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  #21  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by london View Post
From Page 2
I'm still on Page 1. Could you refer to posts rather than pages? Everyone can set their own "posts per page" and mine is apparently different from yours.
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  #22  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:55 AM
london london is offline
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I was referring to the OP posts only. I just expected some sort of update on the next page that would change what I said in my first post.
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  #23  
Old 11-17-2013, 08:59 AM
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Actually...this is not the best example of that we all make individual decitions. Fluent bonding boundries is THE example of how what another person do, directly affect YOU
Boundary: I want to be told if you're having unprotected sex with other people. I will choose to use condoms with you if I believe my sexual health is at risk.

Voluntary agreement: We both acknowledge that having unprotected sex with other people is potentially risky. In our discussions together, we have reached a mutual decision that neither of us is going to do that. If we become close to someone and wish to revisit the issue, we will have another discussion and come to a new agreement.

Coerced agreement: You having unprotected sex with other people freaks me out. If you don't promise not to do it, I'm leaving you / I won't have sex with you.

Rule: You having unprotected sex with other people freaks me out, so don't do it because I said so.

It can be a fine line between respecting your boundaries and being coercive, and sometimes that line bleeds. For example, you might not want anything at all to do with unprotected sex. In that case, respecting your own boundary might require you to stop having sex with someone who refuses to use condoms with their other partners. This might push your partner to agree to using condoms with other people as the lesser of two evils. It's still coercion, but as a side-effect rather than intent.
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The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."
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  #24  
Old 11-17-2013, 09:28 AM
london london is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Boundary: I want to be told if you're having unprotected sex with other people. I will choose to use condoms with you if I believe my sexual health is at risk.

Voluntary agreement: We both acknowledge that having unprotected sex with other people is potentially risky. In our discussions together, we have reached a mutual decision that neither of us is going to do that. If we become close to someone and wish to revisit the issue, we will have another discussion and come to a new agreement.

Coerced agreement: You having unprotected sex with other people freaks me out. If you don't promise not to do it, I'm leaving you / I won't have sex with you.

Rule: You having unprotected sex with other people freaks me out, so don't do it because I said so.

It can be a fine line between respecting your boundaries and being coercive, and sometimes that line bleeds. For example, you might not want anything at all to do with unprotected sex. In that case, respecting your own boundary might require you to stop having sex with someone who refuses to use condoms with their other partners. This might push your partner to agree to using condoms with other people as the lesser of two evils. It's still coercion, but as a side-effect rather than intent.
I totally agree that even in the most reasonable form of enforcing your own boundaries you are inadvertently coercing the other person. But, the only reason that the element of coercion exists is because you have an incentive. That incentive might be unprotected sex or staying in a relationship or something else but it's viewed as something beneficial to that person, by that person. If you've ensured that your boundary is reasonable and doesnt seek to impede on other people's relationships like "I wish to be told about any unprotected sex. I may choose to use condoms if my health is at risk", it's up to the other person to decide who they want to have unprotected sex with.

Really, they haven't been coerced at all, they've been given an informed choice. Once we accept that everyone has the right to personal boundaries, the coercion only exists if they want to have unprotected sex with you more than they do the other person.
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  #25  
Old 11-17-2013, 10:35 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default this is one of those topics where there will be no agreement

and people who don't agreement on fundamental principles of what type of relationships you want in your life, may not work out.

In my opinion viewing yourself as controlling because you have different opinions on what you want from your relationships, is manipulative.

Problems like these, are a major reason why poly, or any form of non-monogamy doesn't work.

Find a posts by GalaGirl, as she does an excellent job explaining poly principles in a coherent, easily understood way. She sometimes refers to hard and soft boundaries. A boundary can just as easily be referred to as a rule, agreements, or whatever makes sense to you.

Personally I would be weary of any situation you can describe, be in, or hypothetically imagine, wherein your opinion changes drastically by nothing more than substituting different words

in other words semantics

If using different terminology makes the same situation go from unacceptable to suddenly OK, I hope you fully trust the person who just used words in order to manipulate you views

When speaking of the people you choose to share your life with, you don't need any excuses, you needn't worry about how others view your decisions so long as you are speaking of relationships with fully knowledgeable, consenting adults.

You can substitute any word for any adjective or noun you want, and it is OK, so long as you accept a person's decision to reject your offer of love or in other words just because you are willing to share your life with specific people, doesn't mean they will desire to share their life with you.

I do strongly feel, that this is by far the area in each of Our lives, as in more one, as for many the number of leases in this House is definitely plural, However I won't get into that here, except to say that I would not consider any reason for who you choose to offer your love AND ALSO any reason you choose to accept or reject Love (in the form of sharing lives) I would not describe your preferences and something you need to justify, so I have not yet found an example that could be labelled wrongful discrimination

In fact I would encourage you to be extremely discriminant with who your share your life with, esp who you will "leave your mother and father" for to choose who you will become as newly created lease for your chosen life together.

partnering up, staring families, choosing who YOU will become US with and whoever you all are when you describe yourselves as WE, I would advise you get to know those people first, because if you can know your core values, your Hard boundaries of who you are wiling to BE, you will be able to much better gauge the direction you lives will go, including all of life's changes that will come.

All changes and new viewpoints are *almost* impossible to see, but when you have different core beliefs compared to another person, you might be doing yourself a favor just being friends, or maybe even acquaintances, possibly neighbors

Just make sure you know the difference between next door, esp in regards to whether or not that means the next house over, the next county, next country and for shit sure world (which could also mean Family (capital F) as in hierarchy of "names" like Genus)

Be weary of who you let influence you choices, unless you are sure you wish to accompany them in the direction they are choosing to go

because they may not fully comprehend anything other than what I would consider a very, very, very short sighted, flawed viewpoint on what constitutes Love, Life, Lives, Genetics, Lies, Truth, and Eternity

all of which you Have many choices to make as to how far you see, how much you see, and whether or not what you are viewing Is real, and how much will be revealed as not what you thought it would be

I firmly believe your ability to be honest, enables you to see the truth more clearly, and the Truth is the Key, to Love and recognizing what your life can truly be and who you honestly desire to become

be weary of who you allow to direct or mold your truth
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  #26  
Old 11-17-2013, 11:44 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
Problems like these, are a major reason why poly, or any form of non-monogamy doesn't work.
Poly works just fine, thank you very much. Perhaps you've failed at all your own attempts with it, but don't project your own failures onto the paradigm as a whole.

Quote:
Personally I would be weary of any situation you can describe, be in, or hypothetically imagine, wherein your opinion changes drastically by nothing more than substituting different words in other words semantics
Concepts first, words second, semantics nada. I don't pick a word and then choose how to behave according to it. I pick a behaviour and then choose how to describe it.

It's not semantics to say there's a fundamental difference between "This is about me, it's something I need regarding how people treat me" and "This is about you, and how you are supposed to behave when I'm not around."

Quote:
If using different terminology makes the same situation go from unacceptable to suddenly OK, I hope you fully trust the person who just used words in order to manipulate you views
You've got it backwards. The situation going from unacceptable to suddenly OK is based upon whether you're controlling the behaviour of other people when they're not around you, versus controlling your own behaviour in response to how people treat you personally.

Depending on whose behaviour you're controlling, there are different words to describe it.
  • Controlling your own behaviour: I call it boundaries.
  • Controlling your partner's behaviour: I call it manipulation and/or rules.
  • You and your partner each controlling your own behaviours in a compatible way: I call it agreements.

My life coach / therapist makes a really big deal about identifying how much words affect the way we understand our situations. I trust her more than you, because you're just some stranger on the internet, and she's actually helped me personally.

She emphasizes the difference between phrases like "I think" and "I feel" and "I perceive." It might just seem like bullshit semantics to you, but identifying your feelings (sad, happy, mad, afraid) is separate from identifying the cause (your own perceptions of people's intentions), which is separate again from your thoughts (the narratives or stories we tell ourselves when we're going over these interactions in our heads)... Identifying these differences helps put everything in context. It helps you understand what parts of the interaction you're responsible for. If you can identify something as a perception, then you can clarify whether that was their intent. You can sit down and vocalize the story explicitly and see if it sounds rational. You can then own your feelings and separate them from the perception and the story.

I haven't had to speak to her about boundaries and rules, but it's the same thing. Distinguishing between boundaries (which are about you and how you want to be treated) and rules (which are about other people and how you want them to behave whether or not you're around) and agreements (which are about two people coming together with common goals) helps to clarify whether or not your expectations are reasonable.

If you're able to keep those concepts straight without assigning labels to them, then good for you. But I'm not alone in finding that distinguishing between boundaries, rules, and agreements helps clarify my rights and responsibilities.

You have the right to have boundaries (how you want to be treated). Your partners have a responsibility to respect your boundaries. You have a right to enforce your boundaries if they don't respect them.

You do not have the right to make rules for your partners' behaviour. You have a responsibility to respect your partners' autonomy. You don't have the right to tell your husband's girlfriend how she has to treat him.

You have the right to ask your partner to agree to things. They have the right not to agree. You have the responsibility to respect their refusal. You do not have the right to deliberately and manipulatively coerce them into agreeing under the threat of something terrible.

It's not semantics. They're very different concepts. If you can't understand the difference between those concepts, then we can't communicate about this further.
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Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."
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  #27  
Old 11-17-2013, 12:18 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default Are one of the major reason why poly doesn't work with some people

but will with others

as in difference in opinions of what is acceptable behavior, isn't likely to work,

or

Problems like these, are a major reason why monogamy, poly, or any form of any intimate relationship doesn't work.

sorry about that, for some reason my posts don't always show up the same from when I hit post and things get jumbled in the ether, but I never can tell when it's just a case of me pissing off a moderator, this one was me not being clear

I am not saying anybody has a right to tell anybody what they can and can't do, I was advocated that they figure these things out before they get involved with someone, as it creates a lot of turmoil to find out later that someone elses idea of love and respect doesn't jive with your own.

The only responsible thing to do is tell your partner what you can live with and what you cannot, some people call that a veto, you can call it whatever you want, whether you call breaking up with a person due to irreconcilable differences deciding to break up, or a veto which you telling me I don't have the right to do doesn't matter to me.

You can call that attempting to own another person or anything you want, but to be honest, I would never own another person, I would also never tell a person they could not be owned by another. I realize this doesn't jive with french proprietary poly, and frankly I am not one iota upset about that

about the semantics

when a situation occurs, and you feel it doesn't align with your core beliefs, and the only thing that changes is the words someone uses to describe it, results in you accepting something you previously did not, it is likely you are being manipulated.

I said if that happens, you had better trust the person, because yes, if you are a bigot, I would hope your core values were open to some manipulation, I am not likely to accept it for someone I don't trust.

and now we are just getting into semantics, and I already am well aware that we have strong disagreements. I am not trying convince you of anything, and I would trust anyone you feel their advice works for you, my advice was not directed nor suggested as something that I thought you should try

most of what you claimed I said or implied -- with the exception of my typo saying poly doesn't work -- was not what wrote

I am not advocating anyone try to control another person, I am saying you should figure these things out before you get involved. Because nobody should feel like they have to accept anybody elses standards for a relationship

if you have trouble using a "veto" as manipulation, which it can certainly be, than there is a problem. It can also just mean breaking up with someone because you are not OK with how they behave when they aren't around you.

It is possible that the reason we are butting heads, is because I am NOT what has been termed "POLY" I have major discrepancies with what "polys" considerable acceptable behavior.

but I come back here because I often think my differences are not with the majority, but only the most vocal ones

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 11-17-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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  #28  
Old 11-17-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Norwegianpoly View Post
Actually...this is not the best example of that we all make individual decitions. Fluent bonding boundries is THE example of how what another person do, directly affect YOU (and others in the chain), hence ultimately the choices made a joint enterprise. If your fluent bonding partner should fuck someone else without protection (and not telling) and bring home STD's, you can get them, even HIV. They can make someone pregnant, bringing a child into your life. The Bible talks about being one flesh. As fluent-bondedness go, that is close to the medical truth...
Yes it is. When Murf and I's relationship changed I bluntly told Butch hey Murf and I are moving in a long term committed relationship. We are going to be fluid bonded. I allowed Butch to do what he felt he needed to do for himself.

There is no risk of STD from Murf he is mono and was fully tested . Butch and I had been our only partners since 2001. I have been tested randomly over the years. Butch hasn't had any other sexual partners in that time either. I placed the boundary upon myself to keep my guys informed when I make a decision that will effect them. If Butch finds himself a partner he would like to have a sexual relationship with I hope he would allow me to make decisions for myself regarding my sexual health. Could he keep me in the dark yes but he could just as easily do so if we were monogamous and he cheated on me. Actually right now due to my anaphylactic allergy to the nightshade family I can not have a sexual relationship with Butch due to his tobacco use. I end up very ill due to exposure from his skin through the thin and sensitive skin of the genital area. He will not quit and I have had to make a decision about my health. It sucks ass but my boundary is avoiding a trip to the hospital.

Currently my situation is polyfi and I respect my partners. So they are both kept a breast of any changes that come along.
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Murf my monogamous second husband has been with me since May of 2012.
In a V relationship with an average 60/40 split of time. Only due to Murf's and Butch's crappy work schedules.
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  #29  
Old 11-17-2013, 03:13 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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weary-- tired
leery-- cautious or wary
wary-- feeling or showing caution

I agree with london where she said you definitely have sexual aversion issues that you need therapy to work through. I am sorry you have lived with many bad examples of unhealthy sexual behavior. But it is futile to avoid your own issues around sex by attempting to control the sexual behaviors of others.

If your aversion to sex causes you to hardly ever have any, which means your husband hardly ever did, til now with his gf, I feel he has found a solution that works for him. If he wants to further explore his own sexuality with his gf by going to kink/play parties, that is his choice.

(Making the distinction between BDSM and sex is a very grey area, in my opinion. I know some people can draw a strong line between the 2, but I dunno. If I've got some hot babe in a garter belt and fuck me heels writhing under my whip, I am going to get turned on and hope she will let me have sex with her.)
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  #30  
Old 11-17-2013, 06:36 PM
bofish bofish is offline
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Default Therapy

I am in therapy and working on it.

Unfortunately, I disagree with most of you. My husband and I live together and are raising a family. I feel totally within my rights to ASK him not to do certain behaviors that I think are unhealthy and make me feel emotionally threatened. You saw only behaviours that DIRECTLY affect me are viable to ask - everything else is controling. But this DOES EFFECT me. It makes me not want to be close to him and not want to have sex with him. There are many behaviors we ask partners not to do - for example buy the 4$ cheese versus the 8$...is that controlling.

I am confused because on another post I saw many people who won'y allow their primary to date someone until the meet them. THAT stirkes me as much more controlling. COME on! Cut me some slack. How many people on here agree that their partner can date whoever they want and ask for no boundaries. My boundaries seem A LOT less extreme. We are not required to "OK" someone. I didn't even meet husband's GF untl they had been dating 4-5 month. Husband rarely meets any of my dates and only met two long-term boyfriends once or twice.

I think part of my issue is that I really want to be fair and empathetic to the folks in my life and emotions often contradict that. I have to allow myself to feel the way I feel and not beat myself up.

Also, people here *and his girlfriend* do not ackowledge that sex parties are WAY WAY outside of the boundaries of average society. For a person who is sexually conservative, I am already way way outside of the average. Agreeing with sex parites seems extreme. For example. OF us three, I am the only one who is out to EVERYONE, my parents, work, friends - neither GF nor husbdan are out than to a few trust friends -certainly not family. If being poly isn't something they can even share with eversyone - but SHe wants sex parties to be a big part of her life (and yet another secret).

Husband says he doesn't want to go to them because he has erection issues and feels insecure.

Anyway, finally the GF and I spoke./ A lot (of course) has to do with misconnunication. She feels that our closeness is hard for her. I feel that we are barely aquainces. This is because I have very intense long term daily relationships where we discuss everything. She says her relationships are much more distant and focus on chit-chat. She sees most of her friends at these sex parties and my husband is her FIRST real relationship - she is in her 40s. I am not trying to be judgemental - rather explain how we are so very difference. My habit would be to go to a friends and talk for two hours about childrearing or rape ot whatever. GF relates to people through sex parties and has numberous friends that she rarely sees outside of that...I just can't view this as healthy.

I am writing this because she isn't going a way and I feel I have to relate to someone whose lifestyle I don't relate to at all.
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