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Old 11-10-2013, 06:05 AM
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ColorsWolf ColorsWolf is offline
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Default Feelings on "Pets"

These are just my thoughts on "Pets", feel free to share your own thoughts to ^_^ :

I do not like it when people try to force their will on other people.~ All creatures are people and individually are persons.~ All is equal and has neither more nor less value or meaning.~ This is why I dislike how many people think of and treat "pets".~ Would I mind the idea of a creature coming to me and us developing a bond of friendship? No, I would not mind that.~ All "pet" means to me is simply another word for "companion" or "friend", but referring specifically to a friend who is not Human.~

Precious children dancing in the fields of pixies through nurturing and love they may bloom like flowers, through neglect and forget they may turn sour, who can say who can be? The duality of everything in existence it not be. So simple as 'either' 'or', no, a tidal wave of life crescendos into a symphony of possibility.~ Possibilities beating into the veins of the heart of nature.~

Children can be protected and nurtured, but eventually all children, regardless of what kind of creature they are, grow up. All creatures, especially when they reach adulthood, may come and go as they please and make their own decisions, regardless of what kind of creature they are.~

As much as I love creatures like dogs and cats, I can not bring myself to "keep them" as adults as every part of me is screaming not to.~ I will raise creatures to adults, but I will raise them to be more independent of me as they get older until they are completely able to take care of themselves as adults as I believe this is what being a parent who truly cares about their child's happiness will do.~

I will never tell them where they can or can't go and I will never treat them like property without any rights of their own .~ For just because they are different than me, does not make me better than them.~ I think we could all learn a lesson from that.~
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:42 AM
london london is offline
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So you'd get a puppy or kitten, raise it to an adult, and then send it out hunting/scavenging for its own food so you can declare it "independent"? You'd let your cat or dog do as they like which may include trespassing, damaging other people or their property and generally causing havoc in the community. I really think you need to read over what you say because a lot of it isn't based in reality.

Last edited by london; 11-10-2013 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:36 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Housecats cannot feed themselves. They learn hunting from their moms as kittens, and if their moms are kibble fed housecats then they themselves won't have the skills to pass on. Are you saying you go out and bring them home half-dead mice which you then kill and eat in front of them so they get the idea, and then bring them progressively less and less dead mice until eventually you bring them one fully alive and let them kill it? Even as a graduate of my cat's "teach a monkey to hunt in only 30 days" training program (¥), I can't imagine how any civilized ape could possibly know enough about feline hunting skills to pass those skills on to a kitten.

Raising a kitten and then releasing it as an adult is akin to putting out a bird feeder all summer and then quitting filling it upon the first snow fall.

Dogs have been bred over many millenia to not only accept their human masters, but to truly love their role. Dogs are pack animals and even in the wild, they choose a leader to follow. It's the role they're most comfortable in. The cruelest thing you can do to a pack animal is turn it out on its own. That's what wolves do to individuals they see as inferior and unworthy of the pack, and it's the ultimate rejection. Lone dogs not only tend to starve to death, but they do it with the misery of having been rejected from the only family they've ever known. And you would have me believe me you do this as a kindness?

Whether or not you approve of the past 30,000 years of dog breeding is irrelevant. It's done, and now domestic dogs not only want, but need humans for their livelihood. It brings them genuine happiness to be with us, to have our love and approval. The free food, padded bed, and flea powder ain't so bad either. Look at packs of wild dogs with their protruding ribs and miserable sad eyes if you want see what happens when we abandon them.

Besides, any cat caregiver will tell you who's really the boss. I let my cats out whenever they want. Do you think I force them to come in when they get chilly, fill their bellies with food they didn't have to chase down before curling up in their luxurious Special Spot, somehow managing with their 10 lbs of body to occupy my entire queen size bed?? They beg for my attention and demand access to my lap, especially if I'm trying to do homework. I have had lost cats run into my house when the door was open and make themselves at home. You presumably find your home quite comforting when it's pouring rain out. Is it such a stretch that your cats prefer this, as well? I assure you, my cats are anything but captive prisoners.

(¥) Yep. My cat took me through the whole routine that her mom took her through. First she brought me dead mice and left them for me to eat. I politely disposed of them when she wasn't looking, but she thought I ate them. Next they started coming back less and less dead. She'd show me how to kill them. Eventually she brought me one that was maimed and bleeding all over, but still very much alive. She watched me euthanize it by dropping a log on it, quick and painless. I was traumatized, to put it mildly. That was my final exam. I passed, was certified capable of looking after myself by my doting pet, and she never brought me another mouse again. True story.
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:49 AM
london london is offline
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I can't imagine how any civilized ape could possibly know enough about feline hunting skills to pass those skills on to a kitten
That would be funny to watch, though. I seriously think people who say things like this have too much time to think. It reminds me of Heather McCartney (ex wife of Paul) who said we should be drinking rats milk.
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Old 11-10-2013, 08:34 AM
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That would be funny to watch, though. I seriously think people who say things like this have too much time to think. It reminds me of Heather McCartney (ex wife of Paul) who said we should be drinking rats milk.
I'm totally picturing walking in with a mouse hanging out of my mouth, then trying to rip its throat out with my useless human incisors.

I can understand feeling upset over the process of animal domestication, but once it's done, we can never go back. If you disagree with keeping pets, the humane solution is euthanasia, not turning them out to fend for their selves. Alley cats and wild dogs simply do not have good lives, and throwing out your pets as soon as they stop being cute cuddly puppies and kittens is worse than irresponsible, it's downright cruel.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
(¥) Yep. My cat took me through the whole routine that her mom took her through. First she brought me dead mice and left them for me to eat. I politely disposed of them when she wasn't looking, but she thought I ate them. Next they started coming back less and less dead. She'd show me how to kill them. Eventually she brought me one that was maimed and bleeding all over, but still very much alive. She watched me euthanize it by dropping a log on it, quick and painless. I was traumatized, to put it mildly. That was my final exam. I passed, was certified capable of looking after myself by my doting pet, and she never brought me another mouse again. True story.
As a cat-mom of a little huntress who's brought two dead mice out of the cellar so far, this is what I've been told to expect. However, I'm hoping they stay dead longer, since maybe she's trying to teach my kids too. ;-)

Count this another vote for not turning domesticated animals out into the wild. One of my cats could probably survive (she seems to have been an outdoor cat before I adopted her), but the other is a big doof, and likely would just run to another house and beg. I would find it cruel to turn them out like that, and they're well past the age of maturity (8 & 11, approximately). They're happy here, they're not trying to leave, and I'm not telling them what to do unless it's "get your face out of my cereal bowl!"
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Old 11-10-2013, 04:17 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
As much as I love creatures like dogs and cats, I can not bring myself to "keep them" as adults as every part of me is screaming not to.~ I will raise creatures to adults, but I will raise them to be more independent of me as they get older until they are completely able to take care of themselves as adults as I believe this is what being a parent who truly cares about their child's happiness will do.~
I'm a crazy pet lady. I totally embrace the label. I have called my dog and my cat my furry children. I think about their wants and needs a lot and try to give them the best possible life I can. I work on being a responsible pet owner.

But I do not actually treat my pets like human children. They are not. They are adult animals with their own distinct needs, emotions, wants, genetics, behavior and on and on. They are indeed people, not human, but people regardless. Anthropomorphizing pets as human children actually does animals a profound disservice. Anthropomorphizing pets puts a filter on our perceptions of pets where we most easily see the parts of pets that most easily match our own human-ness. It clouds our ability to see animals as animals, as people who are not humans, who are very different from us but with whom we have much in common anyway. It is actually anthropomorphizing to raise a pet to adulthood and treat it as a human child who has grown up and is now self-sufficient. As others have pointed out, this is not the reality of most domesticated cats and dogs. And treating them as if they were human children clouds one ability to see animals as they actually are.

It's human to anthropomorphize. We can't help it. And it can be useful in that it drives research to find the places where we and animals share behavior, emotions and so on. Empathy is partly based (I think) on seeing how the other is like us. Anthropomorphizing is important to empathizing with non humans. But I think it is important to realize that anthropomorphizing is a filter that allows us to see some things clearly and obscures others. It's good to be aware of it.

Humans have profoundly changed many animal species. We have animals that we raise to eat or consume their milk in some form. We have others we bred to be transportation or pull plows. It's tens of thousands of years too late to change this. (There is evidence that domesticating animals in various ways changed us too but that is a side note.)

What is new is the extent of domesticated animals serving as emotional support for humans. This is a new 'job' for dogs and cats. Dogs used to have jobs - they herded, helped us hunt, protected us and our other animals. Some kept us company. Cats ate rodents that ate the grain that fed us. Some dogs and cats still do these jobs. But most humans (in the West anyway, this is less true worldwide) do not have jobs or livings that require the jobs dogs used to do. But we do want someone around to love and pay attention to us. Jon Katz has written extensively about this change. I highly recommend any of his books. They are often available in libraries.

The reality is that pets are slaves. They have no choice. They generally cannot chose where they live, who they live with, how they live. And there is another level. They were bred to a point where choice was taken away from them - broadly, domesticated animals cannot survive at all or well away from us. (Feral cats perhaps being an exception.) In an extreme example, bulldogs would die out without humans. They cannot give birth except through C-section because breeders have bred for such a big head that vaginal birth is impossible. I think breeding this extreme is an abomination and utterly irresponsible. But it highlights the utter dependence and lack of choice and options of domesticated dogs and cats.

I am a slave owner. I try to be a responsible one. My slaves will never be able to be anything other than a slave. Yet, they are very individual and bring me much joy.

I think not wanting or having pets for ethical reasons is sound. Choosing not to be a pet owner is a choice humans can make. I've made the choice to be a responsible owner instead. And I do my best to see them as they are, not as human children or in other anthropomorphized ways.
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:27 PM
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ColorsWolf ColorsWolf is offline
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I reject all of your points, "euthanasia", "slaves", "they like it"?~

If you bring any of your colonial attitudes with intent to practice these ideals of your's towards my "family", it won't be pretty for ANY of you.~

No Human can ever speak for a non-Human for Humans truly do not know the point of view of a non-Human due to inadequate communication.~

All of your points on the "thinking" of non-Human is based upon guesses at best.~

The thing is we don't really know any thing at all about how the lives of other species outside of our own work in accordance with that species' own perspective on it.~

We don't know if other species actually practice or even comprehend 'morality' as those in the Human species seem to do, or if they do but they decided to 'discard it' since it's subjectivity is far too unreliable to use as a way of thinking.~

We have no idea about the way that other species 'think' or how their lives 'work' in 'their' point of view and so we only guess at the best what is really going on with them.~

This does not make us 'higher' than them in any sort of 'non-subjective' way, this does not 'make their behavior justifiable in a non-subjective' way, this does not 'make our Human behavior justifiable in any non-subjective way', and this does not 'make us any kind of 'experts' or 'professionals' on them in a way that is not subjective or relative to our own species'.~

The point is we truly don't know and any claim made otherwise of one by our own species is simply pure arrogance, narcissism, ignorance, and foolishness.~

The problem is most Humans are willing to raise many non-Humans, but it seems most Humans also seem to "forget" the most basic of all biological functions: every thing grows up.~

Many Humans are selfish and will try to keep their 'pets' 'children' forever.~

The sad thing is they often succeed and they retard the mental growth of the non-Human.~

There's no excuse for it, every creature will naturally become an adult and to intentionally treat them as "children", never teaching them how to live on their own, you are purposely setting them up to fail, and there is nothing more cruel or sicking than that: a selfish horrible parent who twists love and uses it as a weapon until it is no longer love, just possessiveness.~

So we either do the best that we can learn how to do, we don't try to raise children at all, or we accept the reality of what we are doing to other living creatures whether or not you can find some reason to justify it to yourself is irrelevant.~
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Love yourself, you are beautiful!~ ^_^

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Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~


Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-10-2013 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:23 PM
InfinitePossibility InfinitePossibility is offline
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Default On non-human companions

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Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
If you bring any of your colonial attitudes with intent to practice these ideals of your's towards my "family", it won't be pretty for ANY of you.~
Why the aggression? Nobody has suggested that they are going anywhere near your family.
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:46 PM
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If you bring any of your colonial attitudes with intent to practice these ideals of your's towards my "family", it won't be pretty for ANY of you.~
Wow. Really?
I don't plan on "retarding the growth" of your "family" - this is an exchange of ideas, not a smackdown.

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Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
We have no idea about the way that other species 'think' or how their lives 'work' in 'their' point of view and so we only guess at the best what is really going on with them.~

This does not make us 'higher' than them in any sort of 'non-subjective' way, this does not 'make their behavior justifiable in a non-subjective' way, this does not 'make our Human behavior justifiable in any non-subjective way', and this does not 'make us any kind of 'experts' or 'professionals' on them in a way that is not subjective or relative to our own species'.~

The point is we truly don't know and any claim made otherwise of one by our own species is simply pure arrogance, narcissism, ignorance, and foolishness.~
We know what we observe, however. No, I can't ascribe motive to it, but it sure seems that my cats enjoy the companionship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
Many Humans are selfish and will try to keep their 'pets' 'children' forever.~

The sad thing is they often succeed and they retard the mental growth of the non-Human.~

There's no excuse for it, every creature will naturally become an adult and to intentionally treat them as "children", never teaching them how to live on their own, you are purposely setting them up to fail, and there is nothing more cruel or sicking than that
And, pray tell, how do I teach a domesticated cat to live in the wild on its own? Especially when I adopted mine at (their) ages 10 and 8? Perhaps the system "failed" these animals a while ago, but I don't believe I'm doing my cats a disservice by adopting them as "seniors" and letting them live in a loving home.
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Dramatis personae:
Me: Mono. Divorced, two kids (DanceGirl, 13; and PokéGirl, 10), two cats, one house, many projects.
Chops: My partner. Poly. In relationships with me, Xena, and Noa.
Xena: Poly. In relationships with Chops and Noa, and dating others.
Noa: Married, Poly. In relationships with Chops and Xena (individually).

Blog thread: A Mono's Journey Into Poly-Land (or, "Aw hell, there's no road map?!")
Slightly more polished blog with a mono/poly focus: From Baltic to Boardwalk
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