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  #21  
Old 03-30-2011, 04:34 PM
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There must be some evolutionary influence on behaviour, otherwise different species wouldn't have such different (usual) sexual patterns. For example, the other two chimpanzee species tend to use sex the way we'd use a polite handshake. Why don't humans?
Actually according to Sex at Dawn, only the bonobos do this. Chimps do not, they are more territorial, and the females only have sex at estrus, not throughout the menstrual cycle like bonbos. Also, bonobos have lots of gay/lesbian contact. It's so refreshing to see another ape species that is more like humans.

Quite a few humans do use sex as a handshake or a temporary release! Ever been in a bar at closing time?

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  #22  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Actually according to Sex at Dawn, only the bonobos do this. Chimps do not, they are more territorial, and the females only have sex at estrus, not throughout the menstrual cycle like bonbos. Also, bonobos have lots of gay/lesbian contact. It's so refreshing to see another ape species that is more like humans.

Quite a few humans do use sex as a handshake or a temporary release! Ever been in a bar at closing time?

Remember the hippies? Love the one you're with?
Correct - Bonobos are about the only species of primate that have such open, plentiful, and unassuming sex. That being said however, even ape species which are considered to be "monogamous" are often observed having incidental sexual contact with individuals who are not their mates, often times repeatedly with the same other individual for years. ...a sort of "affair", if you will.

I suppose the point is that NO primates are actually monogamous.
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  #23  
Old 03-30-2011, 06:39 PM
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BlackUnicorn BlackUnicorn is offline
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Erm, that is usually what evolutionary biologists mean by natural. Have you read The Selfish Gene?[/URL].
I don't mean evolutionary biology as a science, but its bastardization as 'evolutionary psychology' which makes assumptions about the evolutionary basis for behavior in modern humans. Although natural is not right, the proponents of this philosophy do emphasize that changing sex roles, for example, is basically a futile attempt because men's philandering and violent behaviors are so ingrained in the human genetic make-up. This pseudo-science presents itself as value-neutral, but has very strong Social Darwinist undertones and owes its birth to a specific historical situation where religion is again gaining ground in science and politics. With the onslaught of the religious right in American politics, for example, many natural scientists have succumbed to making natural science into a pseudo-religion/world explanation which makes it easy to discredit science as a tool, as well.

I have not read the Selfish Gene but know the basic argument behind it, which of course isn't the same thing as having actually read and understood it as it was originally formulated by the author. The word 'selfish', however, illustrates to me well the basic fallacy behind this school of thought; anthropomorphizing nature and evolution to have goals, mental states etc.

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Originally Posted by Myrddin View Post
There must be some evolutionary influence on behaviour, otherwise different species wouldn't have such different (usual) sexual patterns. For example, the other two chimpanzee species tend to use sex the way we'd use a polite handshake. Why don't humans?
Yeah, absolutely. There are probably no social behaviors in modern humans which could not have an evolutionary effect, and which thus could not become the 'evolutionary basis' behind future behaviors in our species. However, assuming a hypothetical past situation and THEN assuming a unilateral, as opposed to multiple co-existing, evolutionary progress for some behaviors we witness in today's populations is mere speculation; entertaining, but garbing it as 'science' is unfounded.
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  #24  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:00 PM
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I suppose the point is that NO primates are actually monogamous.
Just me

Bonobos also engage in fights, kill thier children and were largely studied in captivity...just saying.
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  #25  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:08 PM
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According to Sex at Dawn, bonobos do not practice infanticide. Offspring are cared for by the tribe, and even nursed by multiple "mothers." Knowing what I do about lactation, this means the infant/toddler bonobo drinks in the DNA from several mothers, thereby, to an extent, actually becoming biologically the child of more than one mother!

It seems to me the male bonobos are far too busy chillin and fuckin to worry about whose kid is whose.

(God, I wish I was a bonobo...)

We all know data collected from animals in captivity is not as valuable as that from wild animals in their natural habitat. My understanding is that there has been quite a bit of research done on bonobos in the wild, thought it is very difficult because of their remote location in a politically volatile country (Rep of Congo/Zaire).
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  #26  
Old 03-30-2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackUnicorn View Post
I don't mean evolutionary biology as a science, but its bastardization as 'evolutionary psychology' which makes assumptions about the evolutionary basis for behavior in modern humans. Although natural is not right, the proponents of this philosophy do emphasize that changing sex roles, for example, is basically a futile attempt because men's philandering and violent behaviors are so ingrained in the human genetic make-up. This pseudo-science presents itself as value-neutral, but has very strong Social Darwinist undertones and owes its birth to a specific historical situation where religion is again gaining ground in science and politics. With the onslaught of the religious right in American politics, for example, many natural scientists have succumbed to making natural science into a pseudo-religion/world explanation which makes it easy to discredit science as a tool, as well.
Is your hypothesis then that human behavior is non-evolutionary? It's important to keep science value-neutral in order to better understand the world and our species. Setting out under the assumption that men and women are exactly equal in all respects is fallacious - we are a sexually dimorphic species in form, and chemically dimorphic also - science has shown clearly the effect that different chemical landscapes have on the way our brains operate. I'll agree that drawing instant conclusions to support traditional gender roles is nonscientific and stupid, obviously... but I think it's important to consider our evolution when analyzing behavior.

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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Just me

Bonobos also engage in fights, kill thier children and were largely studied in captivity...just saying.
Well, speaking about species as a whole, obviously.

And as for fighting and killing children, this is a pretty common thing among primates as a whole as well. Humans included.
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  #27  
Old 03-30-2011, 08:35 PM
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According to Sex at Dawn, bonobos do not practice infanticide. .
Yeah I used to think that too until I looked into other sources of information. Bonobos are highly romantisized (spelled wrong) and certainly stand out among primates. They do have all the usual tendencies of other primates though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth...00/8487138.stm

"Metaphor

"But we now know they do hunt monkeys. So I think eating an already dead baby says little about bonobos in that respect.

"Bonobos are often used in a symbolic way, held up as the sexy, peaceful 'Hippy Chimps'.

"The fact that they eat monkeys and consume their own dead offspring may not accord with this view, but I personally don't see this as a problem."

"The idea of the 'Hippy Chimp' is more a metaphor than a scientific argument," he continues. "
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Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 03-30-2011 at 08:44 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-30-2011, 10:03 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Just me

Bonobos also engage in fights, kill thier children and were largely studied in captivity...just saying.
Gotta love having that upper level thought processes and logic eh?

I find most of these points interesting but moot. My parents were happily monogamous. To argue against monogamy throws it in the face of those people.

Argue for your right to be non-monogamous, not "monos" misdirected belief that monogamy isn't natural. Good way to get their backs up.
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  #29  
Old 03-31-2011, 12:48 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Mono, the parts you quote don't say that they killed their young, only that they eat them if they die. That's different, I think. It's still possible that they kill their offspring, but I don't think the quotes you shared prove that.
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  #30  
Old 03-31-2011, 01:44 AM
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Mono, the parts you quote don't say that they killed their young, only that they eat them if they die. That's different, I think. It's still possible that they kill their offspring, but I don't think the quotes you shared prove that.
You're right actually. That is only one source and others mention that it is rare for Bonobos to kill their young. I can't find any documentation stating specifically that a bonobo was witnessed killing it's own young before eating it. They do however hunt other primates and eat them and unlike chimps the females also participate in hunting. I don't hate Bonobos, I just recognize that they are not all peace and love and commit acts of violence just like any other primate. Along a similar myth of seeing some animals as beautifully peaceful intelligent creatures is the documented studies of Bottle Nose Dolphins who are almost unique in nature for apparently killing for pleasure. Every species with intellect has it's dark side.

But enough hi-jacking
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