Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Fireplace

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 11-16-2013, 08:27 AM
kdt26417's Avatar
kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
Official Greeter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Yelm, Washington
Posts: 5,891
Default

Re (from LovingRadiance):
Quote:
"I was actually in completely agreement with you."
Cool beans. Grant amount of freedom that's appropriate for the person (human or non) in question. Our pets don't exactly have outdoor freedom, but they do have the run of the house. Just a bit more freedom, to go along with their freedom from 99% of all streets-and-forests dangers.

You have to try to account for what your pet's heart and mind can endure. Wolves and tigers are strong-hearted and adult-minded. Whatever my personal opinions about wildlife and non-intervention by humans, I can at least agree that a wolf and a tiger are far better suited for total independence than a dog or a housecat.

I find that with pets, lots can depend on whether they live in the city or the country. But there are always risks to be weighed, and the importance is tantamount that they have the freedom to return home if/when they want. So many indoor-only pets would be deprived of that freedom once they were outside on their own. They need a safe way to roam, and a safe way to return.

Humans do mature more than your typical pet animal, and as they age, they become increasingly able to handle independence -- within the infrastructure of whichever human world/culture they live in. And by genetic design, human parents are the best-suited candidates for guiding human children from childhood into adulthood. Humans *don't* have the needed traits to allow them to train cats, dogs, wolves, tigers, or any other kind of non-human person. All a human can train a non-human to do is to perform human-oriented tasks and tricks. Nothing however, that would relate to that non-human's lone survival on the streets and in the woods.

Re (also from LovingRadiance):
Quote:
"kdt -- *Now* I understand how you manage to continue responding! Because you *do* have the time."
Uh yeah, that's right. Human pet right here, in the flesh, at your service. How may I help you today?

Having said that, this thread and the "Shame re: body parts; self-hatred" thread have been sucking up *all* of my time. I get further and further and further behind on everything else. I kind of don't like it (yet I apparently do like it since I let it keep me captive). Other people on other threads may need my attention too, and they're not getting it. Makes me feel like quite a Polyamory.com failure (and don't even get me started on stuff like facebook which is neglected to the neglected power). Not to mention the emotional beatings I often take on these two threads. I'm trying to watch real carefully to see when it's the right time for me to stop talking to ColorsWolf (or Dirtclustit). As I said on the "Body Parts" thread, I do have some responsibility to look after my own emotional well-being. I do need boundaries. Somewhere.

Anyways. Don't be sorry. I appreciate "pet life" as much as any "standard pet," and am pretty darn dependent on my "masters" if not 100% dependent. I suppose if thrown out on the street I'd find some way to survive ... probably by wending my way to Vashon Island in Washington and becoming the human pet of my older brother and his wife. Just would have to survive the journey somehow. No small feat there ...
__________________
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 11-16-2013, 06:45 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Middle of Oregon
Posts: 431
Default Your Response is exactly why I Responded

and exactly why I did they way I did. I did not in any way threaten you, Kevin, or whomever had been posting as if they were you. I don't understand most of the coded terms in your words, even though I have been, in the past, a Ward Clerk, but I sense more hostility in your words than anybody here, the only exception being those who were supposedly banned, yet come to find it was only one of their profiles.

Perhaps you have trouble understanding my non-coded words because you have no respect for truth, or not enough, to recognize the truth in my words.

From your words posted in response to ColorsWolf, you continuously outright lie, or if you prefer intentionally mask your hostility which comes across as even more threatening, because of this, I will assume that you have absolutely no authority because if you did your behavior indicates you would abuse it.

I understand how wrongfully afflicted people can be who are associated with any form of non-traditional relationships, I also have first hand experience with being wrongfully and excessively afflicted by alternative online and real life communities, and the way I deal with abuse and terrorism is exactly the same way, as they both thrive in a very misleading, and distorted sense of reality.

All of the ability to terrorize and abuse is damn near removed when the truth can be distinguished from lies. Truth recognizes no authority other than those who recognize IT, and who fully respect it, which means to live responsibly, which means to always do the next right thing, which if nothing else means to begin the practice of honesty

So you either must either state your grievances -- as I fully agree that any character who is here with malice intended (which can also include simply intimidation), such as those who do not refrain from afflicting others who do harm -- so that they can be dealt with, because I do not tolerate vigilantism, and truthfully have little tolerance for those who use code to slight, threaten, or even marginalize anyone or anything.

And if you have none, please keep your tacitly implied and embarrassingly hypocritical alter-ego in check, as it isn't worth cashing
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 11-16-2013, 08:33 PM
SchrodingersCat's Avatar
SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 2,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
But I thought I would ask a cat related question. Tiny Cat is not letting me sleep as much as I need to sleep. I am so tired and frustrated I've mulled over if I need to find her another home.

I am so frustrated. Ideas?
I wish I had a dime for every time I was woken up by Olympic Sprints through the bedroom, and a nickel for every time Pinky woke me up by poking me in the boobs. She's very deliberate when she wants me up. She walks on me very slowly and pointedly until I either get the message or blow in her face, which she hates.

When I was little, we adopted a cat from the humane society. She was so glad to be out of there and regarded me as her saviour, she came and slept with me, purring so loudly I couldn't sleep. I was young and stupid, so the obvious solution seemed to lock her upstairs (my room was in the basement). I fear that played a large part in the traumatized, skittish, antisocial behaviour she developed. But could also be that she was a barn cat and didn't get enough human attention as a kitten. My mom getting her declawed surely didn't help matters. Poor thing.

I don't think there's much you can do about her playing, but for her deliberately waking you up, the best thing is to never ever ever give in. If you'd prefer to sleep until 7, then stay in bed until 7 even if she won't let you sleep. She may or may not get the message eventually, but you'd be surprised at how much rest you can get lying in bed awake, just not being "up."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagferi View Post
FeLV is transmitted cat to cat. Along with FIV FIP..

Can't tell you how many outdoor cats my practice sees every week that get themselves seriously hurt outdoors. Mainly scrapping with other cats.
I've tried to reason with my cats on the merits of staying indoors. Don't need to tell you how that worked out. I settle for annual check-ups and all the vaccines my vet recommends.

My philosophy is that in the wild, animals get into fights sometimes, and sometimes they die. I look at how much enjoyment my cats get out of going outside and weigh it against the risk of them contracting a disease or getting injured. Not only their enjoyment outside, but their obvious misery staring out the window when locked inside, and their vocal demands to be allowed out. Their opinion on the matter is crystal clear.

Both of my cats have spent time in the pet ER over injuries due to cat fights. I've learned the hard way that Meika and Ketamine are not good buddies. Morphine also makes her freak the fuck out. Pinky's most recent encounter resulted in house arrest for the remainder of the summer, as it was the second time in 3 months and her previous injury had just barely healed. This time, at least, she was able to heal herself without antibiotics. I just had to shave the area, rinse it out the once, and let her tongue do the rest. Now that it's winter, house arrest is over since she's never gone more than 10 minutes before her toes get cold and she's done with that nonsense.

For a while, I kept a window open so they could come and go as they pleased. That ended quickly when I woke up to a big black tomcat greeting me in the kitchen like it was the most normal thing in the world. "Well good morning, Monkey. Fine lady cats you have there. What's for breakfast?"
__________________
Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."

Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 11-16-2013 at 08:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 11-17-2013, 03:21 AM
kdt26417's Avatar
kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
Official Greeter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Yelm, Washington
Posts: 5,891
Default

Dirtclustit,

I honestly don't think we're "speaking the same language." Sure we're both speaking English, but my words seem coded to you, your words seem coded to me, and yet we both see our own words as un-coded. Sounds to me like two different dialects of the same language.

Re: hostility ... I won't just dismiss that charge against me out of hand. It's true that I don't make myself 100% vulnerable on this (or any) forum, and sometimes I "disguise my hurt feelings" with diplomacy. I don't like my enemies to know that they're getting to me. But beyond that, you've nothing to fear from me beyond words ... "just words."

Re:
Quote:
"I will assume that you have absolutely no authority because if you did your behavior indicates you would abuse it."
Could be; don't know; haven't experienced this strange thing called authority because I've never had it, and certainly don't have it now. I'm no expert, no moderater, no administrator, no custodian, no nothing. Just some puny little guy with no job, virtually no chores, and lots and lots of time on his hands with which he amazingly accomplishes next to nothing.

I'm sorry you don't believe that I'm trying to be honest. I don't know how to prove my sincerity, so I'll just respect your right to see me as you do.

My grievances? only that there's so damn much hostility on this site (and there's sites much worse than this) as a whole. I ask every member here, right now: Why? Why? Is it so awful to contemplate treating each other like valuable human beings, rather than obsessively one-upping each other all the time? Bit of hyperbole on my part perhaps, but jeezh, as polyamorists we're already "outcasts;" must we outcast each other as well?

Again, sorry for giving offense. Not intended.

---

Re (from SchrodingersCat):
Quote:
"My philosophy is that in the wild, animals get into fights sometimes, and sometimes they die. I look at how much enjoyment my cats get out of going outside and weigh it against the risk of them contracting a disease or getting injured. Not only their enjoyment outside, but their obvious misery staring out the window when locked inside, and their vocal demands to be allowed out. Their opinion on the matter is crystal clear."
Understandable. Exactly the reason Shipley was an indoor/outdoor cat. He definitely had the passion for the outdoors in his heart. I just wish he wouldn't have had to pay for it so dearly. He didn't deserve that punishment.

That's all for now.
Regards,
Kevin T.
__________________
Love means never having to say, "Put down that meat cleaver!"
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 11-17-2013, 09:12 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Middle of Oregon
Posts: 431
Default OK

so I guess you weren't talking about humans as pets, I guess you weren't alluding to BDSM dynamics and indoor meaning sex within a specific set of people and outdoor being outside of that group?

I guess you were not physically threatening people who did not threaten you, I guess you weren't intimidating other users by "implying" you know where they live

Come to think it, why would anybody take offense at your completely transparent, honest attempts to have a discussion on sensitive topics, that people may have a hard time divulging their view, and your complete sincerity makes them feel all that much better about themselves, excepts that it's not sincere, so

No it doesn't, it sounds manipulative, you say that's not what you meant, and for some reason I don't believe you, so it is probably I good idea, if I don't respond to you. I am definitely down for that
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 11-17-2013, 09:34 AM
london london is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: UK - land of the free
Posts: 1,635
Default

Huh?
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 11-17-2013, 09:38 AM
ColorsWolf's Avatar
ColorsWolf ColorsWolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: CA, U.S.A.
Posts: 360
Default

Kevin, "Since we seem to agree that cats and dogs are genetically-malformed creatures in that they have the lifelong "mind of a child," I suggest comparing letting them out unsupervised to letting a four-year-old human child outdoors unsupervised. What, deprive that child of the chance to be fierce, wild, and free? Ummm yes as a matter of fact, that's exactly what a responsible human parent will do -- obviously."

Woah, woah, woah, we have no such agreement.~

I regard all creatures as children when they are in fact children, but when they are adults I consider them in fact adults no less capable than any other creature of living an independent life of their own in their own way.~

This capability is often squashed and squandered by the popularly accepted practice of "infantilizing" "Pets": which is the practice of retarding or "inhibiting" their mental growth.~

Any mentality "of a child" in an adult is almost always a result of horrible parenting.~

Most healthy non-Human creatures are not comparable to a Human child unable to progress farther than than their child-like state, to make this comparison is to throw blame off of the parents responsible for this non-Human creature and forsake all responsibility for their actions.~


Your examples are truly sad and I know first hand what it is like to have a dear family member die because of circumstances out of your control like my brother Parrot Fred and because of circumstances I think I could have controlled like my Brother Cheeto but I didn't think of it that way at the time, because it was a vision I had in my dreams and I didn't understand its' meaning until it was too late.~

But this happens to every one, Human or not, we do the best we think we know how to do with our children and those we love and we release them to go out into the world on their own to live it free: they don't always come back, they may take different paths then we hoped for them, and they may, as we all will, die, all we can do after they are on their own is to try be there for them when we can to offer them guidance, warmth, any object they might need, and our love.~

I have no answer to your abstract questions.~

I don't believe the world owes any one any thing.~

Even if you are the best person you think you are or others think you are, that doesn't mean things you find horrible will never happen to you regardless of what creature you are.~

We live our lives knowing all the horrible things in life we don't like could happen to us at any time, but the fact that we have the freedom to live our lives how we choose to helps us understand what "life" is.~

I don't think you understand what it means to be "wild" or "independent".~

Without "danger", there is no "safety", without "sadness", there is no "joy", you can not truly appreciate "life" if no one ever "died", you can not truly appreciate "freedom" if you have never been "coddled", and you can not truly appreciate being "cared for" if you have never been "free".~
__________________
Love yourself, you are beautiful!~ ^_^

*Believe in yourself, you can do anything*!~ ^_^

Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~


Last edited by ColorsWolf; 11-17-2013 at 09:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 11-17-2013, 10:11 AM
SchrodingersCat's Avatar
SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 2,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
I regard all creatures as children when they are in fact children, but when they are adults I consider them in fact adults no less capable than any other creature of living an independent life of their own in their own way.~
You can regard them however you want, but evolutionary biology disagrees with you. Since the science has been experimentally confirmed, and you are just making shit up on the internet, I'm siding with science.

Domestication causes changes in the brains of domesticated animals. These changes cause them to be stuck at adolescent development as compared to their undomesticated ancestors. Physically adult cats don't think the same way as adult lynx or lions. Adult dogs don't think like adult wolves. They think like juveniles who have not yet left the pack because they don't have the maturity to make it on their own. That's one reason why domesticated animals have such short life spans in the wild.

You don't have to believe it. There will always be ignorant people who refuse to accept the validity of the scientific method. Thankfully, your kind have the rest of us around to make sure their computers keep getting invented and their vaccines get developed (and that they get protected by the increasingly-threatened herd immunity) and that new antibiotics are developed when they dismiss the whole "finish your prescription" thing.
__________________
Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 11-17-2013, 11:06 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Middle of Oregon
Posts: 431
Default I would weary of calling psychology a science

science has the ability to separate out truth from lies, there has been much psychological research that has been done, but done quietly, that by most peoples definitions would be called a religion.

Some people might call it a philosophy, but it is one I firmly believe in. And I do believe human beings cannot be considered animals, as I do not believe animals can be held accountable, I can't speak for ColorsWolf, by I suspect it might be possible that they were speaking of the innocence of a child being not responsible -- as in being held accountable -- until they are adults. That all animals which are not Human Beings are accountable, even the adults of non-humans, but also the children of Human Beings

In some ways you must first recognize you have a choice, and then choose the right, to become part of a deserving life that has authority, at least that is what I put my faith in, they those who chose wrong will lose all power and control because they could not voluntarily choose to recognize what is the responsible way to live so that your freedoms and liberties exercised do not leave you with a debt to all life.

animals and children don't have accounts that any banks I know of or recognize as having anything authority in this River that is the dun-colored water that is the blood of life
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 11-17-2013, 12:03 PM
SchrodingersCat's Avatar
SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 2,130
Default

Neurology, not psychology. I'm not just talking about behavioural tests, although there's plenty of evidence there as well. I'm talking about brain dissections comparing the actual brain development between many species at different ages. Sexually mature, "adult" cats and dogs don't develop the brain structures present in adults of their wild associates. After several generations of ferality, however, these structures show up again.

If you spoon-feed your child from birth until maturity, and in other ways inhibit their ability to use their hands, they will fail to develop the motor skills to feed themselves. This will show up as underdeveloped brain tissue in the region of the brain responsible for fine motor skills. The potential is still there in their DNA, but without practice and necessity, those structures just don't develop. If you were to then turn this child out on their own, they wouldn't be able to learn how to hold a spoon because they would have missed the developmental window. Oh, they might be able to fist grab it and manage to shove some food in their mouths, but they would never do calligraphy.

It's the same thing with kibble-feeding your cats for 2 years and then throwing them out in the backyard to fend for themselves. Their brains just don't know how to do it. Oh sure, they still have enough instinct to chase and pounce on mice, and they might be able to "survive." But they certainly wouldn't thrive and as soon as the food supply gets tight, they'll be the first to go.

Saying that being held responsible is the difference between animals and humans is completely arbitrary. He wasn't saying that people aren't animals. He was saying that animals are people.

You speak in riddles. I've had a bank account since I was 6.
__________________
Gralson: my husband (works out of town).
Auto: my girlfriend (lives with her husband Zoffee).

The most dangerous phrase in the English language is "we've always done it this way."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
adults, animals, children, humans, pets

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:18 AM.