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  #11  
Old 03-23-2014, 11:56 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Kernow View Post
My view is that none of those reasons are valid, if he wants this encounter fair enough but if he doesn't trust her or himself or if he is worried about his relationship with C then he shouldn't get involved. It isn't really my responsibility to meet any of those needs.
I couldn't agree more. Basically, if he's insecure about himself in this other relationship, then it's his responsibility to confront that issue. If C is insecure than it's her responsibility to voice her concerns and do her own self-care. If this other woman is such a potential threat, then like you say, maybe he's better off staying away.

For me, as more of an exhibitionist, I don't think it would be much fun being watched by someone who's bored out of their mind. I wouldn't take it personally or think that it means I'm boring, but I would probably get distracted if their energy was completely messing up the scene.
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  #12  
Old 03-24-2014, 02:31 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I think me being there is also partly about keeping him safe and reminding the new woman (J) that he is attached (she doesn't need reminding).
So you think he wants you around to be his safeword person because he's worried about getting caught up in topspace with a new playmate he's not played with before and you don't want to serve in that capacity? Have you asked him if this is what he is after?

Could he call one of his other playmates to serve in that role? Be his safeword/chaperone person? SHE could bring one of her safeword/playmates that know her well/chaperone type persons too. Or they could agree to play out a few mild scenes in a public play space to build up trust and get to know each other in that context before having a private scene. There's other ways to meet the need for "feel safe enough to scene" without you being there.

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Maybe there is also something in his head that makes him feel that C will feel better about it if I am there to ensure that he doesn't cross any boundaries.
You think he thinks he wants you to be playing referee in the (Him + C) relationship?

A polyship is made up of all the other mini relationships within it, but in that tier of it? They can deal with it. If you have asked him and he confirmed this is what he's thinking... you could suggest he ask C herself what she needs to feel good about boundary keeping -- you aren't "the enforcer" or the "security blanket" for either of them.

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My view is that none of those reasons are valid, if he wants this encounter fair enough but if he doesn't trust her or himself or if he is worried about his relationship with C then he shouldn't get involved.

I think safety is a good reason, but again that could be met without YOU being the safeword/chaperone person.

Quote:
It isn't really my responsibility to meet any of those needs.
Yup. You can opt out. Your "willing and able" to participate in things belongs to YOU. And if you find you are not willing you can opt out.

I could guess wrong... but this chunk below sounds like you bargaining with you to give yourself permission to say "No" and feel ok with it by putting the onus on HIM rather than you owning your "No."

  • NO -- because YOU did not show enough consideration for me or playmate. If you had, then I would have come.
  • NO -- I am not willing to come.

That's 2 different kinds of "no."

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If he just wants me to watch because it would make him feel good in some way i wouldn't really mind doing it, but I don't think he has thought clearly about my needs/feelings or about how J (the new woman) may feel.
Have you asked him if he wants you to come watch because it makes him feel good in some way?

What does this chunk mean? He has to demonstrate this first:
he has thought clearly about my needs/feelings or about how J (the new woman) may feel. (in what way? and how would you both know it and measure it?)
and then you will provide this:
I will go watch to help him feel good. That changes your willingness to attend? Or you still are not really willing to go but you go anyway against your willingness?
Could you please be willing to clarify?

If you ask and he verifies that he's concerned about losing himself to topspace with a new playmate or not picking up her cues well, that's considering how she may feel. Nobody wants to end up in a scene gone wrong. Could you specify what other behavior you want from him that would demonstrate (consideration for how she feels or might feel) to you? Is he aware this is the behavior you want?

In your case, he's asked you, given you time to think about it, and is willing to accept your decision. What other behavior would you like from him that demonstrates (consideration for how you feel or might feel) to you? Is he aware this is the behavior you want?

I could totally guess wrong there. But I'm still hearing "No, I don't want to go. Thanks for asking nicely -- I did like that!" And the rest sounds like you struggling to say "No" and own it.

And preparing yourself for watching possible disappointment in him that you don't want to see/like watching because you don't like disappointing people.

It's ok to let other people digest their own feelings -- you are not responsible for their feelings.

Is that where this is?

You mentioned elsewhere that your spouse has Asperger. Perhaps in some ways you end up doing some caregiving for him, but caregiving is not careTAKING. Where you take on all his cares and all his problems he gets himself into and you have to solve it.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 03-24-2014 at 03:07 PM.
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  #13  
Old 03-24-2014, 07:13 PM
Kernow Kernow is offline
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GalaGirl you are very perceptive and your questions have cut through the confusion to the root of the issue. Thank you.

Yes, he has Aspergers and to some extent it can create issues with communication. That is why I was so pleased when he expressed what he wanted clearly and with a degree of consideration, and that is why a part of me wanted to say yes to his request. It seems harsh to say no when he has tried hard to get it right.

I have asked him the questions that you raised. He is not worried about top space exactly, part of the reason he wants me there is because he is afraid of being too unfeeling and not being able to deal with what happens afterwards (sub drop etc). He is also worried about the new woman (J) being too needy/clingy. If he has picked up on that then I really don't think he should get involved - but of course that is his decision not mine. She is capable of knowing what she is getting into and of looking after herself, and if he wants this he needs to cope with all that it entails (it would just be easier for him to rely on me).

He said that having me there would make it more exciting for him and I think he is being honest with me about that. He thinks I would enjoy it and I can see why he thinks that, I have been a bit reluctant about other things in the past and have got used to them and actively enjoyed them after a while. However I am quite clear about this, it wouldn't hurt me or upset me, but I just don't want it.

So what you were hearing was me arguing with myself, wanting to say no but feeling 'obliged' to say yes (partly because he asked nicely and partly because it is easier to just be there as an 'enabler' than to help him to pick up the pieces afterwards.

I have decided to say no about being there, however if C agrees to it happening I will help him to plan it (if he wants my help) and talk it through with him so that he feels as safe and confident as possible.
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2014, 08:39 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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It seems harsh to say no when he has tried hard to get it right.
Seems "harsh" to WHO? You? Him?

Quote:
He is not worried about top space exactly, part of the reason he wants me there is because he is afraid of being too unfeeling and not being able to deal with what happens afterwards (sub drop etc).
So... could get a chaperone/safeword person in there that is not you supplied by him and/or the playmate.

Then BOTH your needs can be met.
  • Your need to not be there
  • His need for safety person present

Quote:
He is also worried about the new woman (J) being too needy/clingy.
Too needy or cling for WHO? Him?

If him...
  • Then he could not go there at all.
  • He could go there for one scene and bow out after if it isn't his cup of tea after all/they are not compatible.

Up to him to make his choices.

Quote:
if he wants this he needs to cope with all that it entails (it would just be easier for him to rely on me).
Yup. Caregiving is HELPING, not DO IT FOR YOU-ing. If you do that it becomes taking on his cares (caretaking.) That's not healthy for YOU. Great for him, maybe, but that's the path to caregiver burn out.

You can help him make out his plan and think things out if he asks for help. Or you can offer if you see him struggling. But do not relieve him of doing all his own thinking -- encourage him to think it out and see how he does first. Don't leap in to solve to rescue.

Quote:
He said that having me there would make it more exciting for him and I think he is being honest with me about that.
Sure. That's his POV / preference.
Quote:
I just don't want it.
And that is your limit, so you could state it firmly, and he could respect it.

Quote:
So what you were hearing was me arguing with myself, wanting to say no but feeling 'obliged' to say yes (partly because he asked nicely and partly because it is easier to just be there as an 'enabler' than to help him to pick up the pieces afterwards.
I do eldercare -- and I know it's not the same as Asperger's. But I go for long term health (MINE and the patient) even if it is a PITA in the moment.

Because I know sometimes it can feel easier to "just get it over with" to gain in the short term, but that is enabling in the long term. Me doing that really doesn't help the patient stay self sufficient as long as possible because I deny the patient opportunity/challenges.

It also dings my own health if I let myself get sucked in past healthy boundaries over and over -- always on "alert" and never chill is very stressy.

There has to be a healthy balance there.

Quote:
I have decided to say no about being there, however if C agrees to it happening I will help him to plan it (if he wants my help) and talk it through with him so that he feels as safe and confident as possible.
That's reasonable. HELP him, not do it FOR him. He has to want your help, ask you for it, and THEN you help. You just don't swoop in and do it all for him so he doesn't even have to ask.

Hang in there!

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 03-24-2014 at 08:46 PM.
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  #15  
Old 03-24-2014, 11:34 PM
Kernow Kernow is offline
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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Seems "harsh" to WHO? You? Him?
It makes me feel that I'm being harsh towards him by not agreeing to his request

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
So... could get a chaperone/safeword person in there that is not you supplied by him and/or the playmate.

Then BOTH your needs can be met.
No, he wouldn't accept another person there (Aspie issues) and he doesn't play in public. But that doesn't make it my problem. If he can't deal with it without my help then he probably shouldn't do it.

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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Too needy or cling for WHO? Him? :confused
Yes too needy for him (from the little I know I think he is probably right)

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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
If him...
  • Then he could not go there at all.
  • He could go there for one scene and bow out after if it isn't his cup of tea after all/they are not compatible.

Up to him to make his choices.
Yes I agree completely. I think he only wants a one off or very casual thing anyway. I will respect his choice but J comes with 'baggage', previously he has chosen people who were much more clear about wanting a one off/very occasional no strings sort of thing. Anyway I've pointed that out to him so now he has to decide if it is right for him or not. He lacks emotional intelligence sometimes, but he is not stupid so I have to trust him on this.

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Originally Posted by GalaGirl View Post
Yup. Caregiving is HELPING, not DO IT FOR YOU-ing. If you do that it becomes taking on his cares (caretaking.) That's not healthy for YOU. Great for him, maybe, but that's the path to caregiver burn out.
We have been together a long time and it has been a very rough ride at times, but lots of very good bits too. I like things the way they are and I wouldn't change it, but over the years I have understood the importance of looking after myself and my needs because he doesn't always recognise/understand my needs/feelings. I should have probably made it clearer in previous posts that he is very intelligent and very capable, he doesn't need 'care', he just needs help with issues around emotional intelligence/understanding people's feelings and motives.

Thanks for your help and advice.
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  #16  
Old 03-25-2014, 12:21 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Kernow View Post
He is also worried about the new woman (J) being too needy/clingy. If he has picked up on that then I really don't think he should get involved - but of course that is his decision not mine.
This is true, but that does not mean you cannot use your influence with him to voice your objection to the matter and encourage him to seek a different, less clingy partner. That doesn't mean you're controlling him or anything, he'll still make his own choice, but sometimes it's the responsibility of loved ones to tell us when we're being careless, if we don't catch it ourselves.

A couple times, Gralson was wanting to get into BDSM playdates. I forget where he put his ads, Kijiji I think, when they still had personals... anyway, he kept getting replies from married women whose husbands weren't, or assumed wouldn't, be interested in Domming them. A couple times he brought me to meet them. I came along, it was just coffee after all. But every time, I spoke very clearly that I thought it was a terrible idea, helping some woman cheat on her husband. There was the whole ethics of cheating of course, and me not wanting any part of that... but also, the last thing I wanted was some big scary husband showing up at my door wanting to punch my husband's face in.
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  #17  
Old 03-25-2014, 12:49 AM
Kernow Kernow is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
This is true, but that does not mean you cannot use your influence with him to voice your objection to the matter and encourage him to seek a different, less clingy partner. That doesn't mean you're controlling him or anything, he'll still make his own choice, but sometimes it's the responsibility of loved ones to tell us when we're being careless, if we don't catch it ourselves.
Yes, I see what you mean. I have voiced my concerns. It sounds odd in the context of bdsm but we have a sort of 'do no harm' agreement. By that I mean not getting involved with people who are vulnerable and not knowingly using/doing emotional harm to people. J is someone that he has been friends with for several years (mostly online). She has other partners, but she is not attached in the sense of being married or in a committed relationship. I think she is vulnerable anyway, but one of her partners has recently died. My first husband died (in very different circumstances) and I know that a close loss like that can leave you vulnerable for for many months or even years afterwards.

I may make one more attempt to advise caution and to point out the possible problems. After that I have to accept that they are both adults and if it is still what he/they both want I will not stand in their way.
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  #18  
Old 03-25-2014, 01:18 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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I wouldn't scene with a Dom who didn't express a good aftercare plan. If he's "too Aspie" to understand how to do that, he needs to do some research and work on that aspect. It's just as important as tying, flogging, or whatever play he does. If part of his research involved finding a mentor/dungeon keeper kind of person, so be it. I think a good Dom is a responsible Dom.
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  #19  
Old 03-25-2014, 07:39 AM
Kernow Kernow is offline
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I wouldn't scene with a Dom who didn't express a good aftercare plan. If he's "too Aspie" to understand how to do that, he needs to do some research and work on that aspect. It's just as important as tying, flogging, or whatever play he does. If part of his research involved finding a mentor/dungeon keeper kind of person, so be it. I think a good Dom is a responsible Dom.
He understands it all in theory. His 'issue' is not due to lack of knowledge, lack of research or lack of experience. C and I both get sub drop occasionally so he is used to recognising it and he is used to our very different reactions, what bothers him is the very random nature of it. He really isn't as horrible as this makes him sound (he isn't horrible at all, actually he is a very kind man) but it is down to lack of inclination to deal with it or to engage emotionally on these occasions. I will talk to him specifically about this and suggest that if this encounter is going to happen he needs to be very clear with her about aftercare and about how long he intends to stay so that she understands in advance what the arrangements are. She will then have to decide if this is right for her or not.
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  #20  
Old 03-25-2014, 11:13 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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(he isn't horrible at all, actually he is a very kind man) but it is down to lack of inclination to deal with it or to engage emotionally on these occasions.
I think these statements contradict each other. Aftercare is just as important as the actual play. Lack of aftercare can be miserable, even physically dangerous for a sub. If a Dom has a lack of inclination to take responsibility for aftercare, he has no place getting someone into subspace.

Period.


Quote:
I will talk to him specifically about this and suggest that if this encounter is going to happen he needs to be very clear with her about aftercare and about how long he intends to stay so that she understands in advance what the arrangements are. She will then have to decide if this is right for her or not.
If he just throws a bottle of water at her and leaves, yeah, she might need to have a caring friend on call nearby to wrap her in a blanket, hold her for an hour (or longer if neccessary), get her chocolate, watch a movie, make sure she is coherent, etc. Needing aftercare isn't "clinginess," it is hormonal, emotional, and ideally a time for the Top and submissive to cuddle and come back to reality.

I once made the mistake of doing some D/s play just on the phone with a guy I didn't know very well, and while I was pretty deep into it, he had another ("important") call and left me hanging, shivering, not knowing if he was coming back. And he didn't come back and I just had to handle it on my own. Needless to say, it was a good reminder for me to not play with Dom-asses, and it sure taught me not to meet him for any IRL play!
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