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  #41  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:22 PM
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If I may, jump in quickly again.... (Smilies people...)

Sohuman, it seems to me that at this point you are looking for support, as well as direction (in the giving of advice - your choice of course to take it)...

The section called Life stories and blogs may have been more appropriate for you to share your story and open up - that section is a 'protected area'... This section, and the general discussions section tend to be a little more blunt and direct...

Please do continue to read here, if you are not comfortable sharing more of your story, please get involved in the discussions on other threads, being careful not to take personal offense at comments (I found it hard in my initial stages on here not to feel personally attacked... with one memorable thread ending up transferring into the forum sociology thread :P)

and just for the record... NyCindie is a good person - sometimes a little more direct than is easily appreciated... there are a few others on here like that...

myself I find their bluntness (now) to be refreshing and helpful and, in particular, if something they have said set me off... I need to ask why... (yes it may have been rudely said or whatever - but why did it REALLY upset me) - to a large degree I have found that their response has triggered something I was feeling deep down that I need to work on, or clarified something I didn't want to admit (and on occasion has simply come out of left field and left me stunned going "what the...") however, this is just me...

I do hope you will stay and take advantage of what really is an amazing community of people...
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  #42  
Old 02-24-2011, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FlameKat View Post
and just for the record... NyCindie is a good person - sometimes a little more direct than is easily appreciated... there are a few others on here like that...
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Sometimes being a New Yorker is both a curse and a blessing, in terms of being blunt. Some people love it, some people hate it. I really meant no ill will toward either of them, and hope that they both come back and get what they need from this awesome community. I will butt out unless asked. Promise!
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  #43  
Old 02-24-2011, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
And at least one other person thought what I said could be valuable to you.
More than one.

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Originally Posted by sohuman View Post
It SUCKS to be on the receiving end of your unrelenting condescension. I truly regret trying to join this community and would delete everything if I could.
I find that often if we don't know someone, especially if they are from a different life environment than we are (town, country, school, age group etc) it's EASY to interpret what they say incorrectly-because we're filtering it through OUR experience, but they don't have OUR experience.

This happens a lot between my 19 year old and I. She's an amazingly loving person, and not 10 minutes ago we were talking and I said, "sometimes when you talk the tone of voice you use sounds to me like you are being a condescending bitch, but I know that's now your intent." She nodded and said, "thanks, you're right, that's not at all what I meant".

But, for HER group of friends, that tone ISN'T condescending bitch, with mine, it is.

I happen to have been on this board for over a year, and I've read MANY of NYCindie's posts. When I read the ones on your thread, I didn't see her being condescending at all. In fact, I read them as very concerned and caring.

What that tells me is that there is a huge disparity of life experience between you and she (and you and me too). THAT is a GOOD thing.

Seriously-It means that we all stand to be able to learn new things from each other.

BUT ONLY if we assume from the outset that we all have hte best of INTENTIONS and don't get all riled up by each other.

If you did go back and re-read what she said, and instead of looking for how she was attacking you, just look for what in her post might be helpful.... what do you find?

Mr. Right-You rock. I am so glad you joined the board. I've enjoyed every post I've seen thus far this week.
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  #44  
Old 02-25-2011, 04:15 AM
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The question:"Do you honestly believe" is not only a condescending turn of phrase, it's also antagonistic. It means: "Are you really, honestly so stupid that you can't understand the following point that everybody else can see plain as day, or are you just the biggest hypocrite?", usually followed by the simplest to grasp version of said point.

In that spirit of "tough love" informed by wisdom accumulated over years of life experience, here are some questions to everybody who can't see it:
1- Do you honestly believe that berating people over what they' ve already admitted to be bad behavior is productive?
2- Do you honestly believe that tearing people who are just opening up a new one is conducive to them opening up further, and remaining open to constructive criticism?
3- Do you honestly believe that further insulting them over their parenting (which you are making outrageous assumptions about) should be part of a proper apology?

So let's see what's been accomplished so far: Actual damage. This is a shame because good points were made, several others finally well articulated, but in the end, because you have no clue as to how to phrase your opinion in a constructive way, sohuman is really, truly pissed, and has no more interest in using this forum again. And believe me, this forum has a lot to gain from someone like her being involved. She may have thinner than ideal skin, but is an exceptional thinker/writer.

And those of you who came to NYCindie's defense: you realize what you're doing is gang up on this new person who's trying to be honest, do the right thing, and just opened up, right? Being cluelessly blunt can have bad consequences.

Either way, I'm still here. I'm just not sure I'm interested in keeping up with the many unproductive tangents...

I'll have another post soon adressing actual issues.
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  #45  
Old 02-25-2011, 09:01 AM
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Default my two cents - not a lecture, and genuine curiosity and concern...

For myself - I was not coming to Nycindies defense so much as trying to get across that she meant no harm... and was not attacking...

"Do you honestly believe" can be said without a condescending tone? We are new to both of you... how are we to know what you honestly and deeply believe without asking? From the perspective I read it - i felt it was asking for a response that clarified further how one felt/thought - not an implied criticism at all... maybe it was written in a way that lacked a way of showing tone... but it was also read in a way that was not how it was intended AND took the worst possible meaning from it...

it has all been miscommunication.

Anyway, sohuman is obviously hurting very badly and feeling very poorly misunderstood - if I have contributed to that - I apologise for adding to that.

@choncordian...
Quote:
This is a shame because good points were made, several others finally well articulated, but in the end, because you have no clue as to how to phrase your opinion in a constructive way, sohuman is really, truly pissed, and has no more interest in using this forum again.
like any other place in life - you get out what you put in.

this forum is responsible for assisting many many people deal with issues that are very very emotional... as a group - we are not perfect either... as individuals.. we also are not perfect... we are human too and struggling just as much as each of you... why are you attacking us because sohuman has issues that were triggered by something that was said on here?
as you yourself said - you are new here - how are we to know what her trigger points are and what will set her off.... no-one on here sets out to deliberately antagonise or hurt another member - and in any case where it is suspected or confirmed the mods take care of it quite decisively (you will notice in some of threads that some names may have the word "banned" where others have their member level)

Right now...

to me the issue would be to surely find out why she is so very upset? surely the opinion of a complete stranger would not have that much effect? the fact that no-one else has called nycindie out on what she said... to me implies that there was some validity to her concerns - however badly expressed, that there was genuine question in there that others were curious about as well.
That sohuman flipped out? to me would imply a sensitivity to that issue... perhaps she feels that that particular issue (or something related) is a concern.... for whatever reason... (maybe it is as simple as perceptions... similar to the coming out thing for gay/bi/trans people... maybe she has concerns deep down about how she will be perceived (or even how she perceives herself - particularly as you have been pretty blunt on how you disbelieve that polyamory is truly her thing)... that she herself is unaware of at this point??)
Or maybe it is as simple as she didn't get the support that she was looking for to keep charging ahead... that she was bluntly told that she wasn't yet in a place where she was ready for poly either...

I know i found that hard to hear myself... in fact i saw red and lashed out. I had just come to a place (here - this forum) and everything i read 'fitted' like a glove - i was all "oh this is me - this is who i am"... then my fiance is all "I don't think you can do it... you didnt know how you felt about T, you were ignoring me, you were sleeping during my time so you could be awake during his time" (not true though there were occasions)... I did not take that well at all. "it's different now - i know how i feel, we know what to look for..." but the simple fact is I was not ready, and I am still learning... I wait and wait and wait for WW to be ready... but I have so much work to do on myself before I can even start (and we don't have the cheating issue to deal with) thinking about moving forward... it would be really nice to take a step or two diagonally forward tho

hopefully sohuman will come back to us when she is ready. and i do hope i didn't come off as offensive in this post - simply giving my perspective.
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  #46  
Old 02-25-2011, 08:20 PM
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woah, this train wreck just keeps on going doesn't it! (yes that is meant to be funny folks.....). It's ashame you didn't keep that post S (mods can still see posts after deletion), it was a good one and very informative... I certainly was able to understand a bit more what is going on for you....

NYCindie... the fact that you are from NY is not the thing here.... I thought sarcasm reined here due to C's posts and that a kind of "atmosphere" was created early on... I understand that you were following suit. It seems that what you said was blown out of proportion (that from someone that has known you for a long time!).... no biggy, what you said (sarcasm and directness aside) was valid....

Ah well, that's it from me... good luck to both of you. Hope you get some of this worked out.
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  #47  
Old 02-25-2011, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
NYCindie... the fact that you are from NY is not the thing here.... I thought sarcasm reined here due to C's posts and that a kind of "atmosphere" was created early on... I understand that you were following suit. It seems that what you said was blown out of proportion (that from someone that has known you for a long time!).... no biggy, what you said (sarcasm and directness aside) was valid....
RP, I wasn't going to post here again, but since you did address me, I will say I wasn't being sarcastic at all. Everything I said I would say to someone near and dear to me, in a gentle loving tone, so it is a shame that I have been misunderstood as condescending. It seems every word I wrote was blown out of proportion. In my head, when I say, "Do you honestly believe...," it only means just that, an inquiry - "Is this something you truly believe or invest in?" The questions were not meant to direct judgment but to provoke some self-inquiry. "Here's a few things to consider." That's all. It is also a shame, and rather unproductive, for so much focus to have been placed on a few of my words rather than the content, which was echoed by many here. But I also understand the need to avoid looking deeper when fighting and resisting being challenged is a prime directive, so all I can do is wish everyone well. I must say I admire Sohuman's intelligence, which is obvious in her writing.

I really don't think it's necessary to keep rehashing what I said, maybe someone else can do some reframing or add other perspectives (if they really want to hear it) and continue the discussion so the OP and her hubs can get some healing and insight from being here. But please, everyone, leave me out of it.
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Last edited by nycindie; 02-25-2011 at 08:42 PM.
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  #48  
Old 02-25-2011, 08:44 PM
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The question:"Do you honestly believe" is not only a condescending turn of phrase, it's also antagonistic. It means: "Are you really, honestly so stupid that you can't understand the following point that everybody else can see plain as day, or are you just the biggest hypocrite?", usually followed by the simplest to grasp version of said point.
It absolutely can mean that, you are write, depending upon tone of voice. Unfortunately on a message board, we don't have tone of voice to guage.
In my life, it's often used (by many people) to ask a sincere question when trying to get advice. Such as "do you honestly believe that I should do that? I would expect it to have a negative result, not a positive one..." Which isn't condescending or antagonistic.
It's really a matter of perspective.

Quote:
1- Do you honestly believe that berating people over what they' ve already admitted to be bad behavior is productive?
No, certainly not. But, as someone whose committed some heiniously bad relationship behavior, I do find it productive to honestly address which behaviors are likely to result in which unproductive consequences in order to help each other avoid those consequences.

Quote:
2- Do you honestly believe that tearing people who are just opening up a new one is conducive to them opening up further, and remaining open to constructive criticism?
No. Unfortunately, sometimes, when a person is already hurting and defensive, even the kindest intention can be taken wrong. Much like an injured animal-when you reach out to help them, they bite. Because through their pain and defensiveness they are unable to see the INTENTION. There are people on the board who speak languages besides English as their primary language, and there are many who live in different countries than the US with completely different "norm's" for terminology, different understandings of appropriate, hell we've encountered confusion because the definition of 'friend with benefits' and the definition of 'fuck buddy' are different for different places!
In order to productively communicate and seek help on a message board (especially one with such a HUGE variety of nationalities and lifestyles as this) each person has to be willing to first ask "did you MEAN xyz, because that was what I thought you meant?" before getting offended. Because there is a HIGH probability that what was intended to be conveyed, was not what was ACTUALLY conveyed.
Hell-that happens between my husband and I when we write on here and we freaking KNOW each other and live in the same house, speak the same language etc. But, writing just limits the ability to convey precise thought. So much of communication is visual-and that is lost on a message board.
Add to that the limitations of not knowing for sure the terms that describe the picture you are trying to convey, and not having the same understanding of the meaning of any given term OR phrase...
Whew-it's a wonder any of us ever make sense of each other!

Quote:
3- Do you honestly believe that further insulting them over their parenting (which you are making outrageous assumptions about) should be part of a proper apology?
Nope. But, I do think that showing an interest and concern and then pointing it out to the other person is helpful. Should it all have been in separate posts, probably so. But, we all are at fault of trying to simplify things and waste less time. Sometimes-that's not really the best route to take.

Quote:
sohuman is really, truly pissed, and has no more interest in using this forum again.
That's unfortunate. Because the truth is, that she (like each of us as individuals) has every right to ask for opinions, read (or not read) the responses and then decide for herself what she'd like to do with those opinions if anything. There's no need to allow the opinions or communication skills of a complete stranger upset one so much.
I often read things on here that I think are a crock of shit. I just skim right over and keep on going, looking for the little gems that make my life a little brighter.
Maybe, if she would take a deep breath, and consider why she really personally cares about a total strangers opinion, she'll find, that she doesn't and she could still move on and enjoy participating on the board?

Quote:
And those of you who came to NYCindie's defense: you realize what you're doing is gang up on this new person who's trying to be honest, do the right thing, and just opened up, right? Being cluelessly blunt can have bad consequences.
Are you saying that we're all being cluelessly blunt or that we're wrong for accepting that some people are cluelessly blunt? I'm not sure.
Also, defending someone is not necesarrily attacking another. I can stand in front of and defend my child-without ever lashing out. Example-original Karate Kid movie taught this concept.

I do look forward to getting to know you both in future posts. I have to run, I have a meeting. I'll read more when I return.

LR
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  #49  
Old 02-25-2011, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
RP, I wasn't going to post here again, but since you did address me, I will say I wasn't being sarcastic at all. Everything I said I would say to someone near and dear to me, in a gentle loving tone, so it is a shame that I have been misunderstood as condescending. It seems every word I wrote was blown out of proportion. In my head, when I say, "Do you honestly believe...," it only means just that, an inquiry - "Is this something you truly believe or invest in?" The questions were not meant to direct judgment but to provoke some self-inquiry. "Here's a few things to consider." That's all. It is also a shame, and rather unproductive, for so much focus to have been placed on a few of my words rather than the content, which was echoed by many here. But I also understand the need to avoid looking deeper when fighting and resisting being challenged is a prime directive, so all I can do is wish everyone well. I must say I admire Sohuman's intelligence, which is obvious in her writing.

I really don't think it's necessary to keep rehashing what I said, maybe someone else can do some reframing or add other perspectives (if they really want to hear it) and continue the discussion so the OP and her hubs can get some healing and insight from being here. But please, everyone, leave me out of it.
Ah, okay. Not sarcastic, just a way of saying something. Got it thanks for clarifying
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Last edited by redpepper; 02-26-2011 at 02:57 AM.
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  #50  
Old 02-25-2011, 08:52 PM
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Oh, I just want to add that I regret not expressing myself in a way that delivered my intention of being supportive and helpful. And I am very sorry for causing any hurt.
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