interest in sex right now.

Yes, I think he does want me to do the work for him. Wants me to offer the solution, because I always have. I am staying back and not doing it for him.

GalaGirl said:

I mean this kindly, ok?

You need to go out and be with other people and socialize. You cannot be living cooped up. So go. Trust that over time, Bear will get comfortable with it.

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I do. I am Wiccan and have a coven I meet with about once a month. Close sister friends, and wonderful supports for me. They know we have issues, and I can talk with them. But there are more things I would like to do, and it feels uncomfortable (for me) to take time away from home family time at night or on a weekend. Actually, it feels very much like being a teenager and having to ask your parents if you can go to a party at your friends house.

GalaGirl said:

I think you might need to get more comfortable with (seeing Bear uncomfortable) and being ok with it. What are YOU thinking while you are out that makes it feel shitty? Are you busy in your head telling yourself that you are doing mean things TO him?

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Mostly just feeling as though, if I can go out and have a good time (dinner/movie/sexy time) with another person while he is at home suffering, am I being a good partner to him? Am I being selfish? I think I am internalizing the things he is saying.


What I have discovered is that this prior intense relationship I had was huge for me. This other partner was very much my match intellectually and emotionally as well as physically. Bear knew that to some extent so I dont blame him for having a lot of feelings about what was happening. But I also spent a LOT of time giving him reassurances that I loved him and was not leaving, and I STILL HAVE NOT LEFT HIM! And it was never enough.

What I found in this other relationship was the type of interaction that I really wanted with a partner. He would talk with me, process situations and really talk out all of the possibilities. Gave me lots that I didnt have with Bear. But truthfully Bear gives me things that other partner could not. We have shared spiritual beliefs that I didnt share with other partner. We have children together. Those are connections that are unique to us, but it is still not enough for him to just settle in and BE.

Hi Willow,

I think you and GalaGirl both have the right idea, live your life and let Bear figure out how to live his. Don't try to do that for him. In addition to that, it might be a good idea to start seeing your therapist again.

Just some thoughts,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

kdt26417 said:

Hi Willow,

I think you and GalaGirl both have the right idea, live your life and let Bear figure out how to live his. Don't try to do that for him. In addition to that, it might be a good idea to start seeing your therapist again.

Just some thoughts,
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

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Kevin, thanks! Yes I put in a call to her and we will hopefully be able to work that out. I think at this point we need a translator to help us sort out the communication issues, and maybe guide us through the process of reconciliation or separation.

I struggle with feeling like moving into my own space means leaving him behind.

I have been trying to not feed into it when I can. There was always this sense that his feelings were hurt, and I needed to somehow acknowledge that and address that, and perhaps even make up for that. But I have been staying back and telling him that I am not going to apologize for things that I havent done wrong.

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You do not have to apologize for things that are not your fault.

It is hard for me because I am aware that he is home feeling all of this discomfort while I am out having fun. I suppose it is guilt. And the knowledge that he is hurting while I have a good time. It clouds my own experience, and he has said that it hurts him because he feels as though I dont care that he is hurting, that I just want what I want.

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You can express that you care about him and still go out.

For example, if my kid falls down and scrapes her knee I can say "Ouch! That looks like it hurt. I'm sorry that happened. Do you need a hug and help with washing up and a bandaid before I go to work and you go to school? Or you got it?"

Offering some sympathy is ok. But I didn't push her. And I'm not going to stay home from work over something like that. It's bummer, but it is not an ER trip. I'm also not going to buy her new toys over it. I don't have to "make up" for it. Things just happen in Life. I still expect her to get on with the day and get to school. I still expect me to get on with my day.

If Bear tries to make you responsible for his emotional management? It's ok to offer some sympathy but still put his emotional management firmly put it back in his hands.

If he experiences things like you going out to coffee as emotional abandonment -- I think he needs help from a therapist. You could not help him with that even if you wanted to and the solution is not to shrink your world to match his.

So this time, I am refusing to offer solutions. He has none to offer, and so I have none. If he cannot think of at least SOMETHING to try differently, I am not offering that up on a platter for him. He needs to think it through and come up with at least one possible answer.

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I get the sentiment. Especially after decades of "carrying" him. But if he doesn't know HOW by now, he is still not going to know. Rather than give him zero answers, you could consider giving him two tools and then leave him to figure it out how to use them. Then "play the broken record."

1) Tell him to start seeing a therapist to help him. Does he need help setting up the appointment or can he do it on his own?

2) Tell him to use the NVC inventory. If he cannot think of what he needs and would like to ask for "from a blank page" he could "circle" from that one to give him a start in articulating his needs rather than expecting you to know his needs as if by magic. You cannot be his mind reader and you sound like you want him to either spit it out or leave you be. Not have him moping around you expecting you to drag it out of him or mind reader him.

You sounds like have had it with "passive" relating where you have to carry your end of the stick AND his end.

Mostly just feeling as though, if I can go out and have a good time (dinner/movie/sexy time) with another person while he is at home suffering, am I being a good partner to him? Am I being selfish? I think I am internalizing the things he is saying.

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What ARE the things he is saying?

If you are not spending any time together as a couple -- that part could be true. Do you and Bear have any couple time together? Hire the babysitter if you have to or trade nights with another family or have "in house" dates after the kids are asleep?

IME, people who call me selfish when I meet my own needs first are pissed because THEY are selfish and want me to spend ALL my time attending to them. These are unbalanced places in the see-saw:

• Selfish: mememememe! Always about me and my needs! Screw you and your needs!
• Selfless: themthemthem! Always about them! I neglect me and my needs in favor of attending to them!

The balanced place in the middle is "self full." Where I meet my needs first so I have a full tank of gas, I'm not spread too thin, and I'm not burning out. Then I am free to gift my help to others in helping them meet their needs.

I think if you need to get out to air out and be with other people so you are not always dragged down? That's valid. You need to put your own oxygen mask on first and fill up your gas tank first. You cannot help anyone with anything when you are bone dry.

What I have discovered is that this prior intense relationship I had was huge for me. This other partner was very much my match intellectually and emotionally as well as physically. Bear knew that to some extent so I dont blame him for having a lot of feelings about what was happening. But I also spent a LOT of time giving him reassurances that I loved him and was not leaving, and I STILL HAVE NOT LEFT HIM! And it was never enough.

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Has Bear indicated what would be enough? Does he needs actions rather than words? Or needs words more?

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

If he experiences things like you going out to coffee as emotional abandonment -- I think he needs help from a therapist. You could not help him with that even if you wanted to and the solution is not to shrink your world to match his. Galagirl

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I dont know if he experiences it in exactly this way, but it is definitely threatening for him. It triggers him deeply, and I think it is a sense of loss and also anger that I am getting to go on dates while he is not. But I know that when I am in an actual relationship, yes he does feel abandoned, and he has expressed this lately as well. My response to that is to remind him that he really doesnt want me to "perform" (i.e. snuggle, have sex, etc.) just because he is feeling this way. That is not genuine connection and makes me feel used and is not consensual.

GalaGirl said:

I get the sentiment. Especially after decades of "carrying" him. But if he doesn't know HOW by now, he is still not going to know. Rather than give him zero answers, you could consider giving him two tools and then leave him to figure it out how to use them. Then "play the broken record."

1) Tell him to start seeing a therapist to help him. Does he need help setting up the appointment or can he do it on his own?

2) Tell him to use the NVC inventory. If he cannot think of what he needs and would like to ask for "from a blank page" he could "circle" from that one to give him a start in articulating his needs rather than expecting you to know his needs as if by magic. You cannot be his mind reader and you sound like you want him to either spit it out or leave you be. Not have him moping around you expecting you to drag it out of him or mind reader him.

You sounds like have had it with "passive" relating where you have to carry your end of the stick AND his end. Galagirl

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We have therapist appointment set, and we will see how that goes. He says that the last time we went, he left each time feeling torn and chaotic. I think he would benefit more from solo therapy that is not about me and is more about him and what he wants for himself. But the couples therapy will help us talk about the issues where we are roadblocked.

I have definitely "had it" with this style of relating.

GalaGirl said:

What ARE the things he is saying?

If you are not spending any time together as a couple -- that part could be true. Do you and Bear have any couple time together? Hire the babysitter if you have to or trade nights with another family or have "in house" dates after the kids are asleep? Galagirl

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What he is saying is that it isnt fair that I get date time and he doesnt. I tell him that I have no control over whether he makes connections or if women reach out to him on OKC. I wish that for him. But short of setting him up on a date that is not up to me. If I want to go out, he will remind me of how he doesnt get that time, didnt get to go to yoga, etc. Basically he guilts me. He says I dont give him time away from home, which is bullshit. He goes out every Saturday, whether for yoga or just to "disappear" for a while, and I dont begrudge him that unless we have a family obligation. Weeknights are tougher as he is tired after work and doesnt have much energy to go anywhere.

We have not been getting much date time. We have teen daughter who will stay with the younger ones when she is home from college. But finances are tight so sitters are not usually on the radar. We do sit and watch TV after kids are in bed, but nothing that is really connecting. Just being in the same room, really.

GalaGirl said:

Has Bear indicated what would be enough? Does he needs actions rather than words? Or needs words more? Galagirl

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He is an action person. I am a word person. Of course...

He just says that he thinks he needs a partner to make himself feel better. I have told him that I dont think that will solve the problem, that he feels the way he feels for a reason and he needs to figure that out. Of course, if he and I were getting more physical time together, he would be fine. I told him that I am done with that, not giving him sex for those reasons. I have noticed since early on in our relationship that he can be down, depressed, and irritated, but once we have sex he is happy and relaxed and all is good with the world. He thinks everything is okay as long as we connect that way.

In the past I did do this for him, in order to give him reassurance that I still loved him and desired him. It helped some things but it still didnt really address the fact that he felt pushed aside when I had other partners. I know that many poly people talk about making sure that their partners are getting what they need, but I dont think this is always the best thing. About 6 months after that relationship with the ex-bf began I stopped sleeping with him for a while altogether because I felt like it was just reinforcing the problem, and he was not doing the work to address his feelings. I was feeling quite like a pacifier.

willowstar said:

He just says that he thinks he needs a partner to make himself feel better. I have told him that I dont think that will solve the problem, that he feels the way he feels for a reason and he needs to figure that out.....I felt like it was just reinforcing the problem, and he was not doing the work to address his feelings. I was feeling quite like a pacifier.

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It's so good that you see this so that you can maintain an emotional autonomy, which every good relationship requires, whether you're a romantic couple or not.

Thanks for more details. I don't know if any of these ideas help. Take it with a grain of salt.

I dont know if he experiences it in exactly this way, but it is definitely threatening for him. It triggers him deeply, and I think it is a sense of loss and also anger that I am getting to go on dates while he is not. But I know that when I am in an actual relationship, yes he does feel abandoned, and he has expressed this lately as well.

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Does he have core beliefs that need updating or changing? Any of the ones mentioned there?

Or poly hell stuff?

Maybe that is something he could talk about with his individual therapist.

We have therapist appointment set, and we will see how that goes. He says that the last time we went, he left each time feeling torn and chaotic. I think he would benefit more from solo therapy that is not about me and is more about him and what he wants for himself. But the couples therapy will help us talk about the issues where we are roadblocked.

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I hope the couples therapy appointment goes well this week and he is able to set up individual therapy.

What he is saying is that it isnt fair that I get date time and he doesnt.

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He measures the "fairness" by date time? Rather than by both of you having the option to date outside the marriage?

You do not control his potential dating partner's willingness to go out with him. They do.

Maybe that is something to sort out with his therapist too -- his ideas around "fairness" and if they are realistic or not.

If I want to go out, he will remind me of how he doesnt get that time, didnt get to go to yoga, etc. Basically he guilts me.

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If he's been needing extra time to go out, why gunnysack it? Was he expecting you to mind reader this need? And then he dumps it out on the table when you are trying to schedule your time out?

I experience that as "changing the channel" on me. If I set an appointment to talk to DH about X, and then he wants to bring on Y -- well, we can talk about that too. But at its OWN appointment time or AFTER my turn. He's "cutting in line" so to speak. And I do not like that. If he's been gunny sacking things, that is him not attending to his needs by making an appointment with me. He can't just steal my appointment. I met my needs, I set a time. I followed protocol.

Over here, I get M and W to myself -- whether I go out or stay in, I am not the night parent person. Spouse is. He gets T and Th -- whether he goes out or stays in, he is not the parent person. F is a family date and weekends revolve around the kids activities.

If DH CHOOSES not to go out on his nights, he cannot complain to me that he doesn't "get to go out." We each have our nights that are fair. If he wants to talk about switching them up because he wants to take a class or something on Wed, I am open to switching it up. He knows that.

My Alzheimer parent does weird thinking. He will fuss at me that he does get to do X. Not because that's really what it is about. Basically he doesn't want me to leave and go home. He wants me to stay with him. So he tries to pick a circular argument with me about him not getting to go out, so I have to sit there telling he DOES. So he argues back that he DOESN'T... see what I mean about circles? Or he tries to "make jobs" for me. "Just one more thing before you go... can you help me find my glasses?" or similar.

But the hidden agenda is to keep me there longer. If I am there arguing or hunting for things, then I am not leaving. Hidden goal achieved.

Is something like that going on here? And you are thinking it is about the argument? When it is just a cover and it is about something else?

We have not been getting much date time. We have teen daughter who will stay with the younger ones when she is home from college. But finances are tight so sitters are not usually on the radar. We do sit and watch TV after kids are in bed, but nothing that is really connecting. Just being in the same room, really.

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That sounds like a problem to address if the goal is to work on the marriage. You cannot have too many "out of house" dates die to finances, so improving the quality of "in house" dates has to be looked at. (Depending on the ages of the children do look for "parent night out" activities that are free or low cost. Sometimes community centers, libraries, schools, and similar put those on.)

Maybe turn the TV off and do something together for an "in house date" that is more engaging? Play a board game? Talk? Make something together -- art project or cooking? Dream together -- and plan a garden or a plan vacation together whether or not you actually get to it?

What do you guys like to do together?

I'm ok with passive TV dates so long as I am also getting active ones. But just passive dates is not "back and both relating" to me. Being in the same room is parallel play -- and that can be great. I do my hobbies and he does his and we show each other what we do. But it's those moments of talking that make is fun to me. Not really interacting at all? Passive dates get boring to me.

I could be wrong... but FWIW? When I read your post, I notice that you do not seem to be listening to him. You seem to keep "correcting" him and then making the conversation be about you.

I get that you might be frustrated and unheard with all this rigamarole that never changes... but maybe some of the changes could start with how you listen and communicate? I learned from dealing with my parent that we have certain "records" we play together. He says X, I respond with Y, and we play the record we always play. That I am BORED of.

It was on me to NOT get sucked into that habit and change the record. So I had to actively respond to him in a new way, and not just react and say the "usual thing."

Maybe that's something to think about? Here is what I see.

But I know that when I am in an actual relationship, yes he does feel abandoned, and he has expressed this lately as well. My response to that is to remind him that he really doesnt want me to "perform" (i.e. snuggle, have sex, etc.) just because he is feeling this way. That is not genuine connection and makes me feel used and is not consensual.

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He tells you what he wants.

Then you tell him what "he really wants."

Like he doesn't know what he wants for himself. You might not agree with what he wants, but could not "correct" him.

He just says that he thinks he needs a partner to make himself feel better. I have told him that I dont think that will solve the problem, that he feels the way he feels for a reason and he needs to figure that out.

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He tells you what he thinks would help him. (He IS trying to figure it out.)

There you tell him that his thinking is wrong.

If you have this habit of telling him what he is really wanting, really thinking or really feeling? Is it any wonder that he looks to you to "magically know"? You seem to know all the other times. Any wonder that he looks to you to "fix it all" -- because you seem to have handy answers all the time.

I think you might be inadvertently contributing to the situation by communicating that way with him even though you say you don't like this way of relating.

You could try something else when he says things like that.

SITUATION #1


SITUATION #2

Of course, if he and I were getting more physical time together, he would be fine. I told him that I am done with that, not giving him sex for those reasons. I have noticed since early on in our relationship that he can be down, depressed, and irritated, but once we have sex he is happy and relaxed and all is good with the world. He thinks everything is okay as long as we connect that way.

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Sex = endorphins = feel goods.

But yes, you do not want to be the "sex pacifier." That doesn't make you feel like a person. It makes you feel like an object.

Is he dealing with depression? Would medication help? Sex, emotional eating -- people turn to whatever for the "feel goods" but maybe a another approach could be getting a check up to see if actual meds are needed?

If he doesn't want to be in a polyship he shouldn't medicate just to endure being in one.

But apart from the poly thing... if he is suffering from depression that colors his whole outlook and quality of life, a check up might not be a terrible thing.

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

Does he have core beliefs that need updating or changing? Any of the ones mentioned there?

Or poly hell stuff?

Maybe that is something he could talk about with his individual therapist. Galagirl

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I think it is probably a combo for him. There have definitely been times when NRE or other aspects of relationships with others had a negative impact on us, and we have talked about that. I was able to see the ways in which I was getting sucked in to the other relationship and not being kind or supportive with him. There were certainly "poly hell" moments. I am working towards not letting that happen again.

GalaGirl said:

He measures the "fairness" by date time? Rather than by both of you having the option to date outside the marriage? Galagirl

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I think he sees me having opportunity to go out with others, and he says that he feels sad that he does not have those opportunities. I encourage him to join groups that would have meaning for him (yoga, ecstatic dance, etc.) and he has done that more than in the past. He is making the effort, but still is just not meeting people for relationship.

GalaGirl said:

If he's been needing extra time to go out, why gunnysack it? Was he expecting you to mind reader this need? And then he dumps it out on the table when you are trying to schedule your time out?

I experience that as "changing the channel" on me. If I set an appointment to talk to DH about X, and then he wants to bring on Y -- well, we can talk about that too. But at its OWN appointment time or AFTER my turn. He's "cutting in line" so to speak. And I do not like that. If he's been gunny sacking things, that is him not attending to his needs by making an appointment with me. He can't just steal my appointment. I met my needs, I set a time. I followed protocol.


My Alzheimer parent does weird thinking. He will fuss at me that he does get to do X. Not because that's really what it is about. Basically he doesn't want me to leave and go home. He wants me to stay with him. So he tries to pick a circular argument with me about him not getting to go out, so I have to sit there telling he DOES. So he argues back that he DOESN'T... see what I mean about circles? Or he tries to "make jobs" for me. "Just one more thing before you go... can you help me find my glasses?" or similar.

But the hidden agenda is to keep me there longer. If I am there arguing or hunting for things, then I am not leaving. Hidden goal achieved.

Is something like that going on here? And you are thinking it is about the argument? When it is just a cover and it is about something else? Galagirl

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I do think he is wanting us to connect more. I would like some more non physical connections, and he says that is fine and that he wants that as well. But then we do that (or at least what I think is it) and he still says he is not feeling that connection. We have always had this disconnect.

I need intellectual and emotional connection in order to be sexual.(Demisexual?) The others need to come first for me. He finds his sense of connection to me through being sexual. THEN he feels the emotional connection. Its like we are opposites. I dont think he is wrong for feeling this way, it is just not my way. I have spent a lot of our relationship relating to him on his terms, meeting him on his side where I have sex anyway just to get him to the point where I can get my emotional connection. I am now asking him to meet me on my side sometimes and give me the things I need so that I can begin the sexual encounter feeling the emotional connection. Not using it to get there.

GalaGirl said:

What do you guys like to do together? Galagirl

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I am not sure anymore. We have been parenting a long time and have not been able to do much together because we have been focused on that. We have pretty different interests, so this is something we will need to explore to see if we do have things in common still. (He likes to hike, dance, etc. He is a body oriented person. I am brain oriented, will sit and drink tea and chat for hours. I will walk in the woods, but i am not a hiker.)

GalaGirl said:

I could be wrong... but FWIW? When I read your post, I notice that you do not seem to be listening to him. You seem to keep "correcting" him and then making the conversation be about you.

I get that you might be frustrated and unheard with all this rigamarole that never changes... but maybe some of the changes could start with how you listen and communicate? I learned from dealing with my parent that we have certain "records" we play together. He says X, I respond with Y, and we play the record we always play. That I am BORED of.

...



He tells you what he thinks would help him. (He IS trying to figure it out.)

There you tell him that his thinking is wrong.

If you have this habit of telling him what he is really wanting, really thinking or really feeling? Is it any wonder that he looks to you to "magically know"? You seem to know all the other times. Any wonder that he looks to you to "fix it all" -- because you seem to have handy answers all the time.

I think you might be inadvertently contributing to the situation by communicating that way with him even though you say you don't like this way of relating.

You could try something else when he says things like that. Galagirl

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Thank you for sharing this observation. You could be right, I may very well be doing this.

I do know that I am a "fixer" and wish to be able to fix all of this. And perhaps when he shares something that I dont know how to fix, I am frustrated because he is also not fixing? It is very good feedback for me. I will make an effort to be a better listener.

GalaGirl said:

Is he dealing with depression? Would medication help? Sex, emotional eating -- people turn to whatever for the "feel goods" but maybe a another approach could be getting a check up to see if actual meds are needed?

Galagirl

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Yes, we agree that he has probably been depressed a long time. Our therapist pointed this out to him when we first saw her three years ago. He does not want to take meds, even though he knows that some people do better with them. I myself took Zoloft for postpartum depression, and also for a bit after the breakup with ex-bf. It helped me be more functional, but also makes feeling more "limited". He does not always have good reactions to meds so I think he is more wary of trying this option.

Galagirl, thank you so much for your insights. They are tremendously helpful to me....

I want to add that it is so common for women to handle men's emotions for them. Our society tells us this is proper. Men are taught to bury their feelings. They can't show them at work, or even with their male friends. Many men refuse to go to a therapist to vent and work through feelings. "But I'm not crazy!"

Women, otoh, are raised to share their feelings, sometimes to the bitter end. So we end up feeling responsible for our male partner's feelings. To "protect the fragile male ego," we mother our men, who remain eternal babies on the inside, even if they look so tough on the outside.

I was married to a man and lived mono for 30 years. While I was poly at heart, I tried to never admit it to my husband, to protect his fragile self esteem. I mirrored how my own mother "managed" and placated my father. I shrank myself. It was the elephant in the room.

My h always sensed when I got a crush. Hell, he even got jealous if I talked "too long" to a male neighbor in the apartment building hallway, or in the yard. Or if I got "too long" of a hug greeting a male friend at a party. He seemed to mostly ignore my platonic relationships with females haha, even though he knew I was bi. He did worry that all my female friends and I did was bitch about our husbands. That was very insulting! As if we had nothing else to talk about! That was just his paranoia.

He once admitted one of the reasons he wanted us to move out of Boston and get a house in the suburbs was to keep me away from men!


We did have periods of years where his seeming need to control me killed my desire for him.

There were other times when I tried to do what I could to "prove my love." I did things he asked. Make him packed lunches (even when we had 3 kids in 5 years and I'd be doing it with toddlers gripping my knees and crying)? I did that. Didn't work. So I added lovey stickers to the Tupperware. Didn't work. Go on more dates? Fun, but didnt reassure him. More sex? I finally submitted to that, and while I was able to enjoy the physical sensations (once my kids got older, my sex drive increased), it didn't reassure him.

He just felt unlovable, and so-- unloved.

Finally I realised nothing I did was going to help. I moved my things and slept in the guest room for 5 years. It was so freeing to decorate the room just the way I wanted it. I didn't consider divorce, because the kids were young. But I needed space and peace in the evenings and at night. We continued to share sex, we just didn't actually sleep in the same room.

Then about 10 years ago, I started meeting men on early message boards, and soon found that flirting was fun, fed my ego, and was harmless. Then I "fell in love" with one of these men. I finally realised I was fed up with feeding my h's ego, while he told me I was evil for having feelings for others, other men, other women. It felt so good to be appreciated by these men, who knew I was poly and loved me anyway.

I was into the "sunk cost" fallacy. "We've been together so long, worked so hard on our relationship, I don't hate him. I love 60% of him. I don't want to give up!" But it wasn't enough. I realised my loyalty was ridiculous and did neither of us any good.

We had several couples therapists over the years. He also did 1 year of individual therapy. I did 3 years of it. Our final couples' therapist "fired" my h when it became obvious he was unwilling or unable to address certain childhood demons that caused his low self esteem.

I finally got fed up! I was beyond tired of his jealousy, his passive aggressive behaviors, etc etc. I started doing more for myself. Besides moving out of the master bedroom, I took a trip across the country to visit some platonic gfs. I got more involved with the one man from the message board, cybersexed, made plans to go visit him (he was 1000 miles away though and it never came to be).

Finally, my h and I broke up. He moved out. Within 3 months I found another partner who is so much better suited for me, it isn't even funny. And she is poly, and we both date men independently from each other. And we do other activities independently with no problems. But we get along so well, we are all romantic and gushy with each other still after nearly 8 years. Our communication is excellent. She is never jealous when I have a hot bf. She is proud I am desired by others since she thinks I am so wonderful, and is glad others see it too. I never knew a relationship could be so good!

I am so glad I started this new phase of my life. I've never regretted it for one instant. My ex h found a gf. They are mono. She is better suited to him. I don't think he is that happy, still, since he still has the same issues he always had with low self esteem, but at least his gf is mono.

We are still co-parents, now co-grandparents, and we are friendly enough to share many holidays and birthdays with our kids and grandkids, and talk or text occasionally on the phone too. So, I didn't lose him from my life. But I sure am glad I don't live with him anymore!

Anyway, that's how it worked out for me. I related a lot to your story, so I thought I'd share my similar one, and how it all worked out happily.

As I was writing the above, you posted. My ex h was also told by our therapist that he was depressed, and she offered meds. He refused. I was also depressed and I accepted meds and did well on them (just needed one year of meds), moving past panic and onto solutions (like choosing to do things independently, to be "self full," instead of always coddling my husband).

Magdlyn said:

I want to add that it is so common for women to handle men's emotions for them. Our society tells us this is proper. Men are taught to bury their feelings. They can't show them at work, or even with their male friends. Many men refuse to go to a therapist to vent and work through feelings. "But I'm not crazy!"

Women, otoh, are raised to share their feelings, sometimes to the bitter end. So we end up feeling responsible for our male partner's feelings. To "protect the fragile male ego," we mother our men, who remain eternal babies on the inside, even if they look so tough on the outside.

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Yes, I agree Magdlyn! Bear is certainly an emotional guy and is not afraid to let me know that (even in positive ways) but I think it is hard for him to put words to his feelings. I dont think he even learned how to do that. When we talk, I can give him a 10 min description of my thoughts, my feelings, and analyze what I think is happening. He gives very abstract answers, like "I feel completely chaotic and shredded." Not easy to work with, for him or for me.

Magdlyn said:

Finally I realised nothing I did was going to help. I moved my things and slept in the guest room for 5 years. It was so freeing to decorate the room just the way I wanted it. I didn't consider divorce, because the kids were young. But I needed space and peace in the evenings and at night. We continued to share sex, we just didn't actually sleep in the same room.

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I actually have been considering this. While we dont have a spare room, I could easily just sleep in my daughters room while she is away at school. But not sure what that would look like when she comes home. I dont know that it would change how we are currently functioning, but it might create a bit of separation for us.

Magdlyn said:

Then about 10 years ago, I started meeting men on early message boards, and soon found that flirting was fun, fed my ego, and was harmless. Then I "fell in love" with one of these men. I finally realised I was fed up with feeding my h's ego, while he told me I was evil for having feelings for others, other men, other women. It felt so good to be appreciated by these men, who knew I was poly and loved me anyway.

Click to expand...

I had previously had some small experiences (a couple of hook ups), but no real relationships. When the ex-bf and I fell in love and I was faced with the reality that this was actually happening and Bear and I needed to finally deal with it, it was really hard for him. Partly because it happened so fast and was intense for us both. But for me, it was so freeing! I knew for sure that I could love more than one person. I truly wanted them both, and only considered leaving Bear because things were so hard for us to navigate. I knew that each of them made me feel strong and loved and sexy in their own way. But that is not easy to describe to someone else, and Bear just always felt like I was seeking out something that he could never provide me, and that made him feel shitty.

Magdlyn said:

I was into the "sunk cost" fallacy. "We've been together so long, worked so hard on our relationship, I don't hate him. I love 60% of him. I don't want to give up!" But it wasn't enough. I realised my loyalty was ridiculous and did neither of us any good.

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This is EXACTLY where I am right now. I do want him about 60-70%. We are good friends and good coparents. But the personal intimacy piece is just so hard. I could just accept that some people have this kind of marriage and live with it. I could choose to be mono and just not have to deal with any of the poly piece at all. But I know that if I do that, I will just slowly die inside. I truly feel that way. I have been holding back for so long. I am 47. I dont want to anymore.


Thank you for sharing your experience!

But that is not easy to describe to someone else, and Bear just always felt like I was seeking out something that he could never provide me, and that made him feel shitty.

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Well, it is true. If what you crave is more than 1 partner or variety, as wonderful as Bear is? He cannot magically turn himself into two people. He cannot BE two people. Limit of the Universe.

So NO. He alone cannot provide what you want. The sooner you both make peace with that and stop taking it personally, the better, I think.

You having this preference is not you doing something "to" him like you are out to hurt him.

Him not being able to be 2 people is not him being some kind of "failure."

It is simply the situation at hand.

This is EXACTLY where I am right now. I do want him about 60-70%. We are good friends and good coparents. But the personal intimacy piece is just so hard.

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Right now you seem to be identifying the areas that need work to recapture personal intimacy. (Ex: Need more couple time, different approaches to sex, communication issues , etc. ) Could keep identifying all the sore spots -- with counselor help if needed.

When ready? For each puzzle piece -- some of it is your stuff, some of it is his stuff and some of it is "our stuff." Figure out who owns what part. It cannot be ALL you. Even if you like fixing things, you have to let him own his share. It cannot be ALL you.

Ex: Couple dating time.

I think long time couples can get lazy about just assuming the other one is up for whatever whenever without actually having to check in and sync up anything on calendars. They forget that the partner can choose to spend their time with friends, hobbies, classes, resting, etc. They take each other's time for granted. I think you might be bumping into some of that now that you are doing other things with your time.

Solving that puzzle pieces might break out into

• You clearing you schedule up some -- that's "your stuff, your job." Nobody can do that bit but you.
  
• Him clearing his schedule up some -- that's "his stuff, his job." Nobody can do that bit but him.
  
  BOTH of those have to happen first before you can get to ....
  
• "Our stuff -- that you both do together." You both sit down and compare calendars to make a date, and what you will want to do on this in house date.

You could get a sense of who owns which part of each particular puzzle piece. Make a plan to deal with couple time, a plan to deal with communication, a plan to deal with the other stuff. Then you have all these plans.... and you have to put them in order. Which ones to knock out first? You guys form a strategy. Not just one plan, but a collection of plans.

You seem to want to know he IS working on things -- well, with a clear cut plan with measurable objectives you can easily see. He's doing his stuff and his share of the "our stuff" or not.

When you have a clear picture of how much work this is going to take? And you assess whether or not you are up for your parts and your share of the "our stuff" parts? And you assess whether you believe in his follow through on him doing his stuff and his share of the "our stuff" parts?

Then you can decide if you want to keep on investing in this, and if you are likely to get a good return on your continued investment.

Or if that all sounds like a pain or the odds for each of you pulling your share don't look good? You could accept that on some level you are done with this and/or have no heart for it any more. Just not maybe not ready to accept you are DONE done and still grieving it.

I cannot tell from your writing if where you land. Maybe this time you could do individual counseling for you to help you figure all that out?

Galagirl

GalaGirl said:

Well, it is true. If what you crave is more than 1 partner or variety, as wonderful as Bear is? He cannot magically turn himself into two people. He cannot BE two people. Limit of the Universe.

So NO. He alone cannot provide what you want. The sooner you both make peace with that and stop taking it personally, the better, I think.

You having this preference is not you doing something "to" him like you are out to hurt him.

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Yeah, I hear that. He does take it personally though. At least that is how it comes across to me. He can understand logically, but then when I do say "Hey I'm meeting the girls for a planning dinner on Wednesday"? He will often immediately say, "OK, well when do I get my time away?" Its like I always need to keep it even. Which I have no problem doing, in practice. But I have trouble when it is presented as, "Sure you can go do that as long as I get to go do mine." It then feels conditional.

He could very easily reframe his request in a way that doesnt make it conditional. "Hey, that sounds good. I was also thinking I would go to this gathering at the farm this weekend. Does that work with other plans?"

I would prefer that our negotiations not be couched in this tit for tat game. I have hardly ever denied him time to go do things he likes. Only once did I truly put my foot down, and that was when we already had plans to go see my family and give them very big news about our son. Which I had to actually go out of my way to explain to him that I should not have to tell my parents alone... And he brings that up, that I have prevented him from taking time out to socialize. When it is more that our obligations to kids and work and life limit our ability to go do things.

GalaGirl said:

You could get a sense of who owns which part of each particular puzzle piece. Make a plan to deal with couple time, a plan to deal with communication, a plan to deal with the other stuff. Then you have all these plans.... and you have to put them in order. Which ones to knock out first? You guys form a strategy. Not just one plan, but a collection of plans.

Click to expand...

GalaGirl said:

You seem to want to know he IS working on things -- well, with a clear cut plan with measurable objectives you can easily see. He's doing his stuff and his share of the "our stuff" or not.

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Yes, this is true. I would like it if he was able to come to me and talk about his process. Things he considered, things he is looking to change or improve. BUt I think he just doesnt think on this level? This is not how he processes. It is how I process.

He is more likely to come to me and ask "What is the plan for the weekend?" Assuming I already have one. I prefer that we talk about what needs to happen this weekend, and then make a plan together. I think he finds this tedious. He doesn't want to go through all of that, he would prefer that I just tell him where to be and when.

When this happens, I feel like I am responsible for all decision making, and that is not the job I want. I want a partnership, not be the boss. Yes, I have said that to him, and he says we can do that, but then he does not do that.

GalaGirl said:

Or if that all sounds like a pain or the odds for each of you pulling your share don't look good? You could accept that on some level you are done with this and/or have no heart for it any more. Just not maybe not ready to accept you are DONE done and still grieving it.

I cannot tell from your writing if where you land. Maybe this time you could do individual counseling for you to help you figure all that out?

Galagirl

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I am not sure where I am either, which is why the therapy is needed. I am on the fence. But I don't want to just walk away unless I know that we have truly tried to make it work, and improve our communication. It is easy to just say "oh leave if you aren't happy." But not so easy to do...