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  #41  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Purpurea View Post
The funny thing with karma is, that often things are the complete opposite of what we commonly think they are. It's interesting how much everyone stresses the cheating part of this story. That's the commonly accepted view, and how most people would react. I would have said the same things not too long ago. In my opinion now though, in terms of karma (truth, enlightment, or whatever you want to call it), it was loveless of her to ask him to become her boyfriend when she felt she couldn't handle his relationship with me. And it was loveless of him to accept it. The cheating was just the natural consequence of this behavior, something that made the contradiction visible, if you want to put it that way. Without the cheating, it would be exactly the same lie, just covered a little better.
I have thought about this line for a few days now as it relates to Karma... so, in essence, you are giving her the Karma you think she deserves? You feel as if she created her own consequence by asking him to be monogamous? If I understand correctly, she asked him to be monogamous to her, even though she knew that you were in his life. She made a request to have her needs met for fidility and HE agreed. He told her that he would do this for her, because he loved her and didn't want to lose her... he said he loves you too, but was willing to jepordize that by agreeing to her request. He then decided that it was okay to have sex with you... and you decided this too (because after all, what does it have to do with you), because he thought her request was not something he could agree to after all.

This was the moment it all changed I think. HE decided to disrespect her and you and himself at that moment no? He made a mockery of his love for all of you in that moment to me. 1. because he didn't stop right there and say, "you know, I want to show her respect and honour by stopping here and renegotiating the agreement we have. I love you too much it seems to be able to agree to meet her needs on this." 2. because he showed you in that moment that he is not able to control his hormones and cock enough to hold off from having sex with people long enough to think rationally. He basically let you know in that moment that this is the future you and he would have... if you are okay with him sleeping with whomever without telling you then that's fine... I just wonder if you had talked about it, discussed your needs and his and come to the agreement that he could be a free sexing man if he were with you. 3. He made a mockery of his own self love by seemingly shrugging it off as nothing. He has caused himself some pain it seems by how he is acting now. He has some feelings about how he behaved and the choices he made and it seems that it is possible that he has damaged the idea of who he thought he was.

Who's Karma is coming around here? A moment of getting back at someone for having feelings and needs and requesting them... which is what was the healthiest part of this interaction... is not Karma coming around, it's just plain hurtful, calculating, manipulative of peoples fragile position in this arrangement and well, not the best idea in the long run...

I know we have been over this... but in terms of my own journey with this kind of thing,,, this thread has been helpful to me in my own life. A lot resonates with me on many levels in my own journey. Thank you for that.... I realize you are hurting... again, I am sorry for that... but because others read these threads I thought it useful to write this as it might help others make decisions that are more in keeping with possible GOOD Karma.
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Last edited by redpepper; 02-16-2011 at 11:42 PM.
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  #42  
Old 02-17-2011, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Speaking as one who has not read ALL of the posts surrounding this, but some of the recent ones here, I agree with MFFR. And I'd bail out of this situation immediately!

You deserve better -- whether you know that or not.
Of course, I deserve someone who treats me with 100% love. But does this situation or he keep me from finding someone else? Do I keep myself from it? In all cases: No. So why should I leave? Because it hurts? Well, as I said before, I'm the only one who is responsible for how I feel. If I left the situation, I would have to watch out not to end up in similar situations again. Or if I did, I would feel the same hurt again. In terms of inner growing, staying and overcoming my hurt is definitely the best thing to do.

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[edit]: You just said that you believe he loves you. But I think you are mistaken. If he genuinely loved you he'd treat you much, much better than he does.
I'm sure he loves me as much as he can. I'm sure everyone loves as much as they can, and that the love they give to others represents exactly the amout of love they give to themselves. It is sad that he doesn't love himself more, but who am I to judge? How much to I love myself? How often have I treated myself badly? We all make mistakes, there's no point in punishing him for it, as it would mean, I would punish myself too if I made a mistake.
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  #43  
Old 02-17-2011, 11:57 AM
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@redpepper:
No, I'm not giving anyone karma, karma just is. It sounds a little as if you think I would try to punish her. I wouldn't do that, it would be bad karma. I think anyone deserves just the best.

She asked him to be monogamous, he agreed. He had sex with me anyway, but thinks it was a mistake and regrets it. I don't think it was a mistake because having sex has nothing to do with her. It was a mistake to agree to her request. It is a mistake that he hasn't told her yet that we had sex.

I would be fine with him having sex with others without telling me. I wouldn't be fine with him not using protection and therefore risking my health. Physical harm is my limit, there's nothing I can do to get rid of the dependence to my body. I can get rid of being dependent on my own feelings though. I wouldn't stop seeing him though, but I would stop having sex with him.

Whenever you do something that helps you keep up a false belief, it is an act of self-hate, or self-denial, and therefore bad karma. So all bad karma behavior in a list.
1. She asking him to be monogamous. False belief: If he has sex with others, he will leave me. I can't stand him leaving me.
2. He agreed. False belief: I can't stand her leaving me.
3. He not telling her that he had sex with me before she comes. False belief: I need to make sure to keep her. I can't stand her leaving me.
4. Me leaving/punishing him (in case I did). False belief: I can't stand being number 2, or him leaving me.
(What false belief does he keep up when he has sex with me?)

The hurt we feel comes from all those false beliefs. The truth is though: Of course, we can stand others leaving us. Think of that the only dependence we have is our physical limits. Our lives aren't threatened by someone leaving us. Our lives are though threatened by hanging on to false beliefs. Because self denial requires a lot of energy to be maintained, and in the long run this can potentially make us physically ill and even kill us! The hurt we feel, when we decide to overcome our false beliefs, and stay in the situation without fighting it, will be intense but only temporary. Read through how to overcome anxiety disorders. It's a good example. In any situation that makes you feel bad, you have three options: Avoid or fight the situation, or let go of your negative feelings. The first two ones are only temporary solutions, that will have enormous costs in the long run. Letting go is hard in the beginning, but will give you energy and freedom in the long run. There is no reason to hang on to avoiding or fighting. Anyone has the ability to let go. So there is really no need to keep up false beliefs by others meeting them.

Not the "cheating" is the mistake. The mistake is the philosophy that makes you think it's a mistake.

Last edited by Purpurea; 02-17-2011 at 12:13 PM.
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  #44  
Old 03-09-2011, 09:19 PM
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It's been a while since I wrote last. I visited him again and we didn't have sex this time. Still I'm not sure if she could handle seeing us kiss and cuddle all the time. I think he and her might have different definitions of "no sex", and that they should really talk about it. We also talked again about our relationship. The results are that he said that I'm just as important as she is. I still believe him. He doesn't see that he treats me as secondary though, when he gives up sex with me because she doesn't like it.

He said that in fact he doesn't know what he really wants, as he never really had a closer relationship with someone. The only thing he knows is that he wants her close, and me too. And he wants to find out what he wants by trying how it feels for him being her boyfriend and being "just" friends with me. He also said that he is well aware that the main reason for people becoming monogamous couples is jealousy. And he also wants all of us living together in a house or apartment one day. And he asked me to give him time to find out what he really wants and just see what happens.

I understand him. This is not a common thing to happen. There is no role model in our society for this situation. Usually people actually choose one person over another. However, to me all he says sounds like he might be ready for poly one day, but I'm not counting on it And I have no idea how she would be able to deal with it. She doesn't seem to be even close to poly. My main focus is on going on learning to let go of my own negative feelings concerning this situation and take good care of myself. I seriously hope that he will not change his mind before I learnt to truly come to terms with the situation the way it is now.

We'll see what happens in May anyway, when he will tell her about the cheating. Usually monogamous people either leave or ask their partner to stay away from the person he cheated with. It's going to be very interesting

Last edited by Purpurea; 03-09-2011 at 09:48 PM.
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  #45  
Old 03-10-2011, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Who's Karma is coming around here? A moment of getting back at someone for having feelings and needs and requesting them... which is what was the healthiest part of this interaction... is not Karma coming around, it's just plain hurtful, calculating, manipulative of peoples fragile position in this arrangement and well, not the best idea in the long run...
I think we should be clear about who is being "hurtful, calculating, manipulative of people's fragile position in this arrangement".

I simply cannot see that Purpurea is manipulating anyone: She's the most clear-minded of the three, she's honest to him AND to herself. You might accuse her of being dishonest to the other woman, but if my memory serves - without wading again through all that's been written on this thread - she's never met this woman. Is it her responsibility to tell her? Is it her responsibility to end (or put limits on) a relationship... to play the game by the other woman's rules?

Let's look at motivations / philosophies (as I understand them):
Purpurea is a disciple of polyamory - albeit a relative newbie to the term and the groundrules [as am I, as well] - who believes (and feels) that putting limits on Love is a bad thing. (I think that it's become clear that she's willing to put limits on sex in certain circumstances: "I wouldn't be fine with him not using protection and therefore risking my health. Physical harm is my limit, there's nothing I can do to get rid of the dependence to my body. I can get rid of being dependent on my own feelings though. I wouldn't stop seeing him though, but I would stop having sex with him.") But why limit our capacity to love (including sharing sexual love) because society - or, in this case, one member of it - says that that's a no-no? She's insisted that her friend comes clean with the other woman - she's just allowing him to set the timetable.
The Other Woman is jealous. This is a frailty, but it's a human one and very widespread. Very few of us weren't brought up to believe that jealousy is an indication of true love. I can't blame her. (Though wouldn't it be nice if she got over her jealousy?)
The Man wants to have his cake and eat it too. Also a very human trait. But in order to achieve this, he's willing to lie to one woman and treat another woman as second-best. And supposedly these are both women that he loves. He seems to me to be the closest we've got here to the villain of the story... but he's oh, so typical. I pity him. And I wonder if he's really worthy of either of the women - especially of Purpurea.

If anyone's creating bad karma here, it's The Man. And several people have advised Purpurea to drop him and find someone who loves her openly and fully.

But if feelings are decided by common sense, logic, and "rightness"... it's news to me. We love whom we love: faults, frailties, inconsistencies and all. And as Purpurea has written, there is much in their relationship that is positive and beautiful.
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  #46  
Old 03-10-2011, 07:23 PM
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@Mr.- I agree. The man is not thinking things through and being selfish. All I was saying is that I would not chose to sleep with a man that is cheating. It is all very well to believe that the other woman is being selfish also, but she has had no chance to change that or debate that because she is being lied to. I think it sounds like she asked for a mono relationship and she think she has that. How is she to blame if she is being decieved? P is part of that deception because she chose to be. She can justify it all she wants and obviously is fine with that. I'm not about to argue about it. I debated that, but have come to the conclusion that she simply has a different idea about what she feels comfortable with than I. *shrug* that's it reallly. If her conscience is clear, who am I to debate that. I am not her. All I wanted to do is point out that there is a different way of looking at it. I have done that and nothing more to say at this point.
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:15 PM
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All I was saying is that I would not chose to sleep with a man that is cheating. It is all very well to believe that the other woman is being selfish also, but she has had no chance to change that or debate that because she is being lied to. I think it sounds like she asked for a mono relationship and she think she has that. How is she to blame if she is being decieved? P is part of that deception because she chose to be.
1) As someone who has twice in my life chosen to sleep with a woman who was cheating on her husband (once I hardly knew the man: the other time, he was a good friend; BOTH times decades ago), this is not something I ever want to repeat.

2) Aside from those 2 cases, I have several times found myself a catalyst in a break-up. No sex involved, but a rapport with a woman that a jealous husband or boyfriend got even more jealous about. I have been told by some people that this, too, was unethical on my part. My stand is that nobody belongs to anybody else, and that if somebody wants to talk to me until 3 in the morning while her boyfriend has long ago gone to their joint bed, I'm not about to tell her: "Your place is by his side."

3) I hope that I haven't given the impression that I fault the other woman. She is a victim (of her / our upbringing that insists on monogamy as the only valid option; as well as of a man who says that he loves her and that has agreed to be "faithful" and yet isn't).

4) I think that we're agreed that the man is the one most to blame here. He is a weakling whose weakness is causing one woman to suffer (although I believe that Purpurea is handling it pretty well, all things considered) and would cause the other woman to suffer even more if only she knew what was going on.

5) If he were to say (to himself and to Purpurea): "I'm sorry, but I can't accept the idea of monogamy. However, I love this other woman and neither want to hurt her nor to lose her. Therefore, I'm keeping our relationship a secret", I think that I might have a bit more respect for him. But he's saying that he's been won over to monogamy... but a monogamy where he's allowed to cheat. This is really old hat! It's been going on ever since monogamy became the norm. "There are certain rules, but I am allowed to ignore them."

6) However (as one who has cheated), who am I to point the finger?!

7) "P is part of that deception because she chose to be." As I see it, P has chosen to love a man, with all his faults and weaknesses. She has insisted (? - at least strongly urged) that he come clean with the other woman.

8) Should she say: "I refuse to love you because you're a coward and a cheat"? I'm assuming that you'd agree that she shouldn't. Should she say: "I refuse to sleep with you (even though we love each other deeply and are sexually attracted to each other) unless your girlfriend agrees to it"? My guess is that you would say yes and I would say not necessarily. Should she say: "I refuse to sleep with you if you consider sleeping with me as some kind of moral backsliding, something to feel guilty and dirty about"? HERE is where I would answer yes (if it were me). But it isn't me...
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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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  #48  
Old 03-10-2011, 08:40 PM
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@Mr.- #8- If I were her I would love him extra hard, listen, suggest what I think he should do ie. Be honest with me and her and tell him that out of repect to her, him and most if all myself, I will wait to have sex until it reflected a process of consideration and respect for where everyone is. In that way I would feel my integrity is intact.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:23 PM
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@Mr.- #8- If I were her I would love him extra hard, listen, suggest what I think he should do ie. Be honest with me and her and tell him that out of repect to her, him and most if all myself, I will wait to have sex until it reflected a process of consideration and respect for where everyone is. In that way I would feel my integrity is intact.
Fair enough and well said. In principle I agree with you... possibly 100%. (And as someone who values the emotional over the sexual, for me, personally, it wouldn't be too difficult to hold off on the sex until there was justice, fairness, and honesty all 'round.) Ah, but love's a sticky business!
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If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
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Old 03-11-2011, 12:20 AM
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Ah, but love's a sticky business!
Yes it is, sometimes acting with integrity is easier said than done. I would be the first to admit that.... no one is perfect.
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