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  #41  
Old 05-29-2011, 02:46 PM
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Yes, we have been losing, and have lost, a lot. Especially in "advanced" (capitalist-industrial modern) society, which commodifies nearly everything.

From - http://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/2...-movement.html :

"...Of course, one of the big unanswered questions is why is jealousy such a powerful emotion, especially if monogamy was never meant to be such a big deal, and paternity certainty isn't as paramount as we at first thought. The standard evolutionary explanation holds that jealousy helps to ensure paternity certainty — making a man more sure about whether a child who emerges from a new mother's loins is his own. But Ryan argues this is a cultural construct with an economic justification. In its basic form, he says, jealousy is just fear of losing something that seems essential. "If you look at sexuality as a commodity — as it is now and has been for 10,000 years, more or less — it makes perfect sense that people are very afraid of losing it, because like all other commodities, it exists in the context of scarcity," he says. "So we fear losing our lover or relationship because we can't imagine ever replacing that feeling that we get from that person — that feeling of security, that feeling of intimacy. "If you imagine a society in which sexual pleasure — and intimacy and companionship and help with the kids and all the rest of it — was not a commodity and was not a scarce commodity, then people wouldn't be scared of losing it."..."


Edit:

Is it not obvious that the taboo on non-monogamy ("enforced monogamy") actually creates crucial conditions of scarcity in the love-sex domain? If we overtrow this cultural norm, we likely won't have so much of that addictive seeking after surrugate needs (as I like to call them). Examples of "surrogate needs" are consumerism / materialism and status-seeking--which addictive pursuits not only tend to erode the quality of our relationships with one another, but with all of life (as in environmental, ecological destruction). I see the modern world as a vast surrogate needs machine fueld by (a) being out of touch with our real needs and (b) seeking instead the culture's advertised and sanctioned pseudo needs and wants. Mainstream American culture (for exampe) needs us to devote ourselves to pseudo needs and pseudo lives, in which we are chronically unfulfilled. Our insatiable desire is its main product, with which it hopes to grow the GDP into the stratosphere. Gawd forbid that people should find greater satisfaction leading materially simple lives focussed on quality relationships and non-consumptive pleasures!
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Last edited by River; 05-29-2011 at 08:08 PM.
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  #42  
Old 05-30-2011, 01:18 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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River (and any other interersted readers),

You might also appreciate a book called "The Transformation" by George Leonard.

It's an older book - now out of print - but likely copies are available second hand via Amazon or such. I know I got a copy for a special friend a couple years back.

Here's a link to an interview I found with George. He was a senior editor for Look magazine and I believe a VP of the Easlen Institute a few years back.
Interesting thinker and writer.

http://www.intuition.org/txt/leonard.htm

GS
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  #43  
Old 05-31-2011, 02:34 PM
Ready2Fly Ready2Fly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River View Post
Is it not obvious that the taboo on non-monogamy ("enforced monogamy") actually creates crucial conditions of scarcity in the love-sex domain? If we overtrow this cultural norm, we likely won't have so much of that addictive seeking after surrugate needs (as I like to call them).
I think it is. I recently read an excellent blog post on exactly this idea here.

I don't think that jealousy IS "such a strong emotion" that vast litanies of evolutionary apology need to be written for it. It's nothing more than the fear/anger of losing something you own/have, and when we cease to feel as if we own our partners, we cease to feel jealousy. But we live in a culture of ownership that cultivates and idealizes jealousy. The culture of compulsory monogamy constantly sends messages that jealousy is the natural result of your partner "straying" (as opposed to the jealous person's own insecurities), and so we're all strongly conditioned from a very young age to feel it, and then attribute it to others' behavior.

This conditioning allows mates to control each other by telling each other that they're jealous--- since jealousy is always supposed to be due to external influence, only a change in one's *partner's* (not one's own) behavior can address it. Thus jealousy is a cultural tool for monogamy enforcement and power in relationships. But at it's root, it's nothing but fear of loss, not much different from fear of losing your house or car.
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  #44  
Old 05-31-2011, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ready2Fly View Post
It's nothing more than the fear/anger of losing something you own/have, and when we cease to feel as if we own our partners, we cease to feel jealousy. But we live in a culture of ownership that cultivates and idealizes jealousy. The culture of compulsory monogamy constantly sends messages that jealousy is the natural result of your partner "straying" (as opposed to the jealous person's own insecurities), and so we're all strongly conditioned from a very young age to feel it, and then attribute it to others' behavior.

This conditioning allows mates to control each other by telling each other that they're jealous--- since jealousy is always supposed to be due to external influence, only a change in one's *partner's* (not one's own) behavior can address it. Thus jealousy is a cultural tool for monogamy enforcement and power in relationships. But at it's root, it's nothing but fear of loss, not much different from fear of losing your house or car.
Wow, R2F, I love how clearly you worded your post. You've really simplified things and made your viewpoint easy to understand (and hard to argue with)! Very, very cool - thank you!
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #45  
Old 06-02-2011, 08:18 PM
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I haven't read through this entire thread, but have skimmed much of it, and have read the book thoroughly. It put into words very clearly many of the things I already knew, and excellently explained their conclusions, many of which I agreed with before I even read it, just from my own study of Humanity, Anthropology (both physical and cultural).

I'm very curious how many of you have recommended this book to those you know and love but who are not aware of your polyamorous lives. I really want to tell everyone about this book, but I'm a little nervous that it'll "out" us. I have recommended it to my father, who has had fidelity issues for many years, and tremendous guilt because of it. I hope it'll help him understand himself a little better, and maybe relieve some of the guilt.
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  #46  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:06 AM
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SS, I just searched my e-book and the word polyamory only appears once in Sex at Dawn, the word polyamorous does not appear at all. It's basically about anthropology. Anyone would find it interesting.

And besides, just because you recommend a book doesn't automatically mean that you subscribe to everything in it -- and no one could really make any assumptions about how you live your life by what you recommend to read. I mean, all you have to say is "here's this interesting book, check it out."
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The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #47  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:21 AM
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TheBlackSwede TheBlackSwede is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
SS, I just searched my e-book and the word polyamory only appears once in Sex at Dawn, the word polyamorous does not appear at all. It's basically about anthropology. Anyone would find it interesting.

And besides, just because you recommend a book doesn't automatically mean that you subscribe to everything in it -- and no one could really make any assumptions about how you live your life by what you recommend to read. I mean, all you have to say is "here's this interesting book, check it out."
You're right, of course, and I know this... I even studied Anthropology, so I've got an "excuse". I'm still nervous about discussing my private life publicly. I guess deep down I'm afraid of being judged, just as I know my wife is.
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Old 06-03-2011, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SvartSvensk View Post
You're right, of course, and I know this... I even studied Anthropology, so I've got an "excuse". I'm still nervous about discussing my private life publicly. I guess deep down I'm afraid of being judged, just as I know my wife is.
But why do you think you have to discuss your private life at all, just because you like a book?
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The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #49  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:48 AM
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TheBlackSwede TheBlackSwede is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
But why do you think you have to discuss your private life at all, just because you like a book?
Because people are going to ask, declining to discuss it is tantamount to admission of guilt (despite what the 5th amendment may say), and I absolutely despise lying.
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:53 PM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SvartSvensk View Post
Because people are going to ask,.
I agree. People will want to know why you are interested for sure. That is completely normal. If someone sugested I read a book on cooking I would naturally assume that they like to cook and think I will be interested. Just the title of Sex At Dawn and general premise would invoke a lot of discussion as to why you were personally interested in it. It's too bad we live in a world where this even matters of course. It should be as innocent as recommending a sci-fi novel.
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