Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 04-29-2014, 03:10 PM
WhatToDo WhatToDo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 72
Default

I don't think anyone is calling you selfish or a hypocrite, i think you'd find many people in yor situation would have the same thoughts. What you're working through is not rare. You just have to realize that it's not up to you, it's something your guys have to be willing to do and do in a way that your all agreeable to. You just have a lot of talking to do.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-29-2014, 03:20 PM
heartdoodler heartdoodler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatToDo View Post
I don't think anyone is calling you selfish or a hypocrite, i think you'd find many people in yor situation would have the same thoughts. What you're working through is not rare. You just have to realize that it's not up to you, it's something your guys have to be willing to do and do in a way that your all agreeable to. You just have a lot of talking to do.
Yes, some are calling me selfish... read the threads . I understand why. I'm not sure I could continue dating Jason if he were dating someone else. I definitely know there is no way I would accept dating Michael if he is with someone else. Yes, that IS selfish. But, like I told Jason... it would be different if he were in love. I am not looking to just date a bunch of guys, but have actually fallen in love with two. He would have to seek out another person to fall in love with. If that is what he wants, then I would prefer to give him room to find the person who is right for him. I am asking a lot and understand it might be too much. I've already told him he has every right to leave if he likes. He knew I was still in love with Michael when we got together, but like I was, he was also expecting me to fall out of love with him. I had already left him once for Michael, I promised him and myself that I would never do that again... so, instead of leaving him, I went this other route...

Michael definitely will not talk about this. I explained the situation, and he listens. At first, he was upset at me for moving on and seeing someone else... then, he wanted me in his life still, so just accepted the situation as fact. He said specifically, that he does not care about Jason or want to hear anything about Jason. I leave it alone.

What do you do when one party doesn't want to talk? Will not communicate about the poly situation? Does that mean it is destined for failure, or, can you live two lives in total isolation of each other?

Jason and I have talked about it, and have agreed that I would prefer not to share the intimate details of what happens with Michael. That he knows I am a very honest, open person, if he asks, then I will tell him. But, we have agreed that he will only ask the questions that he really wants to know the answers to. He is much more open and communicative than Michael... and hence, one of the reasons I fell for him.

They are so opposite. Is that normal in this situation (if there is any such thing)? Do you get two partners who are opposite, to try and piece together a whole?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-29-2014, 04:29 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,835
Default

This is going to be long, ok?

I see that you are venting and struggling.

You know what? Could stop with the evaluation words -- selfish, hypocrite, etc. To me? That adds to your burden and isn't esp helpful or self respecting to be beating up on yourself.

You are all on a learning curve. You will find out what is realistic/unrealistic and reasonable/unreasonable over time as you go along. You don't have to have it ALL figured out to the final detail. That said? You DO have to have SOME talking together to sort yourselves out to be at the "good enough to go" place. Going in totally blind is not helpful or stacking up the odds to peaceful, harmonious polyshipping!

If you want to hit Miami, you at least aim for Florida. You can fine tune once there. If you want to hit Miami and head out blindly -- you can't be surprised to end up in California or in the ocean. Because it is not like you were even trying to be aiming for the right area!

C'mon. It's ok. New to you, new to them maybe. But there's nothing new under the sun. You can handle this.

Could focus on the here and now. Right now? In the most handy terms?
  • You have been dating two men -- Jason and Michael.
  • It is currently up for consideration to form a polyship "V" with you as the hinge.
  • Neither is dating anyone else, these are the only people in the potential polymath at this time.
  • The only voices that matter at this time is you three people.

You have a lot of talking to do to assess each person's

1) willingness to go there

2) ability to go there.
  • What intrapersonal and interpersonal skills people have or lack affects their ability to execute. Do they plan to learn/grow missing skills first before taking the journey or along the way? Pros/cons to each approach?
  • What beliefs they have/don't have also affects their ability to execute. How willing are they to review/update beliefs that no longer fit them?

Right now there's a lot of fear/axienty "aaaaahhh!" vibe I'm picking up on your post. Could chill and let that pass first. Then get back to sorting yourselves out when calmer.

Could define and clarify for yourselves. I am going to guess. I could guess wrong. But organizing some of your thoughts might help you see from another angle so here's my stab at it:

WHO is in this polyship?
  • Just 3 forever? Or just 3 to start and stabilize into the "new normal" and consider dating new people later?
  • Who wants to date more people or wants the option later?
  • What's polysaturation point?
  • You are prepared to have dating for Jason, but not Michael. (How does Jason feel about that? Michael? BEFORE they agree to enter this proposed V?)
  • Any threats to the system with WHO participates? Other major changes happening in your lives?

I identify these:
  • You are not a confident hinge at this time. You are still digesting the fact that you thought you were mono, and find you have the capacity to love more than 1
  • Jason is not a confident V-arm person at this time.
  • He says he can do it one minute, because he loves you so dearly and wants to be with you.
  • Then, the next minute he says if you love him, you wouldn't ask and would just be with him.
  • Jason may have to reconsider core beliefs if he's struggling this way already. Also work on some "minder reader" expectations -- you can't know things til you actually ask!
  • Michael is not a confident V-arm person at this time.
  • He just doesn't want to hear about Jason. Wants to pretend he does not exist.
  • Michael hates the thought of knowing where I am (with Jason) when I am not with him. (Michael is also struggling with jealousy and expressing it differently. You might also want to read this jealousy article. While at it, may as well review poly hell. He may view Jason as competion, an intrusion or something else -- demoted, displaced, ec. )

WHAT sort of open model relationship will 3 of you practice?
  • Closed "V" with you as hinged is being proposed by you at this time.
    • They don't have to meet.
    • They don't have to know each other. (and be pals is what I guess you mean?)
    • But, you do want to be honest with them. You do not want to sneak around, or consider yourself cheating on the other.
  • Jason suggests just (you and him) as a relationship model.
  • Michael suggests ___? (nothing in your post I spotted)
  • Any threats to the system with WHAT model is practiced?

WHEN/WHERE will this polyship be practiced?
  • In private?
  • Out only to close friends?
  • Out only to family?
  • Out in the open public?
  • Where you are now but not in hometowns? NOT at work, but outside of work? Something else?
  • Any threats to the system with WHO knows you guys are in a V or WHEN/WHERE you practice polyshipping?

I identify these grey areas:
  • Your family does not like Michael.
  • Your family loves Jason.
  • Your family __?__ at (Jason + [you) + Michael]
  • At least one of your friends is supportive.
  • Jason family is ?
  • Some of Jason's friends are not supportive.
  • Michael's family is ?
    Michael's friends are ?


HOW will you practice it?
  • What are your agreements about safer sex?
  • Holidays?
  • Information management (what is TMI?)
  • Time management (Michael is ok with Jason getting more time than him each week)
  • emotional management (You all sound like you struggle with this one)
  • conflict resolution method will be X, should conflicts arise?

HOW long will you practice it before final assessment if this is experiment is "successful" or not?
  • A year with option to "renew?"
  • With monthly check ins along the way to put out small fires?
  • Something else?
  • What if someone needs to abort mission -- what's the plan for that? Breaking up all the way to singles again? Or something else?

WHY are you coming together? Is this a reason you all can get behind with about equal enthusiasm? Threats to the system over the "why?"
  • Michael doesn't match your love languages. You started seeing Jason to get over Michael. (It sounds like the original intent was to break up with him? This is the reason to polyship? To avoid breaking up with Michael? )
  • Jason loves you, and doesn't get why you don't "love him enough" to not ask him to be dealing with Michael in your life.
  • Michael doesn't like you dating Jason.

Again I've just been guessing. I am not you and I could guess totally wrong in trying to group snippets from your posts into "who, what, when, where, how & why" so the loose thoughts get some kind of order to them. But this is something you could for for yourself to help you think this out and do the SWOT to determine if this is even a runner of not with this group of people.

For yourself. In your own time. I encourage you to do it and consider thoughtfully and not rush. Where's the fire?

Not everyone you date will be a runner. Not every time you feel love for someone do you need to grow it bigger or pursue it. It isn't like you have to grab the one that came by and make do because there might not be more coming.

I mean all that kindly.

But if "Jason and Michael" are on the table for you right now, you could do your self care first to calm the fear/anxiety. Then you could take your friend's advice:

Quote:
he suggested I get informed and stop saying I'm not Poly. That regardless of what I am, I am trying to have an honest relationship with two different men.
Get better informed. Keep trying to have honest relationshipping here. And sort it all out. You CAN handle this.

Start from within and work out. Get really honest with yourself. If the main thing with dating Jason was to get OVER Michael -- and that still holds true? Break up with him then. Rather than trying to avoid breaking up with Michael with convoluted polyshipping.

If your honest desire has changed over time to try to be with them in a V -- get on with with THAT process then. Start having the serious talks and educate yourselves so you are NOT doing this so blind and you have a better shot at hitting Miami!

Hang in there.

GL!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 04-29-2014 at 05:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-29-2014, 05:02 PM
heartdoodler heartdoodler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10
Default

GL... you did read my mind. you got it all right...

struggling, and will take this one minute at a time.

thanks for all the advice!

Since I learned about it, I always thought poly was a way you were born... not something you fall into. I do love Jason and Michael. They will both have me, so I will try to make this work.

None of my family knows. They would not accept it. None of Jason's or Michael's family knows, they would not accept it. Jason asked me to tell the friends whom he's already told that I am leaving Michael. He doesn't want anyone to know. Only two of my closest friends know. We are not planning to tell anyone else. As far as everyone is concerned, Jason's side and to my family and friends... I am only with Jason. For Michael's side... I am only with Michael.

I did want to get over Michael by being with Jason. I love him dearly, but he was looking for a part-time relationship as he has too many other things he is juggling in life right now (non relationship related, ex-wife drama, job drama, kids drama)... that I was just wanting too much of him. We broke up constantly, but could never stay apart for any length of time. The last time, I thought I was strong enough to stay gone for good... and fell for Jason (he and I had dated before, but I left him for Michael... Jason was crushed). A month passed, and Michael reached out to me... wanted to see me. I wanted to see him. It started again... my love sprouted, and I could not resist him. But, I had already fallen for another.

This is my new life ... one day at a time.

Thank you sincerely.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-29-2014, 05:12 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,835
Default

Glad it was helpful. Do take it one thing at a time. Do not RUSH.

To me polyamory is the desire or capacity to love more than one at a time. Having the desire or capacity doesn't automatically mean one "doing" poly.

You have discovered a new capacity in yourself. You are not yet in a polyship. You are in a process of sorting things out.

Quote:
What do you do when one party doesn't want to talk? Will not communicate about the poly situation?
This is what I meant about sorting out the "information management" and what might be TMI for each person. Everyone draws a different line for themselves.

The only NEED to knows are health oriented -- sex health hygiene things for instance. Medications you need to be taking your partners prob want to know so you don't end up on their floor on a date in a diabetic coma from lack of your meds for instance. ICE info -- in case of emergency, please contact my _____.

"Want to knows" are bonus, not required.

"Want to tells" are also bonus in another way. If you want to tell, but Michael doesn't want to know and Jason has not asked to be told/know -- how will you handle it? Something to consider.

Quote:
Does that mean it is destined for failure, or, can you live two lives in total isolation of each other?
Could you be willing to define "failure?" I am not clear.

Can YOU maintain separate relationship boundaries with these two partners and feel ok in yourself? Only you can answer that. Because you are the one who has to remember Michael prefers X while Jason prefers Y. You are the one considering entering a polyship where it would be (you + Jason) with his family and (You + Michael) with his family.

Quote:
They are so opposite. Is that normal in this situation (if there is any such thing)? Do you get two partners who are opposite, to try and piece together a whole?
"Your normal" in your polyship is not going to be the same as my normal in mine or anyone else's in theirs. This is all DIY. And as such, there is no "standard normal."

Your polyship makes its own standard to fly by and hold itself accountable to.

Could you be willing to define "whole?" I am not clear.

Because if what this naturally wants to be a kind of "separate V thing" then that is what it wants to be. Whole and intact. It is different than a "V where all are emotionally involved together as friends even if not all are sexually involved" -- but it is not less than that or broken somehow just because it is different model "V."

A car is not a van. A van is not a car. Neither is broken or less than whole because they are different vehicles. Both can run fine for the people riding around in them. Both can get to Miami.

Whether or not you go, or go with THESE people in THIS vehicle... that's a whole other thing. They might want to or might not. Or they might try and come to change their minds. So could you. Take it one thing at a time.

Keep sorting.

GL!
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 04-29-2014 at 11:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-29-2014, 05:47 PM
Bluebird's Avatar
Bluebird Bluebird is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 367
Default

GalaGirl is crazy smart. Listen to her!

Quote:
Since I learned about it, I always thought poly was a way you were born... not something you fall into.
Never in a million years would I say I was born poly. I didn't even know it was an option until last year. But yep, I DO have the capacity to love more than one person at a time. It was a very revolutionary and different idea when I discovered that yes, I was this label.

However, that label can be expressed in many different ways. My poly isn't the same as someone else's poly.

Quote:
None of my family knows. They would not accept it. None of Jason's or Michael's family knows, they would not accept it. Jason asked me to tell the friends whom he's already told that I am leaving Michael. He doesn't want anyone to know. Only two of my closest friends know. We are not planning to tell anyone else. As far as everyone is concerned, Jason's side and to my family and friends... I am only with Jason. For Michael's side... I am only with Michael.
Again, my poly isn't the only way to do things. However, I would have a really hard time keeping up that sort of dual life. I have in the past, but no more. We are all out to everyone. Our families don't accept it - they aren't happy with us. The way I live my life though, is that they can judge me whichever they want, but they don't get to pass judgement. My lifestyle works for me and I do not ask for permission.

Certainly, many poly people are not out to family and friends and it works for them. I just know it didn't work for me. You have to figure out if it works for you.
__________________
Hinge in a poly-fi vee with two mono men
Wife to DarkKnight
Girlfriend to PunkRockAwesomesauce
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-29-2014, 11:05 PM
Marcus's Avatar
Marcus Marcus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Haltom City, TX
Posts: 1,281
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartdoodler View Post
For all intents and purposes... I still see myself as mono. Fine, I don't have to put a label on it, as obviously, I am not mono. I am in love with two men, and asking them both to have a relationship with me. Am I poly? I guess. Do I relate to the open-mindedness obviously of the poly community, where all is fair in love and war, and good for the goose and all? I don't relate to that. I just don't.
I had a conversation with a metamour at one point and he was of the opinion that how we feel about what our partners do (regarding their other relationships) has more to do with "are we poly" than what we personally want to do. The idea "poly friendly" comes up frequently when discussing a mono dating a poly person; the mono person can be fine in their one-at-a-time loving philosophy but they need to embrace their partners poly views in order for it to work.

I'm starting to think that that he was correct. Love is not a scarce resource, therefor humans (who don't have a chemical imbalance making it impossible) can have romantic love for more than one person at a time; that's not up for debate as far as I'm concerned. SO the more clearly distinguishing characteristic between a mono and poly person is not how many people they are in love with, but whether or not they can embrace their partner loving other people... are they poly friendly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartdoodler View Post
I know I am asking for a monogamous relationship with each. Selfish, yes. Absolutely. It's just in my mind and what I am used to. I don't expect you to understand
It is clearly hypocritical to insist upon a double standard like the one you have suggested; but you know that. So the next step is to determine if this is where you want to be.

You seem to resign yourself to "it's just what I'm used to". This is a statement of surrender, as if you have no control over the direction of your thought process. Do you believe that you can't change? Considering this huge change you have recently found yourself making... does it seem likely that there are other aspects of your worldview which you can change if you put your mind to it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartdoodler View Post
Especially with Michael, and that I as one woman was too much for him, putting to much pressure on being with him, that I would certainly get upset if all of a sudden, he could handle two.
Whether you stay with one or both of these fellows, decide to be poly or mono, or whatever, I suggest you take a good look at the kind of relationships you are building with this kind of thinking. This statement has nothing to do with mono or poly, this is just an unhealthy way to look at relating to another human being.

Essentially, this is harboring a resentment because of a past action and then using it as ammunition in a current situation. I'm guessing that he told you to back down because he felt smothered (just a shot in the dark), it hurt your feelings, and now you are holding it over him in a current development which is IN NO WAY RELATED to that past event.

I'm sure GalaGirl can give you a wonderful psychological description of this approach to dealing with disagreement, but I just call it "a great way to torpedo a relationship".

What I'm saying is, poly and these two men are not the issue... you are helping to create unhealthy relationships and stand to gain a great deal if you take a look at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartdoodler View Post
I guess, in a way, I am doing this for him?
You are decidedly not doing any of this for him.
__________________
Independent (Anarchist) Non-Monogamy

Me: male, 40, straight, single
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-30-2014, 03:29 PM
heartdoodler heartdoodler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I'm starting to think that that he was correct. Love is not a scarce resource, therefor humans (who don't have a chemical imbalance making it impossible) can have romantic love for more than one person at a time; that's not up for debate as far as I'm concerned. SO the more clearly distinguishing characteristic between a mono and poly person is not how many people they are in love with, but whether or not they can embrace their partner loving other people... are they poly friendly?
Hi Marcus, I appreciate your perspective. However, I would say, this is all very individual. Some people, and I have met many, do not have the capacity for multiple love. In a way, I have always considered myself open-minded, and so I knew that I would have this capacity, but never thought I would have the desire. I have always been a multi-dater. Since I've been single, when in an attempt to find a great partner, I have been of the mind that I could date more than one guy at a time, and get to know more than one person at a time. There are people, however, who do not have this desire, do not have this mindset or perspective. Love is not a scarce resource, but the kinds of love that one can give, to some, may be. I am not a person who ever wishes or believes that my perspective is the only one that exists, and that what I believe is right, while others' are wrong. As for poly friendly... that is my problem. I know it. I do find myself in this dilemma, as I am poly friendly when it comes to being open-minded an understanding, but this has been thrown into my own world and has been difficult to digest. I know I am still struggling with the notion of being poly friendly as it relates to myself. So, I guess, ultimately, if one has to decide if they are, or if they are not... then I am not. I know. The irony. It is sad, and one of my struggles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
It is clearly hypocritical to insist upon a double standard like the one you have suggested; but you know that. So the next step is to determine if this is where you want to be.
I have not denied the hypocrisy of my desires. But, it is who I am and how I feel. It makes my stomach turn the thought of Michael with another woman. I cannot do that at all... and had it not been for our circumstance, I would truly myself, not be with another man. So, fine, a hypocrite I am. I have to accept that. I do not have the "poly" mindset. I am not into any type of "Open Love" or anything like that. I am open-minded, or at least try to be, but I ask something of Jason that I could not do myself. He did not have to accept it. I cannot let Michael go. I am not ready to. Yet, I know, that I cannot make him happy with the demands I have either, so I have to compromise with myself. I have to take myself outside of my comfort zone. Jason is working through this, and is a little "different" as well in his views of relationship and partnership (I cannot get into it). So, I know he will accept the situation. If he does not. Then, I will understand that and it is his choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
You seem to resign yourself to "it's just what I'm used to". This is a statement of surrender, as if you have no control over the direction of your thought process. Do you believe that you can't change? Considering this huge change you have recently found yourself making... does it seem likely that there are other aspects of your worldview which you can change if you put your mind to it?
"can" and "want" are two different things. I don't want to live a lifestyle where my partners have partners, and their partners, have partners. This is not me. Sorry if that makes me an outcast on these boards. It is just not me. I could see myself in a Closed V Triad (I guess that is what you call it)... where me and two other people (MFF or MFM) are in a committed relationship. But, not where it is open. I have no interest in that whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Essentially, this is harboring a resentment because of a past action and then using it as ammunition in a current situation. I'm guessing that he told you to back down because he felt smothered (just a shot in the dark), it hurt your feelings, and now you are holding it over him in a current development which is IN NO WAY RELATED to that past event.
Marcus, here is where you have gotten it totally wrong and confused. No, Michael did not feel smothered. That was not the issue in our relationship. The issue was that I wanted to do things as a family, have our families together (his kids, my kids), do vacations together and be included when he went to family functions. I wanted to be part of his life, and not something that was more left like it was on the side. It is totally different than what you've described, and another story altogether.

I am not holding anything over him. I love him, and am trying to find a way that will make it so we both get what we want... to be together. But, we can both be happy while we do it... me having a "Family" and him having space to not necessarily have to intertwine me in places where he is not comfortable.

It is difficult to understand without all of the details... but just know, I do not believe I am creating unhealthy relationships. My family does not like Michael for a reason... I love Michael for many reasons. Jason is the ideal of what my family thinks a man, who is committed should be. Jason is the type of guy, that I would have totally fallen for, mono, had I not met and fallen head over heels for Michael first.

Michael and I are in the same boat. We both deeply love one another, but we know, he cannot fully satisfy what I am looking for in a relationship. It puts too much stress and pressure on him to try and do so. Because of this, we even joked one time that I should get another partner who can meet that need. That was two years ago. I never in a million years thought I would actually do it.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-30-2014, 04:20 PM
Marcus's Avatar
Marcus Marcus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Haltom City, TX
Posts: 1,281
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartdoodler View Post
I have not denied the hypocrisy of my desires. But, it is who I am and how I feel.
Then embrace your limitations and move on, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heartdoodler View Post
Marcus, here is where you have gotten it totally wrong and confused.
The whole story is pretty confusing to me so I commented on what I imagined was happening. It makes even less sense to me now. It's pretty unlikely that any of my views or experiences are likely to help in this sort of situation so I'm going to butt out.
__________________
Independent (Anarchist) Non-Monogamy

Me: male, 40, straight, single
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-30-2014, 04:26 PM
heartdoodler heartdoodler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Then embrace your limitations and move on, I guess.
Agreed, and I have.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The whole story is pretty confusing to me so I commented on what I imagined was happening. It makes even less sense to me now. It's pretty unlikely that any of my views or experiences are likely to help in this sort of situation so I'm going to butt out.
This might be helpful... not sure it will help you relate to the story and further... but, might be helpful context.

Michael is Chinese (only male child) and I am a black female. Michael's family does not accept me, and he does not want to be disowned from his family. We cannot have a family together, without the stress of him never being with his own family again. So, it has caused severe stress in our relationship, and requires us to do things separately than that of a true couple.

This has been an incredibly difficult situation for both of us. My family simply labels it "racist" and tells me I should not love him because of his racist family. His family wants absolutely nothing to do with me. We have fallen in love despite all of those odds...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:54 PM.