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  #31  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:04 PM
sohuman sohuman is offline
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Last edited by sohuman; 02-23-2011 at 10:06 PM.
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  #32  
Old 02-23-2011, 06:07 PM
Catfish Catfish is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Interesting how you left yourself out of the comment I made. No, no, no, you funny girl. I meant that neither of you should be pursuing anyone else until you fix the broken relationship you have -- unless, of course, you're just addicted to drama and would get a thrill out of bringing a world of hurt down on you both. Your title is accurate -- it would be a train wreck.

Here's a few questions to ask yourself:
Do you honestly think that the smart thing to do is run around and find couples and people to fuck and suck (and possibly fall in love with) while your marriage is broken, with your husband hurt and angry at your betrayal?

Do you think that confessing should just be enough? You've got a lot of work to do to fix the damage left over from lies and cheating.

Do you honestly think your husband's just got to get over it while you go and do whatever you want?

Why do you care more about some swinger who's lusting after you while your husband needs you? While you need to focus on looking inward? You make it all seem kind of amusing, but you're living in a fantasy world.
Marriage is work, relationship are work, and if you don't have a strong, stable foundation in a mutually respectful and loving marriage where you make taking care of each other your first priority, how do you think it's even possible for either of you to start moving outside of the marriage to have multiple relationships?

Where is the respect, not only for your husband and child, but for yourself?

Sure, you might think you can just admit what you did, talk a lot about it, "oh yes, I've done all that personal growth stuff already, la-dee-da," announce that you're now poly and come up with some hypothetical "boundaries" because you've read that that's what poly people do, and then go have lots of extramarital sex -- but what is that all about, really? You've said you want poly, and not swinging. From what you've posted here, you don't really seem ready all that poly demands for it to work to everyone's benefit, at least it doesn't seem that way to me. And I'm someone who is fine with casual sex, but I don't see how it will benefit you or your marriage right now.

All of the above said with "tough love," compassion, and the kind of cranky wagging of my finger at you that a 50-year old woman can get away with. People lie and cheat all the time. It doesn't make you a bad person, but it means you've got a lot of self-examining and repairing to do.

You want self-esteem, do esteemable things.
I just thought this should be in this thread twice.
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  #33  
Old 02-24-2011, 12:43 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I don't think anyone should be pursuing anyone right now personally.
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
Interesting how you left yourself out of the comment I made. No, no, no, you funny girl. I meant that neither of you should be pursuing anyone else until you fix the broken relationship you have -- unless, of course, you're just addicted to drama and would get a thrill out of bringing a world of hurt down on you both. Your title is accurate -- it would be a train wreck.
These two thoughts are critical.

I'm poly.
I cheated.
I'm still married to my husband.
I'm still dating the man who I cheated with.

BUT-I've had to run myself through hell and back looking into myself and finding the parts of me that are fucked up-and then forcing myself to fix them.
I've had to run through hell to prove that I'm worthy of being trusted, I had to EARN that trust, trust I still don't have in full.

I haven't lied (about anything) to Maca since September 2009. I've been upfront and honest even when it took me to tears from the terror. I've accepted his anger, his distrust, his lack of faith for my failure to be honest before-every time he's dished it out. Even though it hurts like hell.

If you want to recreate your life-you need to focus on what it is that you need to correct about and in yourself. Not focus on anyone else-including your husband. This is about you.

to husband-if you want to recreate your life-you need to focus on what it is that you need to correct about and in yourself. Not focus on anyone else-including your wife. This is about you.

It's impossible to get it all back on track if you are busy listing the ways the other person is wrong. The only way to fix a trainwreck, is to get yourself OUT OF THE WRECKAGE. That means focusing on how YOU got yourself into it-not focusing on how the train got into you.
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  #34  
Old 02-24-2011, 02:49 AM
sohuman sohuman is offline
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  #35  
Old 02-24-2011, 05:42 AM
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Sohuman, my list of questions were not based on Conchordian's posts, but on your original post where you wrote that you cheated and then described some drama that was going down with some swingers. I was responding to YOU, and everything you wrote in your posts, not to Conchordian. I re-read YOUR posts several times, and wrote back to YOU. If I were responding to him, I would have addressed it to him. I said in my post that what you did does NOT mean you're a bad person (didja skip over that part, too?), and I wasn't trying to put you down or "in your place." I have no interest in that. Believe it or not I was trying to be helpful. And at least one other person thought what I said could be valuable to you.

As for how my questions were worded, I think this is a situation where the words written on a message board sounds different and comes across a certain way, when the person who wrote it (me) didn't mean it to sound the way you took it. Picture those questions read to you as if a grandmother was reading a bedtime story to a toddler. That was the tone I wrote them in. In my head I was saying, "Do you honestly believe..." very gently as if I was speaking to my sister who was crying. Honestly. Sorry I wasn't as clear as I could have been, though I did say I was offering my opinion in a "tough love" sort of way. I don't take back any of it, though, and they weren't rhetorical questions AT ALL. I was genuinely asking those questions FOR REAL.

It does no good to get defensive, when you come to a forum and ask how to handle things you've mangled. People are gonna tell you straight. You make a mess, you gotta clean it up. I'm not on a high horse, I'm someone who has mangled some shit in my life miserably, and I know about esteem issues and fucking around. I am not judging, just telling you what I see, from what you wrote. I never said anything about your wanting to be found attractive, that I understand. There are lots of other things you wrote about which indicate self-esteem is an issue. And I never told you you should split up, but I did say that considering being apart could be part of your work on your marriage: "You two probably need to work on your marriage, get into therapy, and maybe even consider not being together, before you try to wave the flag of being polyamorous as a reason for having multiple lovers." Read what was written. I never suggested breaking up permanently - how could I tell someone they should do that?! That's ridiculoous. Considering something is different from doing it. You interpreted almost everything I wrote incorrectly.

Now we have a bigger picture about you and your hubs, and it's very obvious the two of you both have lots of work to do (though it was already obvious before), but everyone's been saying all along neither of you are in a place to "go poly." Especially if you're both so hurtful, mean, disrespectful, and vindictive to each other. What are you teaching your child by relating to each other the ways that you do? I wonder why you don't think therapy is needed. It would be a lot more productive in a professional's office than duking it out here where no one really knows you and we only get slivers of info at a time.
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Last edited by nycindie; 02-24-2011 at 06:10 AM.
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  #36  
Old 02-24-2011, 05:52 AM
sohuman sohuman is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
it's very obvious the two of you both have lots of work to do (though it was already obvious before), but everyone's been saying all along neither of you are in a place to "go poly." Especially if you're both so hurtful, mean, disrespectful, and vindictive to each other. What are you teaching your child by relating to each other the ways that you do? I wonder why you don't think therapy is needed. It would be a lot more productive in a professional's office than duking it out here where no one really knows you and we only get slivers of info at a time.
So you really cannot stop doing that, can you? I wrote exactly what we are teaching our child. Just keep talking about her, and what we're ready for or not ready for, and how awful we are, and our broken marriage, since you know so much. Seriously, whatever floats your boat. Can I give you our home address so you can call CPS?

It SUCKS to be on the receiving end of your unrelenting condescension. I truly regret trying to join this community and would delete everything if I could.

Last edited by sohuman; 02-24-2011 at 05:20 PM. Reason: bolding added by me
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  #37  
Old 02-24-2011, 06:12 AM
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So you really cannot stop doing that, can you? I wrote exactly what we are teaching our child. Just keep talking about her, and what we're ready for or not ready for, and how awful we are, and our broken marriage, since you know so much. Seriously, whatever floats your boat. Can I give you our home address so you can call CPS?
You are not awful. You are in pain. You are reading stuff into what I wrote that isn't there. No attacks coming from me, nor condescension, really -- just direct communication. If only you knew the struggles I have gone through with my self-esteem, you would know I am not being condescending toward you. But I'll stop posting since you're taking everything I write in the wrong way. Sorry about that! I wish you all the best in your journeys and hope everything all works out for you both to be happy, healed, and satisfied, whatever you decide to do.
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Click here for a Solo Poly view on hierarchical relationships
Click here to find out why the Polyamorous Misanthrope is feeling disgusted.

Last edited by nycindie; 02-24-2011 at 06:47 AM.
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  #38  
Old 02-24-2011, 06:42 AM
sohuman sohuman is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
You are not awful. You are in pain. You are reading stuff into what I wrote that isn't there.
Take care, y'all.
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  #39  
Old 02-24-2011, 12:05 PM
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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Originally Posted by conchordian View Post
I didn't mean to derail the thread. I can see what you meant about debate. People are ready to jump on just about anything that smells even remotely like one. (Y'all should be ashamed! Yeah, you know who you are...)

Either way... I deleted anything that was inflamatory, trying to clean up the thread. Probably too late, but there you have it, I'm trying my best.

My initial introduction was just meant to warn people that I might lash out. My problem with polyamory is not a problem with polyamory per se, but a problem with my wife using it as an excuse for her lack of control over the past few years (6 to be exact, but who's counting, it's not a contest). I really think she's mistaken if she thinks you "are" poly the same way you "are" gay (In fact I resent the idea that there's anything magical about this "ability" she has to "love" more than one person (more on that later)). I think she's a hypocrit for trying to use this bullshit to justify her lack of control and willingness to give up on the commitment we made simply because she wanted to go fuck other people (and did).

It is not a "special, magical ability to love more than one person" that made her cheat and lie, all the while refusing me the same freedom (of having extra marital encounters/relationships). It is her immature need for external validation, and seemingly uncontrollable craving for NRE. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's what makes someone "polyamorous".

So yes, there's anger, resentment, extreme intolerance for bullshit, accompanied by hope that she can REALLY be honest instead of insulting me by pussyfooting around the truth. I've never been very tolerant of BS to start with, but the woman has a much higher than average IQ, she knows better. It is insulting to me that she thinks she's going to pull one over on me by using half baked cop-out arguments to justify her past shortcomings, or to try to get what she wants in the future.

I think we're ready, and about to make progress, but I can see how that conversation is going to be really laborious, and tinged with more empty arguments. I'm ready for it though.
I'm using a quote from conchordian to jump into this thread, but I have points to make to each. I would like you both to know that I'm not a know-it-all arsehole: I'm a trying-to-figure-it-all-out arsehole. I want to throw into the ring some considerations that many of us are struggling with.

@ conchordian 1st, thanks for joining in! I think it's brave of you - someone who's going through so much pain and the (imagined or not) victim of deception and hypocrisy - not to shut your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears while chanting "I can't hear you!"

2nd, as a big fan of sarcasm who often finds that sarcasm misunderstood - especially on-line, where I can't use body language - I heartily back up someone's earlier advice to use the sarcasm smiley at the right of the page when you're typing a post. It's a shame when a friendly (even timid) attempt to make a joke and break the ice with strangers is understood as a personal attack and things escalate. And they have on this thread.

3rd, Love Hurts - or rather we often hurt ourselves when trying to deal with the complexities of love.

4th - and this is presumptuous of me, since you know her much better and I've just read this thread - but I dont get the impression that sohuman's "a hypocrit for trying to use this bullshit to justify her lack of control and willingness to give up on the commitment we made". It seems to me that she's willing to admit that she cheated / was a hypocrite in the past, but has come out to you precisely because she wanted to stop cheating. You talk about the last 6 years +/-. People grow. Give her credit for wanting to be honest with you now... and wanting to have an honest relationship. Keep the "hope that she can REALLY be honest instead of insulting me by pussyfooting around the truth", and give her the benefit of the doubt: that she's trying!

5th, you love her the way she is. Admit that. You might not agree with or love ALL her aspects, but the whole crazy pile is someone that you love. I once wrote a poem (dedicated to my then-girlfriend - who fell in love with me, but then immediately wanted to change me) with the opening lines (and this is the genesis of my user name): "If you're looking for Mr. Perfect / What the hell are you doing with me???"

6th, it's been at least 20 - maybe 30 - years since I read this book, so I'm bound to misquote it, but it left a deep impression on me, and the gist is:
A husband thanks a psychiatrist for curing his wife of her depressions. [I think that the present-day diagnosis would be bipolar: very high highs, very low lows.] The psychiatrist - also a long-term family friend - responds:
"Your wife was like a pool of water connected by an underground tunnel to the ocean. The mighty ocean's ebbs and tides affected her. What I have done is to block that tunnel, so now she is a shallow pool, calm but shallow.
"Some success story! Some cure!"
from "God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater" by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Would you like to "cure" your wife of her polyamory?

@ sohuman: PLEASE don't lash out at people who are trying to help! I suppose that I've been polyamorous for decades... but I only heard the term for the 1st time a few weeks ago. I have been treated like a strange fish by many people, and I find this site so refreshing.

The term "polytamory" is fairly young, and - though there are certain groundrules (which I think that you would have no problem subscribing to... such as "cheating is NOT polyamory") - it hasn't been homogenised. (And I hope that it never will be! "For variety's the very spice of polyamory" [or something like that].) "Senior members" and moderators might have more experience, but they're not dictators - and I haven't (yet) come across one on here who wanted to be.

We're on here for debate, for mutual support (in a society that's largely hostile to the concept), for interchange of opinions and life-stories.

Please don't give up on us just because someone gives you advice you don't agree with and have no intention of following. If we preceded all our comments with "now this is just my personal opinion, and I hope that you won't take it the wrong way..." each post would be much longer.

@ both of you, as my grandfather used to say: "Well, get you a chair!" (Welcome!)
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  #40  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:04 PM
sohuman sohuman is offline
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Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
@ sohuman: PLEASE don't lash out at people who are trying to help! I suppose that I've been polyamorous for decades... but I only heard the term for the 1st time a few weeks ago. I have been treated like a strange fish by many people, and I find this site so refreshing.

The term "polytamory" is fairly young, and - though there are certain groundrules (which I think that you would have no problem subscribing to... such as "cheating is NOT polyamory") - it hasn't been homogenised. (And I hope that it never will be! "For variety's the very spice of polyamory" [or something like that].) "Senior members" and moderators might have more experience, but they're not dictators - and I haven't (yet) come across one on here who wanted to be.

We're on here for debate, for mutual support (in a society that's largely hostile to the concept), for interchange of opinions and life-stories.

Please don't give up on us just because someone gives you advice you don't agree with and have no intention of following. If we preceded all our comments with "now this is just my personal opinion, and I hope that you won't take it the wrong way..." each post would be much longer.

@ both of you, as my grandfather used to say: "Well, get you a chair!" (Welcome!)
Thank you for your message. I like the quotes too. This goes to show that it is entirely possible to welcome someone without judging and lecturing them. I'm sorry, but right after I had just found the courage to open up, she told me she knew better than me, and then called us hurtful, mean, disrespectful, and vindictive, and bad role models for our child. Not fucking cool. Don't care if you're "just trying to help", it would have been far more helpful to SHARE whatever of her stories of self-esteem she thought were relevant than to lecture me. And I didn't appreciate Catfish copying and pasting that lecture as if I couldn't read or something.

I shared a bunch more and was met with even more judgment and condescension by NYCIndie.

I then deleted what more I had shared and had every intention of leaving the forum (I can choose to be part of the community here or not based on who's in it and how they treat me), but maybe I should just put her on ignore since you have most been top drawer.

It's not that I don't appreciate advice or don't have any intention of following it, it's how it's phrased. If I stay here, I plan to share my stories with people rather than tell them what I think of them.

I can tell you upfront that I am intelligent, not because I think I know better than other people, but because of my capacity to think things through and to understand them based on logic, for example, I have been reading about poly for only a short time but here is a reflection:

I would actually not endorse the statement that cheating is not polyamory. I contend that polyamory is the rejection of the belief that sexual and/or romantic exclusivity is either necessary or sufficient for all healthy romantic relationships. I contend also that this view (in this case the rejection of a belief) dictates neither a specific relationship structure nor specific behaviors. I'd contend that the wikipedia page needs to be changed even.

Like it or not, there are going to be people who hold the same view but act either ethically or unethically, and there are going to be people who act ethically or unethically, or both, in all relationship structures. This is because the view (rejection of that specific belief) does not dictate whether people are in monogamous or non-monogamous relationships, whether or how they hurt each other, whether or how they handle any hurt that they cause each other, or whether and how they go forward together. A logical parallel to "cheating is not poly" would be "atheists don't kill people". And atheism is a good parallel because it too is not a belief, but rather a view based on rejection of a belief. Being a Humanist and atheist in my views, of course it bugs me that Stalin was also an atheist, but I have to accept the fact that he, like me, rejected the idea that God exists and that for whatever reason related to that or his other views, acted unethically (hmm, maybe he wasn't a Humanist). To witness what happened and then make conclusions based on erroneous logic, like:

- "Atheism is immoral as evidenced by these atrocities", or similarly wrong:
- "People who kill must not be true atheists, because I am a true atheist and I don't kill"

...well, judgments about others' morality that are based on faulty logic, just like judgments based on partial information, are problematic. Because of the prevalence of faulty logic and/or incomplete information, expressing opinions of each other's morality is in itself often problematic (just my belief). If I stayed, I would not pass judgment on or lecture any of you, because I assume I have only partial information and I know how hard it is to share personal stuff like this.

The way-too-long-story-short of what I deleted is that I am not using poly to justify cheating, and Conchordian's belief that I was doing that was based on an innocent communication faux pas that will be corrected in the future (us idiotically trying to have long important conversations after I've taken my sleeping pill for the night!).

I'll need some time away in either case because this is time-consuming and not necessarily good for me meeting my life goals right now.

Last edited by sohuman; 02-24-2011 at 08:53 PM.
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