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  #21  
Old 02-24-2014, 04:36 PM
bofish bofish is offline
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Default London...

London,

In conversation, you make harsh comments such as "a wife like you" or that "in nonsense." Then, when I address what you said (in this case with articles) you ignore it entirely and go onto the next thing. This makes it hard to have a dialog.

SCat: I 100% agree with everything you said. The exception is the analogy. With Japanese, I was trying to make the analogy between race and disability. This is extremely controversial, but it is my belief that there is no difference between race and disability (or sexuality). Just because a person moves or thinks differently does not make them less than and they should not be treat accordingly.

K- I always love you arguments which I find well-composed and loving. I would only say this about Hawking - which you might agree - if Hawking where a normal disabled dude - he would still be valid as a human being. Disability activists guard against people like him because it perpetuates the idea of the Super Crip meaning if you are disabled by able to be superhuman and "overcome" you are OK and valid. Every disabled person deseveres to be loved, has a sex life, a job and be respected, they don't have to be a genius.

I TOTALLY Understand this was not what you meant...but just saying.
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  #22  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:15 PM
london london is offline
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Im telling you that is nonsense because it is. I'm saying that as a trained midwife and explaining the actual rationale for those kind of definitive tests. Not the rationale pro life movements claim.

The routine testing that article is talking about has been offered here for years. It's basic first world maternity care and gives people a longer time to get used to the idea of having a child with additional needs. It isn't definitive and some parents opt not to find out. It's news in the US because your universal .maternity care is primitive. Here, it helps to allow people make informed choices and the baby gets the safest birth. Lots of time to get max info and plan ahead.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/pregnan...-syndrome.aspx

Last edited by london; 02-24-2014 at 07:29 PM.
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  #23  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:22 PM
bofish bofish is offline
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Default Super Crip

" supercrips are those disabled figures favored in the media, products of either extremely low expec- tations (disability by definition means incompetence, so anything a disabled person does, no matter how mundane or banal, merits exaggerated praise) or extremely high expectations (disabled people must accomplish incredibly difficult, and therefore inspiring, tasks to be worthy of nondisabled attention)." From Alison Kaufer

London, you have a point. The attitudes in general about disability in England are vastly different... and I'm assuming Down's doesn't have a high abortion rate there?

But to argue that people do not abort fetuses because they have mild manageable disabilities is nonsense. This does happen. It is the focus of Andrew Solomon's 800 page book.
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  #24  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:38 PM
london london is offline
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Second article is good. Maybe early diagnosis is why more people with Downs achieve. Born to parents who chose to have them as they are.
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  #25  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:40 PM
london london is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bofish View Post
" supercrips are those disabled figures favored in the media, products of either extremely low expec- tations (disability by definition means incompetence, so anything a disabled person does, no matter how mundane or banal, merits exaggerated praise) or extremely high expectations (disabled people must accomplish incredibly difficult, and therefore inspiring, tasks to be worthy of nondisabled attention)." From Alison Kaufer

London, you have a point. The attitudes in general about disability in England are vastly different... and I'm assuming Down's doesn't have a high abortion rate there?

But to argue that people do not abort fetuses because they have mild manageable disabilities is nonsense. This does happen. It is the focus of Andrew Solomon's 800 page book.
Manageable for who? Who decides what i can manage?
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  #26  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:50 PM
london london is offline
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I found the follow up to the third article and:


"Jim England, the chief crown prosecutor for West Mercia, said the doctors believed, in good faith, that there was a substantial risk the child would be seriously handicapped. "In these circumstances, I decided that there was insufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction and that there should be no charges against either of the doctors," he said."

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...thandwellbeing

So basically the baby was believed to be severely disabled. Facial disfigurement was one aspect. Just as i said.
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  #27  
Old 02-24-2014, 08:10 PM
bofish bofish is offline
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I am not trying to guess what people can manage or tell them what to do.

As S. Cat said, women are always the ones to decide. And I feel perfectly comfortable saying someone is a jerk because they abort a child who will be deaf, blind, or have a 'disfigurement." As far as people having a child with the expectation (possibility) of say heart disease: that doesn't make sense to me - ANY child could have heart disease.

I have to friends - one has a baby with Downs. One has a teenager who due to father's abuse (now divorced) won't go to therapy nor school. He does drugs all day and watches TV. Which of these children will mean the longer term care, effort, and stress for their family - who knows. People make the assumption that it is better or easier not to be disabled or parent someone with a disability. I think the assumption that an able child will be easier is a dangerous one.

Btw: I love this woman -she''s hot!

http://femmegimp.org
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  #28  
Old 02-24-2014, 08:56 PM
london london is offline
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You'd only know if a child would be deaf or blind before they are born if there is a high risk of them having some other condition that presents with those impairments. You'd know that through prenatal screening. So the child is unlikely to be "just" deaf. Hereditary conditions exist but its safe to say this group of potential parents have enough experience of whatever they have/carry to know if it's within their capabilities.

The other way babies are born blind or deaf is through birth injury. They are starved of oxygen during labour and suffer HIE. The areas of the brain affected may be those responsible for sight or hearing. Premature babies are susceptible to brain injuries too. Both through lack of oxygen and their high risk of hemorrhage. They have weak vessels and unstable blood pressure, bad combo. Of course, in the case of prematurity and injury during labour, people aren't choosing to become parents of a disabled child.
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  #29  
Old 02-24-2014, 09:01 PM
london london is offline
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And I'm talking about the book you referenced, how can he define manageable?
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  #30  
Old 02-25-2014, 12:12 AM
seakinganswers seakinganswers is offline
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I hate the terms Pro-Choice and Pro-Life. As if to say people who believe abortion is murder are somehow against a woman's right to choose what to do with her body and that people who belief it's simply a choice are somehow pro murder. The arguments seem to be mutually exclusive of each other.

I tend to lean toward pro life not because I know for a fact that its a human life, but because I don't think that's something I'm willing to risk. And generally I am against any religion or "opinions" being enforced by the government but in this case if it is a life then its not just about the woman's choice but also the baby's life.

Having said that, if I were pro choice and believed without a doubt that the fetus was not yet a real person then I would be 100% in favor of abortions for mentally handicapped people. I have an autistic kid and while I love him dearly the drain on not just myself, but my wife, his little brother and all our family members that have had to chip in both with time and energy and with money is amazing. Not to mention all the experts who so lovingly give of their time. All your tax dollars are helping pay for it too.

On top of that my child will probably never be able to get married and if he did I don't know how to tell him he really can't have children. This would be very good for society as a whole.
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