When to Quit?

I think this is mostly a "have I lost my mind and dignity" question... and I know what type of answers I might be in for, so I'm going to try to take what I get without doing my usual wordy-analytical thing that makes people think I'm arguing with them.

As I've been posting in my blog, S2 and I are... well, undetermined, I guess. We were in a relationship until the beginning of June, when he asked to "downgrade to platonic," as he put it. He and his ex-wife are finally filing for divorce, and that's causing him a lot of stress and angst about relationships in general. He said he wanted to be able to focus on that and on a couple of other stressful things in his life, and that he didn't want to be a "bad boyfriend" to me by not being able to give me as much time and attention.

At the time, he said he hoped to "re-upgrade" once he got through all of it. Now he says nothing's set in stone, and he'd rather not think about the future until it happens.

Back in June, he said the amount of time we spent together wouldn't change, and that we would still do all the things we'd made plans for. Now, we're only seeing each other once some weeks (it used to be twice every week), and I'm apparently no longer welcome to spend weekends at his place even though in June he said that would still happen. And he has a date for this coming Saturday, which was a day we'd scheduled for a camping trip together. To be fair, he forgets things when he doesn't look at his calendar, and I believe he did forget this was the weekend we were going on that trip, but still.

And-- he has a date. Even though he's supposedly "on a break" from dating. He said it was because she asked him after they were introduced by mutual friends. He said he's going mostly out of curiosity, because he's only been on one other date with someone other than me since he left his ex. He also said that going on this date might actually be a good thing for *us*, a statement which made sense in context but explaining the context would take too long.

At the time he asked for the downgrade, he said it was about him, not me, but a couple weeks ago he admitted that my anxiety disorder was a factor, though far from the only one. He said as my boyfriend, he was never sure how to handle my anxiety attacks (I'd had three during the time we were calling it a relationship), but as my "friend or whatever we are" it's easier because he doesn't feel the pressure to make everything better. He did say that he understands I can't always control the anxiety, and that it isn't going to go away, and that it is NOT a factor in whether we "re-upgrade" in the future. It was just more than he could manage with the other stuff going on.

We've established that he has a lot of negative history and associations around the words "love" and "relationship", based on past experiences and on his own not-always-reasonable expectations of what those things mean. So right now, I'm trying to play along with his preferred method of not labeling things and not aiming for any particular future, but just seeing how things go over time. This is VERY tough for me, but I'm doing my best.

Here's the thing. I do love him. I've told him so more than once, though I never said it a lot. I do believe he loves me, even though he's said he doesn't, because we've talked about that. He's agreed that one of the biggest reasons for him saying he doesn't love me is the fear and expectations. I wrote out a long thing for him about what "love" means from my perspective, and what signs I see when someone loves me, and after he read it he said a lot of things on that list fit how he treats me and how he acts around me. So while he'll say he doesn't love me, if someone says they think he does, he won't deny it. (I told him I thought he loved me and was just so afraid of the word and the pressure that he couldn't acknowledge it, and not only did he not deny it, he agreed.)

A couple of weeks before he asked for the downgrade, he told me he was going to have a lot on his plate and couldn't guarantee he would be there for me the way he had been. I promised I would do my best to do what he needed so it would be easier for him, and I've promised him more than once that I'll do everything I can not to hurt him, because he's told me he's been hurt in the past. Those two promises are why I'm still sticking this out right now.

But it hurts. It hurts to know he's going on a date with someone else. Since he and I aren't having sex right now, it hurts to think he might with her--and yes, I am trying like hell not to think about it, and I told him not to tell me if he does. It hurts to realize that it might be like this with him for...however long I allow it; that there might be no chance of us ever going back to the way things were.

I've told him that. He said he hates seeing me hurt, and hates even more that he's the cause, and that he knows I always keep promises but he's relieving me of the responsibility of keeping the ones I've made to him if it means I'll be happier. I told him that right at that moment (this was before I found out about his date), keeping my promises felt like the right thing to do, and he looked relieved.

He treats me better in general than anyone else has. Even now when we're together, his attention is completely focused on me. We still cuddle, hug, and even sometimes kiss good night (just a peck on the lips, though). He still says he's never met anyone more compatible with him than I am, and his AFF profile still says he's "attached", as it has since we first determined we were in a relationship, and every time I mention it he says he isn't changing it. From my side, even though he's told me he's okay with me seeing other people if I want to... I don't want to. I'd rather spend platonic nights watching TV with him than get back on the dating/sex treadmill, because I know damn well I'm not going to find anyone I "click" with the way I do with him.

So... reality check, please. Am I crazy for sticking this out even though there's no way to even guess whether we'll go back to the way things were, or stay the same, or end up completely done? Or am I crazy for struggling to accept this for what it is now, which is good but I keep missing the way things used to be (especially sex, even if it was boring at times...), and for worrying about the future? Or am I crazy for entirely other reasons...

Yes you are crazy to hold out hope. Someone who wants you will fight for you. He sounds like he is trying to do the gentle fade out. He cares about you but cannot handle or doesn't want a romantic relationship with you, but likes you enough that he doesn't want to hurt you.

If you love him set him free.

I've been down graded to platonic because he wants to take a break from relationships yet he's going on a date!? Um yeah that would be the END of that. He's a chicken shit who can't just be honest with you about not wanting to be your boyfriend

To me it sounds like he told you in June that he wants to be friends because dating you right now stresses him out for many reasons. And he did not call it a "break up" because he prefers the "soft" worded break up instead. Whether worded "hard" or "soft" - for practical purposes it is still a break up though.

Whatever it is called, you guys are not a romantic couple at this time. You could accept it as a break up and be friends. Clean up your action behaviors and thought behaviors and keep them in the friend zone.

Go no contact for a month so you can heal from (the old thing.)

THEN see how to be friends together (the new thing.)

Something more clear cut and not this fuzzy thing. Because it sounds like that fuzzy approach is leaving you rattled.

I don't want to. I'd rather spend platonic nights watching TV with him than get back on the dating/sex treadmill, because I know damn well I'm not going to find anyone I "click" with the way I do with him.

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Denial is one of the stages of mourning. I think you are mourning loss of the romance.

I see you keep hanging on to some behaviors post break up (cuddles, kisses) that don't let your emotions settle or your brain move him to the friend zone. Probably because you don't want it to be over and are fighting against it.

It's ok to visit with him as a friend, but if you are cuddling and kissing it is hardly platonic. If that behavior keeps you pining away for him? You could stop doing cuddle and kissing behaviors so you can stop pining and eventually feel better.

He still says he's never met anyone more compatible with him than I am, and his AFF profile still says he's "attached", as it has since we first determined we were in a relationship, and every time I mention it he says he isn't changing it.

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You could ask him directly and firmly to stop telling you unless he is asking you to get back together.

You could ask him to remove it from his profile because you are "downgraded" and broken up. He might not like the words, but YOU can use the words that make sense to YOU.

Because those are some more "fuzzy things" right now that make you uncomfortable when you are not a romantic couple. They don't help you maintain clear cut boundaries as friends. What they DO do is help keep you in pining away mode.

You sound like you do not like being in pining away mode.

So straighten stuff up so you can be free of it.

Galagirl

Personally I think it's a little weird that he suddenly had a date exactly a week after telling you it "wasn't a right now" thing. I think a number of mixed messages he's given you are concerning. Like when he kept saying he wasn't looking to date before but was constantly tweaking his dating profile, or like when he told you he'd inform you when he had sex with someone else but didn't until he had an std scare. It doesn't add up that he needs a break from dating to focus on his personal issues but is open to new dates. I don't think you're crazy, and I don't think these are your issues with not trusting people. It looks like you're trying very hard to trust what he says but it just doesn't match his actions. I'd tell him to inform this new date of what he told you.

that he's dealing with the end of his marriage and feels like that's where his energy and focus need to be. He's afraid to start a new "serious relationship" given how his marriage ended, and given how things were in the relationships he had before he met his ex-wife.

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and see if she's still interested.

If you actually want to be friends, you should be friends, he's been a decent friend. If it's tearing you up because you want more, you should walk away.

Hi KC43,

I don't know that there are any right or wrong answers here; the thing is just that you need to figure out what you really want here. Do you want to continue with S2 as a platonic friend, or would it be less painful to cut the ties?

One thing is that if you decide to continue with S2 as a platonic friend, you should probably do so without hoping or expecting to be re-upgraded in the future. I have a feeling that's not going to happen. At best if it does happen it probably won't happen for a long, long time. Maybe the thing to do is decide how long is too long to wait?

You seem skeptical about the chances of finding a new man who's as good for you as S2 has been. Perhaps that's a good reason to maintain a friendship with him? but as I said, you should probably resign yourself that a friendship is all it's ever likely to be.

The fact that he's dating other people is one reason why I doubt you'll be re-upgraded. I hope I'm wrong.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

He may be a nice man, but even reffering to it as down-or upgrade sounds unpleasant to me. It doesn't sound respectful. I will never understand the reluctance some people have to just saying that it is over. I don't think at this point you should even be friends, rather take some time off to heal the loss of your romantic relationship without him becoming noise in your grief.

It sounds like to me he is trying to let you down easy. I think that is more harmful than good, in most instances, because the communication gets fuzzy and it's not very clear.

If I were you, I would let him go. I agree that if you want to keep him in your life, then there needs to be a cooling off period so you can change your view of him to just friendship.

I'm sorry that this is probably not what you want to hear.

Thanks for the feedback, all.

kkxvlv, I wanted to clarify one thing from your post. *Before* the STD scare, we didn't have an agreement to tell each other about sex with others. The part about telling each other if we'd had sex with another partner came about *because of* the STD thing.

Dagferi, it's more about setting myself free, I think...

GalaGirl, the cuddling benefits both of us because we both find touch soothing. I've had a similar level of physical contact with other guy friends in the past when it's been clearly nothing more than friendship. So far that's been the least complicated/confusing part of this for me. I do see what you mean, though, that it could be part of the problem, and the rest of what you've said makes sense.

Kevin, I'm not seeing *this* date as an indication of anything in particular; it hurts, but it's a single date. If it becomes an ongoing thing, it would be more of an indication that re-upgrading isn't possible. The "to friend or not to friend" thing is the real question. I don't want to pine, as GalaGirl put it. At the same time, thinking about my life without him in it at all seems worse than just being friends with him.

No matter what you do it'll hurt, won't it.

Yeah, it will... but there's temporary pain and long-term.

I saw S2 last night, since we have a standing Wednesday night thing. I told him I felt like him going on a date when he's "taking a break" is dishonest, especially when he said something that implied he might be open to continuing to see the other woman if the date goes well. I said if he means he's taking a break from *me*, he needs to say so, but either way right now he's being dishonest to me, or to her, or to himself, or some combination. And I told him to stop backtracking or only telling me part of the truth to "soften the blow," because it's bullshit for him to do that when I've told him over and over I'd rather be hurt by honesty than happy with a lie.

He gave me his usual "I don't know what I want, I just know things aren't where I want them" answer. And then said that even though he's unhappy much of the time, I'm one of the few things in his life that he's happy about, and that his ultimate goal is not to hurt me. (I told him he's already failed at that. He said he was sorry.)

I told him that a lot of times lately, I feel lied to, unwanted, and disrespected, and that I'd considered walking away, at least temporarily, so I wouldn't end up hating him. I said that wasn't something I really wanted to do, but sometimes it seems easier. He said, "I don't want you to walk away either, but maybe it would give me the kick in the ass I need to figure out what the hell I want."

We left it at that last night, along with him saying that the main reason for the date is that he has only been on one other date with one other woman since leaving his ex and he wants to see how it feels to be with someone else. I said I could accept that, but that he has to be honest with me, and with her--and most importantly, with himself.

But... even with that, I think those of you who've said I should step back, at least for a while, are right. For my own sake at least, but given the reason he stated for the date and his "maybe it'll give me a kick in the ass" comment, I think it would benefit him as well. I'm planning to put a time limit on it; we've made tentative plans to take Country, Beads, and Spikes on a hike at the end of the month, so I'm planning to tell S2 that I won't see him until a couple days before the hike. That will give us about three weeks apart, which might not be enough, but it'll at least give him a taste of not having me around.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

Now it's just a matter of being able to stick with the plan when I see him. I'm supposed to go to his place Sunday to work on some music stuff (and I guess to find out how the date went, or at least whether he's planning to see her again), and I'm going to stick with that because if I have this discussion with him, I need to do it face to face.

The thought of it really hurts, and part of me is afraid that if he has space from me, he'll realize he's better off without me and that will be the final end of all of it. But at the same time, I think it will be good for him to have that space so he can see whether I actually do fit in his life, and it will be good for me so I'll either realize *he* doesn't fit in *my* life, or I'll at least have the transition that never really happened between "relationship" and whatever we have now.

Because it hurts and because of my fear, though, along with the promise I made to him to always try not to hurt him, I am aware that I might get to his place Sunday and not be able to go through with it. I have a few days to wrap my head around it. When I left his place last night, I was completely convinced it was the right thing to do, but now I'm second-guessing.

Don't second-guess yourself ... Stick to your plan.

Three weeks is reasonable.

Stick with your plan. Focus on your desired outcome:

it will be good for me so I'll either realize *he* doesn't fit in *my* life, or I'll at least have the transition that never really happened between "relationship" and whatever we have now.

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I think the solution to "thoughts flitting around and around" is decisiveness and follow-through. So now that you have a plan, stick with it and follow through.

Muddy waters will calm, settle, and bring some clarity... but only if you refrain from stirring up the bucket.

I encourage you to take the time out and do nothing.

Galagirl

I think you are right to step away for some time. His comment sounds to me like he would like that but is constrained, as you are, by the impossible promises not to hurt each other. You cannot be in a relationship with another human being without there being the chance that you will hurt each other. Since he is having trouble giving the two of you the breathing/thinking room you both need, you are wise to do so yourself. Then the two of you can approach things from healthier, more centered emotional states. I am rooting for you.

Leetah

I didn't promise I wouldn't hurt him; I promised I would *try my best* not to hurt him. And he didn't make me any promises, just keeps saying that hurting me is the last thing he wants to do because he wants to clobber anyone who hurts me, and that includes himself. For whatever sense that makes.

I think, based on the talk he and I had the other night, that part of him genuinely doesn't know what he wants right now. Which is fine. I get that; I've been there. But while he says whatever he wants definitely means keeping me in his life in some way, I think he needs to get his thoughts straightened out a bit more.

I have three questions I'm going to ask him to consider while we're apart: Is he happier with me in his life than without me; can he be completely honest with me about how he feels and what he thinks (to the extent that he knows himself); and if someone else told him to cut me out of his life, would he refuse?

Meanwhile, I'll also be considering three questions: Am I happier with him in my life than without him; can I let go of worrying about the future and accept what we have between us in the moment; and would I truly be able to handle it if he had a relationship with someone else instead of me? (*Instead of* as opposed to *in addition to*... I'm pretty sure I could handle him being in a relationship with me and with someone else, it's a question of whether I can squelch my fear and jealousy enough to deal with him being "just friends" with me while in a relationship with someone else.)

Pretty much, if we're going to continue being in each other's life, each of us is going to need to be able to answer yes to all of the questions. The reason I'm including the one for him about whether he would refuse to cut me out of his life on someone else's say-so is that to me, if you care about someone and they matter to you, you're going to fight to keep them in your life no matter what anyone else says. If he can legitimately tell me that he *would* cut me out of his life if another woman told him to, that says to me that I don't matter enough to him to be in his life in the first place.

Between trying to get my head straight for this discussion with him and the knowledge that his date with the other woman is tomorrow, I'm kind of a wreck today. My biggest fear is that he'll go on his date tomorrow and then tell me he's going to keep seeing her and doesn't want to spend time with me in any way anymore. I do recognize that that's a *fear*, not a probability. I've expressed the fear to him and he said he doesn't see any chance of that happening, but then again, it's hard to take anything he says at face value right now.

I do sympathize about how you're feeling. Sometimes we just feel bad and there isn't any way to feel better, at least not right away. I know that from personal experience.

I hope things go okay with your talk with S2 on Sunday.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

I don't get to talk to him today. At least not face to face. He texted me and said he needed a "rain check" because of a time crunch. I called him and asked point blank if it was because of timing or because he doesn't want to see me. He said he wants to see me, but...

His date went well yesterday. So now he's in a relationship with her. And since she's "been burned" he doesn't know if she would even be okay with him being friends with me.

I told him if he would allow her to dictate whether we're friends, I clearly don't matter to him as much as he said. He mumbled something about there's more than one level of friendship, and we could still go for walks on his lunch breaks and still work on the band stuff and so on.

I said I can't even be around him right now. I need time to figure out whether I can be his friend under those restrictions. I've unfriended him on Facebook, and I'm trying to untangle all the other shit. I don't know whether to get rid of the band stuff, because he said he does still want to do that, but I don't know whether *I* do. Or whether I can, or how he figures we would practice and record if his new girlfriend doesn't want him to spend time with me.

He said he never meant to hurt me. I said not to worry about it, because since everyone fucks me over eventually, I shouldn't have expected anything different from him. I don't feel great about saying that, but it's been said.

When to quit? Now, I guess. Why bother letting anyone else into my life when this will just end up happening again? Hubby's hurt me enough on his own, and now this, with the one person I thought I could count on to at least keep me in his life in some way.

It hurts. It just fucking hurts.

Honestly I think he did try to let you down nicely...

His actions were screaming you guys were over even if sometimes you felt his words said otherwise.

Now you need to go NC with him and deal with your new life. Never make someone a priority who sees you as an option.