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  #51  
Old 03-06-2011, 06:27 PM
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ImaginaryIllusion ImaginaryIllusion is offline
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Originally Posted by disillusioned View Post
Instead of answers, I was attacked and my intentions questioned:
If you had questions, they were probably lost in the delivery of your message.

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Originally Posted by disillusioned View Post
I've been also flamed and when I posted a reply "flame" it has been removed (but the flaming post not) and I also asked to close the thread and that request was deleted too. (I think if I started a thread I should be allowed to close it).
Your report was examined by the mods, and was resolved with no action required as it wasn't a flame.
Your other post was removed as redundant since you had already reported the post.
And threads are not closed in general discussions just because the OP doesn't like the answers they get...it's a discussion...and it will be permitted to carry on so long as the discussion remains productive.

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Originally Posted by disillusioned View Post
That would be a deep, intellectual, abstract and philosophical argument. (sorry for being condescending, again - I became like that after being attacked, my motives questioned, not taken seriously, etc)
You have come onto the forum full of poly people and tried to preach poly to the converted. If in doing so they are not taking you seriously, then you should carefully look at why...it's probably not the message...it's your delivery (including the condescending tone)....which is pretty much all anyone here has had to say to you so far.
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  #52  
Old 03-06-2011, 06:30 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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Originally Posted by dragonflysky View Post
...I don't find it to be a particularly effective style of communication with the majority of the people I have counseled..and I have been in "the business" for 34 years.
I have to tell you something... I've been going to see a therapist for the last three months, because of the problems I have been having with my gf... I realized after a few weeks that at $150 an hour, it is not in the best interest of my therapist to help me. In fact, during one session she said something like "let me now put on the therapist hat and lets do psychology 101", and THEN we were really working, while usually she just listens to me and gives me the "and how does that make you feel" line... kind of shocking... She also told me one time "I don't want to be judgmental, but..." and I had to tell her "I WANT you to be judgmental!"

Crazy stuff ah?

I'm sorry but there is also such thing as "too much" sensitivity, and being "too much" politically correct, and too much "each person has his own journey". People can rarely see their own lives in perspective, and can't easily see what someone else can see from the side. I want to have my own journey, but I don't mind at all if someone would tell me - "you know son, I'm 70 years old, I've seen tons of things in my life and now let me tell you something: X, Y, Z!" and would be giving me some of his wisdom.

Kind of like that song - always put sunscreen. And honestly, I think that many times its out of selfishness and jealousy. People think to themselves - "I made so many mistakes, now let them make mistakes too!" How many teachers / parents are jealous of their students / children? Many... if not most.

Honestly - I've never been given any "wisdom" from anybody. Not my parents, not my teachers, not my therapist.... they teach you a bunch of useless things in school and then throw you into adulthood with zero preparation. They tell you "go be a lawyer" or "go be a doctor" and they don't even explain you why.

I'm sure it's not like that for everybody, some people have highly educated and intellectual parents but most of us............ Somehow the "human experience" is not really passed from one generation to the other... every generation starts all over again.

Maybe that's why this song resonated with so many people and was such a big hit, because it is so rare that we share any type of "wisdom" with each other. Here it is, if you don't know it:


Ladies and gentlemen of the class of '99: Wear sunscreen.

If I could offer you only one tip for the future, sunscreen would be it. The long-term benefits of sunscreen have been proved by scientists, whereas the rest of my advice has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.

I will dispense this advice now.

Enjoy the power and beauty of your youth. Oh, never mind. You will not understand the power and beauty of your youth until they've faded.

But trust me, in 20 years, you'll look back at photos of yourself and recall in a way you can't grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous you really looked.

You are not as fat as you imagine.

Don't worry about the future. Or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum. The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind, the kind that blindside you at 4 p.m. on some idle Tuesday.

Do one thing every day that scares you.

Sing.

Don't be reckless with other people's hearts. Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours.

Floss.

Don't waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself. Remember compliments you receive. Forget the insults. If you succeed in doing this, tell me how...

Keep your old love letters. Throw away your old bank statements.

Stretch.

Don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life. The most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives. Some of the most interesting 40-year-olds I know still don't.

Get plenty of calcium.

Be kind to your knees. You'll miss them when they're gone.

Maybe you'll marry, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have children, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll divorce at 40, maybe you'll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary.

Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much, or berate yourself either. Your choices are half chance. So are everybody else's.

Enjoy your body. Use it every way you can. Don't be afraid of it or of what other people think of it. It's the greatest instrument you'll ever own.

Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your living room. Read the directions, even if you don't follow them. Do not read beauty magazines. They will only make you feel ugly.

Get to know your parents. You never know when they'll be gone for good. Be nice to your siblings. They're your best link to your past and the people most likely to stick with you in the future. Understand that friends come and go, but with a precious few you should hold on.

Work hard to bridge the gaps in geography and lifestyle, because the older you get, the more you need the people who knew you when you were young.

Live in New York City once, but leave before it makes you hard. Live in Northern California once, but leave before it makes you soft.

Travel.

Accept certain inalienable truths: Prices will rise. Politicians will philander. You, too, will get old. And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.

Respect your elders.

Don't expect anyone else to support you. Maybe you have a trust fund. Maybe you'll have a wealthy spouse. But you never know when either one might run out.

Don't mess too much with your hair or by the time you're 40 it will look 85. Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

But trust me on the sunscreen.

Last edited by disillusioned; 03-06-2011 at 06:42 PM.
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  #53  
Old 03-06-2011, 06:43 PM
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The thing is that even when the previous generation tries to despense it's wisdom of the lived human experience we (as humans) tend to think that it will be different with us. Hence having to start from scratch with every individual. Such is life.
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  #54  
Old 03-06-2011, 06:47 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

Sakah when the walls fell.

Juliet on a balcony.

That is all I have to add to that piece of work.
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  #55  
Old 03-06-2011, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NeonKaos View Post
Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra.

Sakah when the walls fell.

Juliet on a balcony.

That is all I have to add to that piece of work.
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  #56  
Old 03-06-2011, 07:11 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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Let me ruin the "insideness" of it:

" The Tamarian language was the spoken language of the Tamarians. Federation universal translators, although they successfully translate the words, present the syntax as almost nonsensical, because the Tamarians speak entirely by metaphor, referencing mythological and historical people and events from their culture. Thus, instead of asking for cooperation, they would use a phrase such as "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra", because their culture's stories include a tale of two Tamarians, Darmok and Jalad, who fought a common foe together on an island called Tanagra. The problem with communicating in this fashion is that without knowing the meaning of the reference, the metaphor becomes meaningless. While explaining the structure of the language, Deanna Troi made up the example that "Juliet on her balcony" could be used to describe a romantic situation, although it is impossible to understand if the listener does not know who Juliet is, or why she was on the balcony. "

Good joke. A race that speak with metaphors that reference their history... and how do they reproduce? I bet they're non monogamous. ;-)

Last edited by disillusioned; 03-06-2011 at 07:20 PM.
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  #57  
Old 03-06-2011, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by River View Post
But were these also love partners?
Sure, why not? Do you imagine hunter/gatherers were incapable of love?

Quote:

I ask because -- as many here know -- I'm weary of the rampant loss of whole connection (or intimacy) in "sex," which is often now treated as a trivial form of casual recreation where the heart isn't expected to be involved. I see a wide spectrum of kinds of loving being possible, and am not opposed to brief "encounters," but (perhaps especially among "gay" men) it's sometimes difficult to find whole, rounded "encounter". Too many hearts are left out of "sex" altogether.
Well, people are horny and they want to get off. I have heard more gay men are into casual encounters than women are. Personally, I blame the patriarchy, where men are trained from birth to not admit they have any emotion other than anger and horniness. Being loving, romantic or having the ability to cry are seen as a weakness to be buried, and beaten out of oneself if need be.

Maybe you should try bi guys? I have found several sensitive loving souls amongst bi men in my dating experiences. Got one right now. I swear, in some ways he's more woman than I am.
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Last edited by Magdlyn; 03-06-2011 at 07:36 PM.
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  #58  
Old 03-06-2011, 07:31 PM
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Let me ask a different question, why is it so important to you that you are right?

I have a similar need, not for revolution per se, but to change the level of acceptance for alternative relationship styles - and, importantly, lessening the myriad ways that society tries to control sex and reproduction. I find that control dehumanizing in a more literal sense of the term.

But, at its root, my passion is one of allowing choice - or more precisely - informed choice. With that focus, I have no interest in proving them wrong. On the contrary, I'd prefer if I could be allowed to be "wrong" (in their eyes) without retribution.

Life is about the choice. I want to be able to choose and for others to choose openly, knowledgeably. Any societal structure that forces a reduction in informed choice, in my eyes, is almost always suspect.

To wit, replacing a tyranny of monogamy with a tyranny of polyamory is fundamentally no change at all, in terms of its dehumanizing nature. The amount of "badness" or "wrongness" hasn't essentially shifted at all. It would just as readily stifle the human spirit.

That's not the game I want to play. Simply shifting from the oppressed to the oppressor is not changing the game.
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Last edited by MindfulAgony; 03-06-2011 at 07:36 PM. Reason: added the last sentance
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  #59  
Old 03-06-2011, 08:09 PM
disillusioned disillusioned is offline
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I'm not sure where I said that I'm against choice.... Did I advocate a "relationship police" that will break up marriages after a certain time?

"We are sorry dear couple, but you've been together 10 years, that's all we allow, and you are having way too much sex... you are screwing up with our statistics...."

I didn't say that... but what I would like to see is that people will KNOW that monogamy is very much a constructed idea "forced from above" and it is highly unlikely that it is our "true nature".

In a perfect world.... yea, I would "force" people to be exposed to these ideas. But then, what they do with this knowledge - why would I care? People can do whatever they want... did I come off as a fascist dictator ???


Quote:
Originally Posted by MindfulAgony View Post
Let me ask a different question, why is it so important to you that you are right?
It's not "important" to me that I'm right, I'm just passionate about this... and here is why:

Another thought - monogamy / relationships / sex... are just about the most important aspects of the human existence. I'm saying (and you too I think) that most people live "unnatural" lives. How many is "most people"? About 99% of the human race. This forum is one of the few places where people discuss the "alternatives". There are 6 BILLION people in the world. OK half are kids and many people don't speak English, so lets take it down to 2 BILLION, who speak English, who can connect to the internet.

2 BILLION people live "unnaturally", speak English, are connected to the internet, could find this forum if they wanted to... and there are only 3500 active members here.

WOW

Isn't that borderline sickening? To me, it is...

Yes, sickening is a strong word, I know... Its just that I see so many of society's ills as PARTLY being the result of us living "unnaturally" - people's frustrations, unhappiness, sex crimes, violence... for me this is not just "an interesting discovery", because, as I said before, it relates to the FOUNDATION of how our society is organized.

How can something that relates to the foundations of our society can be anything less than "huge" ?

Last edited by disillusioned; 03-06-2011 at 08:23 PM.
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  #60  
Old 03-06-2011, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by River View Post
But were these also love partners?

I ask because -- as many here know -- I'm weary of the rampant loss of whole connection (or intimacy) in "sex," which is often now treated as a trivial form of casual recreation where the heart isn't expected to be involved . . . Too many hearts are left out of "sex" altogether.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Sure, why not? Do you imagine hunter/gatherers were incapable of love?
Maybe love -- as we know it today in Western culture -- wasn't important.

I have some friends who had been traveling to Bali for many years, starting in the late 80s. They always stayed a few months each time in the same area in a more remote jungle region where tourists did not tend to go, far away from the cities (not sure where, I never visited them there). They went pretty much every year (except for a few years when some dangerous situations occurred and Americans were cautioned against going there) . They would go and rent space to hold workshops there, and made friends with the local Balinese people who lived in the surrounding villages. Most of the local men are what we would call polygamous. Families with at least three wives and several children were the norm.

My friends eventually bought property there (even though foreigners are not allowed to own property in Bali, they had a business deal with a local village man in whose name the property is listed). By the time they built their retreat center, television had come to the region. They could now get American and European television shows and movies. This sparked some changes in attitudes.

First, the women started wearing bras, after generations of always walking around topless -- unselfconsciously and unashamed, of course. The other huge change my friends felt was almost shocking, was that the wives started asking if their husbands loved them. They began demanding to hear the words "I love you." They started fighting amongst each other to see who was loved best among the wives. Prior to seeing American soap operas, that was an unknown concept to this village. The women were secure, happy, satisfied, and comfortable in their poly relationships without ever having been told they were loved before. The men were devoted and responsible providers, yet now they were perplexed. What was this new element that now had to be brought to their relationships, which were previously working so well?

After my friends related this to us, I began to realize that love is a concept, too. A social construct. Perhaps the feelings begin with the chemical bath we all get dipped in, but what continues what we call love? It is a combination of mutual respect, caring, affection, admiration -- but what is love itself? It could be just a synonym for deep connection. I would say that perhaps good, healing, mutually beneficial and nurturing relationships don't need to depend so much on our old concepts of what love is. Personally, I feel that love is something at the core of us which gets touched when we let someone in close enough, but I don't know that it's out of the ordinary for this to happen, and perhaps it's not necessary for satisfying relationships. I don't know. How can the Western mind handle a change in the concept of what love is? Interesting...
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Last edited by nycindie; 03-06-2011 at 08:39 PM.
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