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  #21  
Old 01-29-2014, 06:28 AM
london london is offline
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This is pretty frank, and not conducive to growing an existing relationship. If you're at level 1 and want to get to level 10 you will need to put more effort than that. I mean, that's always the gamble, that the relationship falls apart altogether.

Relationships are a bit like plants and need constant upkeep just to stay alive. The question is whether you're a cactus or a hydrangea.
That comes from the assumption that relationships must grow. I might be satisfied with how our relationship is at level 1 and feel it unnecessary to progress it further, particularly if it's going to mean change. Why change and possibly ruin something that is perfectly good as it is now? Why gamble?

The things I've said are not conducive to developing relationships, that's why I said one needs an incentive to change their behaviors. As well as typical unorganized stuff, the OP said this guy can be hurtful too. Either by doing something or not doing it. It's this that I'm focusing on. If he has no incentive to try and see things a different way, he won't. If he can still get everything he needs without working that hard, he won't bother.

Last edited by london; 01-29-2014 at 06:32 AM.
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  #22  
Old 01-29-2014, 06:30 AM
london london is offline
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And just to reiterate, this guy is going to absolutely have to change some of his behaviors if he wants happy, healthy relationships with this person at least. I'd hazard a bet that some of his behavior would be intolerable to most people.
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  #23  
Old 01-29-2014, 02:42 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by Spock View Post

I can't really be that autistic since I can pretend to be human, and it's something my brother has said himself; he is a robot stranded on Earth.

The thing to take away is that whip is possibly an alien robot, stranded on Earth, trying to simulate being as human as possible to reduce the loneliness of being here until he passes.

Which sounds horrible...
Yes, it does sound horrible. My bf has Asperger's and I am getting tired of dating an "alien robot," despite his many sterling qualities.
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  #24  
Old 01-29-2014, 04:28 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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I was watching a video on YouTube the other day about Susan Boyle and she was recently diagnosed as having Asperger's. She has also always suffered from debilitating anxiety attacks,which actually prevented her from performing live for four years after she was on Britain's Got Talent.

The doctor she works with said in the video that people with Asperger's don't always know what's appropriate in social situations, and they miss many of the cues that others naturally pick up. If you watch some of the videos about Susan Boyle, you can see that she says and does things that seem weird or are on the edge of inappropriateness. At other times, she sort of freezes for a moment, not knowing what to say. Her doctor also said that it helps Susan when she is encouraged to continue doing things she is good at. So, even though it was incredibly stressful and anxiety-provoking for her to go on tour, it helped her once she accomplished each live concert she gave.

So, maybe encouraging someone with Asberger's to keep finding and using their talents and to move forward in doing what they're really good at, could have a positive effect on them and help diffuse the frustration that results in dealing with the things they bungle due to not reading and understanding the social cues you might feel are obvious.


Though ADD/ADHD is a different thing, encouraging would probably help with that, too. Here is an article I found which talks about the difference between ADD/ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome:
http://www.drhallowell.com/add-adhd/...-disorder-add/

And here is a free e-book on evaluating whether someone has ADD/ADHD or something else:
http://assets.addgz4.com/pub/free-do...ItsNotADHD.pdf

Most of the stuff you find about diagnosing ADD and ADHD focuses on children, but I have found articles here and there that are for adults, and I think Additudemag.com is good for that.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 01-29-2014 at 05:19 PM.
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  #25  
Old 01-29-2014, 04:39 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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You know, I have more sympathy now for posters who start a thread and then go - 'wait, he, she, they are not that awful! You don't have all the facts!' *Laughs at self*

I don't think Whip is autistic. He thinks he is probably on the mild end of the spectrum. He can be bad at reading social cues and he can be socially awkward at times. But I think people conflate being socially awkward with autism too readily nowadays.

The social awkwardness, I believe, is in large part because of his ADHD. Hard to learn to pick up cues when one can't focus on the conversation, much less all the tiny details that make up social cues. I would be interested to know if folks with ADHD and their partners have found this to be true in their lives.

And part of my difficulties are in the context. I've mostly dated women, who overall tend to be more empathic than men. Beaker is extremely empathic. She frequently knew what I was feeling before I did. She is also very socially adept. And now, I'm seeing someone who is even less empathic than me - for a woman, I'm on the lower 'normal' end of empathy. (I'm in the normal area on the male range.) I'm used to people who never needed to be told a broad range of things because they can read my face or body language and who shared my assumptions about social interactions.

For example, I asked Whip to get an tylenol for me while I was cooking. He brought it down and offered it to me without water. I motioned him to put it down -I don't like taking pills without water and said something like 'water' - what exactly is unclear in my mind. He set the pill on the counter, filled a glass with water and walked away taking the glass with him! I was so angry and could not understand why he would do that. My assumption is that people do not just get water for themselves when it is obvious that someone else also needs water. My assumption is that most people would have filled a glass for me and one for themselves. When I brought it up to him, he took my motioning as that I would do it myself. He also understood my mumbled water as 'later' and came to the same conclusion. He was not trying to make me feel ignored and less than important. But that is what I felt. And I was just unable to express to him why I was upset. I don't think he really understands still

This is the kind of thing I would appreciate thoughts on, how to manage interactions like this. I don't expect him to become a social wizard or to read my mind. I would like to meet somewhere in the middle where he does things like this less and I mind less when they do happen.

Last edited by opalescent; 01-29-2014 at 07:04 PM.
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  #26  
Old 01-29-2014, 05:14 PM
Spock Spock is offline
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Oh man.

I mean, that's nothing to do with 'autism' proper, and just how people are different at interpreting the same scenario.

My wife explicitly tells me to grab water and Tylenol... because I would just swallow the Tylenol dry.

She also tells me a full glass because if I had a big pill to swallow I only need about a tablespoon of water to get it down.

So maybe after several repeated interactions I have understood that she needs water, and more of it, than I. If this were inconsistent then I wouldn't have formed any sort of mental model.

We just recently moved into an apartment with a combo shower-bath, and it's taken a while for me to remember (and I still forget!) to release the water after I take a shower; she hates getting sprayed with cold water!

This took quite a few... heated exchanges to remind me to keep remembering.

I have kids and a dog; that's about as alien as you can get because, literally, the kids are still forming and the dog tops out at the mental age of 3. If I want consistently good behavior out of them I need to consistently encourage and remind them, and periodically remind them afterwards, until said behavior sticks.

The difference here is that whip might not actually have the mindset to extrapolate from behaviors A and B to C... like a dog. My dog knows what is good in context A, and context B, but if in context C?

So example: We trained her with the commands 'up' and 'jump'. Why train them to do this? So that we can control when she does it. So she can't go on the couch or bed unless we say up (though we know she does it when we aren't home! We don't punish her for it because, well, she's alone and misses us). The same with jump; we give her this command so that she associates it with a command and treat, so she doesn't jump on people unless they ask for it.

Which, of course, no one does.

However, there is a dog park with a ramp, a hurdle, and a tube. First try I get her to jump over the hurdle, into the tube, and over the ramp because of these commands even though she has no experience with them at all:

'Kira, come' gets her to follow me.
I start jogging, which sets her pace
'Kira, jump' gets her to clear the hurdle
'Good girl!' gets her to know she did it correctly
'Kira up!' gets her into the tube
I run towards the ramp, which tells her to go through the tube
'Good girl!' lets her know she was supposed to go through the tube. If I didn't do both of the above then she just turns around and comes out the same side.
'Kira up!' tells her to jump onto the ramp
I keep running, which gets her to follow me onto the other side of the ramp
'Good girl!' tells her she has completed the ramp successfully
'Kira sit!' is a well practiced command she knows to do without any anxiety

I then give her a treat to reinforce all of the above behaviors, most of which are brand new to her.

Of course, as I previously said, I already live mechanistically so this isn't exactly hard for me. I can see why for the less structured they might not be used to doing so.

And, again, people have raged against me for acting like life is a game with rules and instructions and programming... except that, as far as I can tell, it is.
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  #27  
Old 01-29-2014, 05:26 PM
Spock Spock is offline
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Also, to enrage the neurotypicals, yes, people are animals and can be trained, have pavlovian responses, etc.
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  #28  
Old 01-29-2014, 07:08 PM
london london is offline
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My wife explicitly tells me to grab water and Tylenol...becauseI would justswallow theTylenol dry.

She also tells me a full glass because if I had a big pill to swallow I only need about a tablespoon of water to get it down.

So maybe after several repeated interactions I have understood that she needs water, and more of it, than I. If this were inconsistent then I wouldn't haveformed any sort of mental model.
This is the same for me..obviously with my family and not your wife. I can sometimes surprise everyone by connecting the dots myself and even going onto think of something that wouldn't have occurred to them because I've worked out their "pattern".
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  #29  
Old 01-29-2014, 07:22 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Whip was happy he realized on his own that giving me products from his other partner's business for Christmas would not have been a good idea. I like my metamour but we are not best buds.

I did give him cred for doing that. (Maybe should have added a biscuit! )

I personally know we are very trainable entities. The difference I've found is that we train ourselves. It's better when we do this consciously but it happens regardless.

For example, I cannot let myself go to a fast food place. I am utterly incapable of ordering the 'less bad' selections off the menu. If I am standing in line or in the drivethru, I will order the large fries and burger (or equivalent). It is Pavlovian on my part. Sometimes complete with drool.

Last edited by opalescent; 01-29-2014 at 07:25 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-29-2014, 07:48 PM
Spock Spock is offline
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Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
Whip was happy he realized on his own that giving me products from his other partner's business for Christmas would not have been a good idea. I like my metamour but we are not best buds.

I did give him cred for doing that. (Maybe should have added a biscuit! )

I personally know we are very trainable entities. The difference I've found is that we train ourselves. It's better when we do this consciously but it happens regardless.

For example, I cannot let myself go to a fast food place. I am utterly incapable of ordering the 'less bad' selections off the menu. If I am standing in line or in the drivethru, I will order the large fries and burger (or equivalent). It is Pavlovian on my part. Sometimes complete with drool.
Here's another dog training lesson we experience.

Submissive dog's pee when they greet each other in order to broadcast their social status.

So here's how not to react: Yelling, anger, disappointment. Your dog will pick up on those cues and think, "Oh, I have made my master unhappy. Next time I see them I will have to pee better so they know how submissive I am."

On the other hand, eating cat poop isn't actually a behavior I want to encourage; disappointment and 'bad dog!' is enough to get my dog to slink, all by herself, to her bed for a timeout. Just asking, "Did you eat the cat poop?" is enough if she has.

So how this applies here; if I am trying my best and I screw up, yelling at me gets me to try harder, which actually means I screw up more.

If I am doing something wrong, in trying my best, then ignore the behavior and encourage the proper behavior. The way to train a dog not to urinate upon greeting? House train them so they know they should only pee in the grass.

Then ignore the pee in the house, greet them as normal, take them outside to pee (since they probably have more!), and clean up the stain in the house. Be sure to praise the dog for peeing outside to reinforce the positive behavior.

Now, to be sure, being angry at me does work too, but only after lots of explanation. The 'bad dog' equivalent has to have a clear behavior that you want to eliminate. In my case it was:
1) Leaving the shower mode on
2) Making food for my wife without following her instructions

It's not even necessary to yell, but being complex it sometimes happens. Sometimes I don't connect the dots by myself when I am expected to, sometimes I just forget.

More here: http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtua...sive-urination
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