Opening up, when you're already poly

Hi all, wondering if anyone has any advice about moving from a closed poly set up to an open one.

I've been with my husband for 15 years, officially open for about 4. We had a pretty easy time moving from mono to poly, mostly because both of us were already more poly than we realized, and we have strong trust and communication.

I've been with my boyfriend for almost 2 years, and we agreed early on not to add more partners besides each other and our respective spouses. Lately I've been struggling with that, because I feel like our time together and his investment in our relationship has decreased. We talked yesterday and it turns out he has been struggling with the closed model, too, for his own reasons. He's really just starting to explore what identifying as poly means for him and his future.

Soooo, we agreed to think about what we want, open vs closed, how we would manage an open model. And I'm REALLY nervous about it. This feels so much scarier than opening up my marriage.

Part of it is that my husband and I naively promised each other that non monogamy was just an experiment and we'd stop immediately if either of us wanted to ( Luckily we never had to test that!) I don't have that sense of an emergency brake this time around.

I also don't have the history, entanglements, etc with my boyfriend that I did (and still do) with my husband. Or, to be honest, the same level of trust and communication.

I want to be supportive of his exploration and growth. I want the chance to explore and grow, too. But I'm scared of being replaced, scared of losing time with him... Basically, I'm feeling all the things most people feel when they open a relationship

And I keep hearing the advice we so often give to "newbies", about making sure the existing couple relationship is solid before adding more partners. I do not feel like the me+boyfriend relationship is particularly solid. But I don't know how to get to solid with both of us chafing at the closed set up

Advice, dos and don'ts, success stories, horror stories???

Hi Claire,

The best I can think to tell you is to advise you to transition slowly, communicating often along each step of the way. I can't guarantee that everything will turn out alright, but my initial impression is that the situation is hopeful.

If you'll keep us updated on how things are going, we'll be able to think of more advice.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

my husband and I naively promised each other that non monogamy was just an experiment and we'd stop immediately if either of us wanted to

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IMNSHO, the more that a relationship is inflexible, rule-bound, & unable to evolve, the less it is polyamory.

Four years is a heartbeat in cultural monogamy, & an eternity in polyamory.

And if it's going to change dramatically, then now is the perfect time to start from scratch rather than graft more amendments onto a decrepit structure.

Ravenscroft said:

IMNSHO, the more that a relationship is inflexible, rule-bound, & unable to evolve, the less it is polyamory.

Four years is a heartbeat in cultural monogamy, & an eternity in polyamory.

And if it's going to change dramatically, then now is the perfect time to start from scratch rather than graft more amendments onto a decrepit structure.

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I appreciate your taking the time to comment, but I will admit to having no idea at all what you're talking about.

If the decrepit structure you're referring to is agreements with my husband... Those have changed many times and I'm sure will change again! But they don't seem related to my current worries, since my husband dates whomever he pleases, and encourages me to do the same.

The agreements I've made with my boyfriend are between me and him, they don't have anything to do with the agreements I make with my husband, other than that I have to be sure I can keep both sets. Hope that makes some sense.

Makes sense to me

When we (me and Dude and, to a lesser extent, MrS) got involved with Lotus, she asked that we (her, me, and Dude) "close" for a period of time. This agreement did not apply to MrS (my husband) or TT (her husband). We/I agreed and the agreement was modified to exclude "old" partners with the understanding that it was a temporary measure.

Ultimately, I chafed under the "no new people" rule (on Dude's behalf, not my own - but I could for-see that it would happen, I am a "spontaneous" flirt.) Shortly thereafter she broke up with him/us. Related? IDK

****************************

For ME, the allure of poly is the freedom to let EVERY relationship that I have evolve to wherever it should be - given the time and resources of the people involved. Restricting that, in ANY way, is anathema to my very reason for being poly in the first place. I can agree with it for a short (3-12 month) period of time, but not indefinitely.

Hi, GirlFromTexlahoma!

First of all, I need to make clear that I've never been in this situation. In my case, if a relationship was poly, it was totally open. I'm not criticising the decision that you reached with your bf, I'm just saying that I've never made it myself, so my advice doesn't come from first-hand experience.

I can understand your misgivings about opening up a closed poly dynamic into an open one if the closed one isn't solid. However, it seems to me that if what is making it less solid is that both of you are chafing at the closedness, it might be the right move. It makes sense. But when was making sense ever a determining factor in relationships?

Relationship decisions are not forged in steel. This means

a) that perhaps both of you have outgrown the old one;

b) that perhaps one or both of you will in the future decide that the opening up was a big mistake.

Is there some way of hanging a safety net (like you did 4 years ago with your husband)? "We'll try this out, but if it doesn't work, we can return to the present model." Is that an option?

Are you scared that your bf might thrive under the changed conditions and not want to return to the present model, whereas you would be miserable (feel neglected and demoted)? In that case, maybe he's outgrown it and you haven't. Would it be right for you to stop his growth?

Life involves occasionally making wrong moves. Fear of making them shouldn't petrify us so we remain motionless. (I'm not saing that you're petrified: having doubts is always a good sign that your brain is working. People who never have doubts are much more likely to make incredible blunders.)

Best of luck!

Thanks Kevon, I was starting to worry I wasn't explaining the situation very well!

JaneQSmythe said:

For ME, the allure of poly is the freedom to let EVERY relationship that I have evolve to wherever it should be - given the time and resources of the people involved. Restricting that, in ANY way, is anathema to my very reason for being poly in the first place. I can agree with it for a short (3-12 month) period of time, but not indefinitely.

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This is the way Dag is feeling right now. He's doing a ton of reading and thinking about polyamory and what it means for him.

And I think that's great! But I still worry it will lead us to being in very different places, relationship needs-wise.

I don't identify as poly. For me it's an option; I can be happy mono, I can be happy poly. I would not want to be in a relationship with anyone who was dead set on monogamy, always, forever, because I think in many situations non-monogamy is a better choice. But I can get my "love other people" needs from friendship, and restricting the possibility of sex/romance with others doesn't bother me.

MrFarFromRight said:

Are you scared that your bf might thrive under the changed conditions and not want to return to the present model, whereas you would be miserable (feel neglected and demoted)? In that case, maybe he's outgrown it and you haven't. Would it be right for you to stop his growth?

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You hit the nail on the head here.

I absolutely want to encourage his growth. I want happiness and the best life possible for him. It's still scary, though!

Is there some way of hanging a safety net (like you did 4 years ago with your husband)? "We'll try this out, but if it doesn't work, we can return to the present model." Is that an option?

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I don't think so...

I don't have that agreement with my husband anymore, obviously (or maybe it's not obvious?) At this point we just talk through things, with the understanding that at some point, one or both of us might be unhappy enough to say, "look, if we can't go back to monogamy, I'm out." But we don't expect to be able to dictate each other's choices. And so far we haven't had any poly related issues we couldn't solve fairly easily.

With my boyfriend, I don't want to make that newbie mistake again, of assuming I can dictate what he can and can't do.

I guess the best I can do is what I do with my husband - talk it through and be honest if an open model isn't working.

Having followed your blog, I get the sense that you feel a basic security with your husband and a basic insecurity with Dag. Before exploring additional relationships, you might consider identifying the specific places inside yourself where you feel secure with one and insecure with the other. Maybe ask yourself (and I don't know, i'm just asking you to think about) why it is that you can build such a firm bedrock of security with your husband, but not with Dag. You've actually thought a lot about this in your blog and I encourage you to keep going with that. Additional partners of yours and Dag's are going to illuminate this question more for you, so adding more people really will only serve you in the long run, but if you're not clear about what's underlying your basic insecurity with Dag, it might be a rough go to get to the illumination.

I'll mention that for me, a lot of my insecurities were/are tied to the extent to which I feel sexually and romantically drawn to a person. There may or may not be a corollary for you, but perhaps the idea can help. I have found that I'm able to allow an enormous breadth of freedom and feel very secure when romantic and sexual feelings are just simmering. When I feel super attracted sexually, all of my deep abandonment issues come roaring up to the surface. I can easily "do poly" with some people and with others....um.....no. I have found that other people and relationship style choices don't affect my sense of well being so much as what I bring to these relationships. My mentioning this isn't to say that you'd have the same issue, but to illustrate that different people bring out different aspects of an issue for us. Finding more or different people isn't always so helpful as much as gaining insight on the issue that keeps cropping up in various ways.

i also encourage Mr. Ravenscroft to skim your blog to perhaps gain a better understanding of the marriage relationship here, which is one of the most shining examples we have on this forum of harmonious and long term polyamory.

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

The agreements I've made with my boyfriend are between me and him, they don't have anything to do with the agreements I make with my husband, other than that I have to be sure I can keep both sets.

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Oh, you seem like such a nice person... but at this minute I can't think of a nice roundabout way to say that's a pile of utter nonsense, in particular because I'm certain we were both just referring to mutual veto power -- how would this NOT affect the otherloves of you & your husband??

Perhaps one of us blinked; for clarification purposes, here's the line to which I referred --

Part of it is that my husband and I naively promised each other that non monogamy was just an experiment and we'd stop immediately if either of us wanted to

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And, yes, I understand that you amended that... well, sort of.

I don't have that sense of an emergency brake this time around.

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So, the rule has been explicitly removed, then? Extracted, killed, & buried?

...or is it still there, untouched, a dormant tumor that might remain forever benign & might also be invoked at any moment?

This really wasn't at all clear in the original post.

But my base point is that whatever happens with one of your relationships WILL affect your other relationships. If your head is all abuzz with thoughts of one, it's much more difficult to be "in the moment" when you're with another. If you've just had a tiff with X on the phone, this attenuates your attention to Y.

The agreements, rules, boundaries to which you agree do indeed affect the people closest to you, even those whose name isn't on the metaphorical contract. Perhaps moreso because, unless you TELL (say) X what's in your agreement with Y, then X is totally in the dark as to the limits under which you are operating.

FallenAngelina said:

i also encourage Mr. Ravenscroft to skim your blog to perhaps gain a better understanding of the marriage relationship here, which is one of the most shining examples we have on this forum of harmonious and long term polyamory.

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That would be ridiculous.

If background reading is necessary in order to grasp the nuances, then this thread should not have existed, with the question confined to the blog's readership, & the polished expertise & stunning wit of those such as yourself.

FallenAngelina said:

Having followed your blog, I get the sense that you feel a basic security with your husband and a basic insecurity with Dag. Before exploring additional relationships, you might consider identifying the specific places inside yourself where you feel secure with one and insecure with the other. Maybe ask yourself (and I don't know, i'm just asking you to think about) why it is that you can build such a firm bedrock of security with your husband, but not with Dag. You've actually thought a lot about this in your blog and I encourage you to keep going with that. Additional partners of yours and Dag's are going to illuminate this question more for you, so adding more people really will only serve you in the long run, but if you're not clear about what's underlying your basic insecurity with Dag, it might be a rough go to get to the illumination.

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I wish I knew why I feel so little security with Dag. I do wonder if his having other partners, or at least the opportunity for them, and still wanting me in his life, would help with that.

I'll mention that for me, a lot of my insecurities were/are tied to the extent to which I feel sexually and romantically drawn to a person. There may or may not be a corollary for you, but perhaps the idea can help. I have found that I'm able to allow an enormous breadth of freedom and feel very secure when romantic and sexual feelings are just simmering. When I feel super attracted sexually, all of my deep abandonment issues come roaring up to the surface. I can easily "do poly" with some people and with others....um.....no. I have found that other people and relationship style choices don't affect my sense of well being so much as what I bring to these relationships. My mentioning this isn't to say that you'd have the same issue, but to illustrate that different people bring out different aspects of an issue for us. Finding more or different people isn't always so helpful as much as gaining insight on the issue that keeps cropping up in various ways.

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The intensity of our sexual connection is a big one, yes. It's just SO RARE for me to find that. It's not that I think sex is the end all be all... Quite the opposite. Sexual attraction and connection is so rare in my life that I've learned to have wonderful, deep, loving, important relationships that aren't sexual at all. But when I do find that chemistry? It's ALWAYS a game changer.

Magdlyn mentioned recently that I'm operating with a scarcity model, and when it comes to sex? Yes, yes I am! Because I know from experience that, heading back into the dating pool, it will take me hundreds of false starts to find that chemistry. I need deep emotional connection, but that alone isn't enough for good sex, I also need ... Some weird stars aligning chemistry thing.

All of which is too say... I've got this good thing, that is hard for me to find, and I'm having a hard time with the idea of sharing it!

Ravenscroft said:

So, the rule has been explicitly removed, then? Extracted, killed, & buried?

...or is it still there, untouched, a dormant tumor that might remain forever benign & might also be invoked at any moment?

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Oh. I thought my use of the word "naively" and the little eye rolling symbol would have made that clear. No, we don't have veto power.

We never had a veto in the sense you use it. We ventured into non-monogamy (the sexual part of it, anyway) with the understanding that it might make us uncomfortable, and we might have to talk about it, renegotiate boundaries, MAYBE even one of us would say, you have to choose, poly or me.

And before we had other partners? We assumed we'd choose each other over poly. Now that strikes me as stupid. I lived, I learned. But opening up is harder when you can't fall back on comforting illusions.

Honestly, we have never had a situation we couldn't talk our way through, poly related or other. And the idea of a veto strikes me as silly, because we're not the boss of each other, nor do we rule our lives as a committee. We're grown ups. We do what we want. The other may or may not stick around.

The issue I'm having is not with my husband. He isn't part of the "no new partners" agreement, either in the sense of having authored it or being bound by it. That's MY agreement with MY BOYFRIEND. My husband doesn't give a crap about it. I don't give a crap what he thinks about it.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. I will say, it's strange that on a site that works so hard to debunk couple privilege, I still have to fight the assumption that all of my issues are related to my husband

Hi, GirlFromTexlahoma!

I haven't got the Internet time to follow the blogs of everybody on this forum and yours looks long enough to convince me that I couldn't do it justice at this stage. (I'm on a binge of Internet activity just now, a rare time of 24/7 access.) But judging by what you write on this thread and what FallenAngelina writes here about your blog, you have a really solid and healthy poly relationship with your husband. Total success story.

I'm only going to deal with things that you've brought up on this thread.

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

I don't identify as poly. For me it's an option; I can be happy mono, I can be happy poly. [...] I can get my "love other people" needs from friendship, and restricting the possibility of sex/romance with others doesn't bother me.

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And yet you're getting into a [minor] funk about the possibility of losing Dag.

Aside from the fact that I see no reason why you should lose him, IF you do, you'll be able - as you say - to get your "love other people" needs from friendships. OK, so the sex with Dag is out of this world, and it would be a shame to lose it, But, as I said, I see no reason why you should. Keep the communication channels open and it's less likely to happen. Have trust.

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

I absolutely want to encourage his growth. I want happiness and the best life possible for him. It's still scary, though!

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Life IS scary when it's lived to the full. Important is also that you should want happiness and the best life possible for yourself.

Your problem seems to be a lack of self-confidence. Be assured that you are worthy of being loved and an attractive enough person (and I don't mean that about your looks, not having a clue what you look like - I assume that that's not a PHOTO that you use as your avatar) for Dag to continue to be attracted.

I'm not saying that your relationship with him is all about sex, but if the sex is really good between the 2 of you from your POV, don't you trust that it is from his? Enough for him not to throw you over for some NRE?

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

I don't have that agreement with my husband anymore, obviously (or maybe it's not obvious?)

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It was perfectly obvious to me.

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

At this point [my husband and I] just talk through things, with the understanding that at some point, one or both of us might be unhappy enough to say, "look, if we can't go back to monogamy, I'm out." But we don't expect to be able to dictate each other's choices. And so far we haven't had any poly related issues we couldn't solve fairly easily. [...]

I guess the best I can do is what I do with my husband - talk it through and be honest if an open model isn't working.

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Amen to that!

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

I wish I knew why I feel so little security with Dag. I do wonder if his having other partners, or at least the opportunity for them, and still wanting me in his life, would help with that.

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Only one way to find out...

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

No, we don't have veto power. ... And the idea of a veto strikes me as silly

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What's a superlative for "excellent!"? Really, it seems such a common trap that this is great to hear.

I don't want to drag things afield, but this puzzles me --

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

it's strange that on a site that works so hard to debunk couple privilege, I still have to fight the assumption that all of my issues are related to my husband

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That was not my intent, & looking at the foregoing I don't see where couplehood could be seen to figure into it at all.

In TA, the Dread Veto is the Parent peremptorily pulling rank on the Child "because I'm THE MOM, that's why!" without overt recourse to reason. Sure, vetoism is often an artefact of monogamistic thinking, but one does not always imply the other.

And, again, it wasn't me that brought veto power into the conversation -- given this mention, I was puzzled as to its actual place in the present. That's now clarified, right?

Ravenscroft said:

I don't want to drag things afield, but this puzzles me --

That was not my intent, & looking at the foregoing I don't see where couplehood could be seen to figure into it at all.

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What bothered me was that I asked for help dealing with an issue that had come up in my relationship with my boyfriend - and you jumped immediately to trying to analyze my relationship with my husband. Wondering how all this affected my husband. As though the wife-and-husband relationship is the "real" relationship, and the other doesn't merit advice or attention.

I'm not going to say the two relationships have nothing to do with each other - the guys are casual friends, there is the usual balancing act of time and energy, etc. But my husband doesn't make decisions about how I do things with my boyfriend. I do. Yes, I let him know what's going on, yes, I'd listen if he had concerns. But the decision is mine.

MrFarFromRight said:

And yet you're getting into a [minor] funk about the possibility of losing Dag.

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Poly is optional, specific people are not. I'd be happy with friendship with Dag, even without the amazing sex. But I fear losing that, too... See reasons below

Your problem seems to be a lack of self-confidence. Be assured that you are worthy of being loved and an attractive enough person (and I don't mean that about your looks, not having a clue what you look like - I assume that that's not a PHOTO that you use as your avatar) for Dag to continue to be attracted.

I'm not saying that your relationship with him is all about sex, but if the sex is really good between the 2 of you from your POV, don't you trust that it is from his? Enough for him not to throw you over for some NRE?

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The big problem is TIME. I am a person who needs regular in person time to feel connected. Right now I regularly feel ignored or unimportant because I get so little time with Dag (we average one date a week, which typically lasts just a few hours). When I imagine him dating others, I mentally divide that time by 2, or even 3 - and it drops to a point that feels pointless for me. My time isn't endless, either. If I start dating others, that also reduces our time together.

When I wallow in the doomsday scenarios, I don't imagine Dag dumping me. I imagine our time together dwindling, our phone calls and texts becoming fewer, our dates devoted to catching up on each other's month. In which case, I'd leave the relationship, because that isn't enough connection for me to feel valued. So I'm less worried about him "throwing me over" and more about the reality of juggling.

IME, though, the agreements, rules, boundaries to which you agree do indeed affect the people closest to you, even those whose name isn't on the metaphorical contract. Perhaps moreso because, unless you TELL (say) X what's in your agreement with Y, then X is totally in the dark as to the limits under which you are operating.

IMHO in the "generic" case of (re)opening a relationship all the advice you've read for previously monogamous couples applies (less the couple priviledge perhaps). Discuss your intentions, agree on the model, go slowly, check in often and deal with issues that come up (don't let problems become big), make new partners feel welcome and valued.

But you've only told us real problem just now, didn't you?

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

The big problem is TIME. I am a person who needs regular in person time to feel connected. Right now I regularly feel ignored or unimportant because I get so little time with Dag (we average one date a week, which typically lasts just a few hours). When I imagine him dating others, I mentally divide that time by 2, or even 3 - and it drops to a point that feels pointless for me. My time isn't endless, either. If I start dating others, that also reduces our time together.

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I think you'll have to have a conversation about his intentions, now, before you go ahead. If he finds a partner, will he have to divide his time? Or is he actually able to find more time for dating? (I imagine this might be hard to hear too.) Or is he not that much interested in another dating partners as in some kind of flirt and one-time hookups, so that this will be rare or fall more into his "friends" time then "dating" time?

What is it actually about being closed that bothers Dag? Doesn't he feel poly-saturated?

Ravenscroft said:

IME, though, the agreements, rules, boundaries to which you agree do indeed affect the people closest to you, even those whose name isn't on the metaphorical contract. Perhaps moreso because, unless you TELL (say) X what's in your agreement with Y, then X is totally in the dark as to the limits under which you are operating.

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For me it's not an always or never thing.

Could it possibly affect my husband if I start seeing new partners? Absolutely, and we talked about it. Took about 5 minutes, with the agreement to visit if I actually meet somebody worth more than a coffee date.

Does it affect him if I stop seeking new people? Not really. We don't date together. He doesn't try to fix me up. It doesn't interfere with his life for me to take down my okc profile. So, yes, I told him, we're big talkers but it was a tell, not an ask. If -anyone- had an issue with my decision to not sleep with any new people, I'd tell them very nicely to fuck off

Tinwen said:

I think you'll have to have a conversation about his intentions, now, before you go ahead. If he finds a partner, will he have to divide his time? Or is he actually able to find more time for dating? (I imagine this might be hard to hear too.) Or is he not that much interested in another dating partners as in some kind of flirt and one-time hookups, so that this will be rare or fall more into his "friends" time then "dating" time?

What is it actually about being closed that bothers Dag? Doesn't he feel poly-saturated?

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Well, the few hours a week I see him are Dag's only time away from work and family, sooooo...

I know, intellectually, that I should just explain MY needs, and see if he's still meeting them if/when he starts dating others. But I'm having trouble behaving rationally these days

Dag is going through a bit of a self discovery phase. He talks a lot about how he feels being polyamorous is a core part of his being, stuff like that. Because of the way his marriage works, he's never felt free to be open about that, and he wants that to change. He wants to "live authentically". He wants to explore, make connections, discover what it means to relate to the world as a poly-identified individual.

I think that's awesome. I'm happy to support him, but I know a lot of my boundaries and limits already. I know I need regular face time, and lots of contact in between. I know I get burnt out trying to balance three or more intense relationships. I know I don't enjoy casual sex. Dag has never tried that stuff, casual relationships, LDRs, having lots of partners.

So in a way, it IS like a mono couple first opening up, where I have NO CLUE how my partner will handle any of it.

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

I know, intellectually, that I should just explain MY needs, and see if he's still meeting them if/when he starts dating others. But I'm having trouble behaving rationally these days

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I have NO CLUE how my partner will handle any of it.

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Actually, I think you should ask about his idea how to handle time. Ask him to be honest and not to withhold his intentions out of "consideration" because that would not be considerate. Ask him to specify his view on the practicalities of dating others.

From what you wrote, Dag sounds like a dreamer and big talker, who has plenty of ideas but disregards reality. Lets get an apartment together! Lets date a bunch of people! I suggest to find out if he has a plan, listen openmindedly if he does, or force him back to the ground (to make room his own life first) if he doesn't.

GirlFromTexlahoma said:

Well, the few hours a week I see him are Dag's only time away from work and family, sooooo...

I know, intellectually, that I should just explain MY needs, and see if he's still meeting them if/when he starts dating others. But I'm having trouble behaving rationally these days

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Yeah, that is basically it. It seems to me you are really over-thinking this and making it more complicated than it has to be.

You say, "Okay our relationship is open now. I do my thing and date other people and you do yours, but here is what I need from you to still feel like we've got a relationship, and a strong connection..." and then tell him the amount of time you want/need each week with him, the ability to ask him for help, him being more accessible, perhaps a regular time to talk on the phone, whatever. And trust that he will hear you. If he doesn't step up, then you have a choice to make.

You do seem to have some sort of resistance to making a clear choice for your life and living with it. You seem to want Dag to choose for you. You want him to take the lead in making these kinds of relationship decisions, but I don't think he will.

I also think Tinwen made a good point about Dag's tendency not to follow through. Basically, until he actually, decisively takes action and makes a date with someone, it's all a fantasy in his head, like the apartment he wanted to share with you. I doubt he'll rush right out and pursue anyone for a date. With his track record, he'll probably mull it over in his mind another six months before he has any courage to do so. So, you really have very little to worry about. Go be open, date other guys.

And so what if you have many, many dates before you meet someone sexually compatible? Don't think of them as "false starts." That is so unfair to you and your dates. In dating, IMHO, the goal should be to have a good time meeting and getting to know new people - it shouldn't be an interview process to see if they fit into the role of boyfriend/hot sex provider. That will only set both of you up for disappointment.

Let me repeat: let yourself have a good time!