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Old 11-16-2013, 12:08 AM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Amen YouAreHere.

Re (from ColorsWolf):
Quote:
"There are many difficulties when it comes to living independently as any human who has just moved out of their parents' house can tell you and there are many difficulties when it comes to living dependently on someone else as any human who has yet to move out of their parents' house can tell you."
[bracing self] ... While this is likely somewhat off-topic, can I just say that I understand you're scheduled to start basic training in February? If that's true, and if you live with your folks right now, I'd like to suggest you seeeriously brace yourself for the jarring reality that lies ahead. You speak of the difficulties of "independence" (house-dwelling human independence being very different from wild non-human independence); well no offense but I fear that you probably have no idea. I think you're in for a dose of homesickness you'd never have dreamed you'd be capable of. Please don't "over-value" how wonderful independence (of any kind) is just becasue dependence sucks in its own ways.

The above paragraph contains *zero* ridicule. I am seriously, sincerely concerned for your well-being here. I strongly believe that you'll see what I mean, come February.

Quote:
"I just think that when it comes to non-humans, whenever and as much as we can we need to recognize, understand, and respect their decisions whether they decide they want to go outside without you or to stay inside lazing by the fire."
First of all, can we all recognize that at least one Polyamory.com member on this thread does indeed let her pets outdoors (virtually? always?) whenever they want, and said pets willingly and happily return home every time? So if you feel you must complain about people who "trap their pets" indoors, at least confine the complaint to those of us who really do so.

And having said that, how likely is it, honestly, that the "truly-trapped-indoors" pets, if they were given that freedom to go outdoors (by themselves) any time they wanted, that those pets wouldn't want to come back home after their outdoor romp? I tell you, if they didn't come back, the *only* reason would be because they had become lost and *couldn't* find their way back home again. Which is exactly why so many of us (especially the city-dwellers amongst us) refrain from exposing our pets to that option. We just don't think that there'd be that much point in doing so. It wouldn't enhance the pets' lives *that* much and in fact, would probably prove to be their sad, slow, confused, hungry, cold, lonely (and quite possibly smashed by a car as you yourself mentioned) demise. Wow, yeah! Let's sign our pets up for that.

It's at least different for a pet who's already accustomed to regularly going out on its own, who knows the scent of its home well and is mighty good at wending its way back. I've had pets like that myself. But if a pet is already so immersed in their indoor environment that they could never pull off that trick, at the least their "human masters" would need to accompany them on their first, oh, say -- 100? admittedly don't know -- outdoor adventures to be sure that they had indeed learned the scent and location of their home.

Sounds like a great and cool thing for a human to do for his/her non-human friend, but for most of us humans it'd be too much time and trouble (especially with cats who have much built-in penchant for disappearing into the bushes and quickly becoming unfindable). Too much time and trouble (for our selfishly double-booked schedules), and too damn risky (for the cat at least), quite frankly. Could probably "train through supervision" the cat quicker if he/she started the training as a kitten, but an adult? "That cat's too old to learn that new trick."

Since we seem to agree that cats and dogs are genetically-malformed creatures in that they have the lifelong "mind of a child," I suggest comparing letting them out unsupervised to letting a four-year-old human child outdoors unsupervised. What, deprive that child of the chance to be fierce, wild, and free? Ummm yes as a matter of fact, that's exactly what a responsible human parent will do -- obviously.

FWIW, why not also chew on this food for thought: Back in the day when I lived in Michigan, I "owned" one of the coolest/sweetest cats of all time; Shipley by name. Shipley loooved (or was very used to, accustomed to, and comfortable with the routine of) going outside, even in the bitter Michigan Winter snows. Well. My wife and I indulged his adventurous spirit, and pretty much let him come and go freely as he pleased. Let me just say though, that he loved food as much as any of us, and loved coming home to bask in its warmth, food, love, etc.

Well: one day, he did not come home. For three days in fact, he was utterly missing. What had happened to him? Had he at last decided he wanted to be truly free of all dependence and live out in the wild?

No.

When he finally reappeared, he was in our garage, resting by the food dish we'd left there in hopes of coaxing him into coming back. It was Winter -- of course, as luck would have it. And Shipley didn't look like he was doing well at all. He could barely stand up let alone walk. He looked emaciated.

As I'm sure you know, cats prefer to hide away when they're sick. Their instinct is to protect themselves in their weakened condition by sealing themselves away from all other creatures who might take advantage of them. But that instinct, in Shipley, after three days, had at last been utterly defeated. When we saw him in that garage we were overwhelmed with relief, and ohhh did he ever share in that relief. We could hear him purring long before we got close to him, right from the moment when he first spied us.

So here's what had happened. At some point while he was out there on his lengthy journeyings, he'd come down with FeLV. Possibly the result of us leaving that food out for him in the garage. A possum had been getting into that food; the possum might have been carrying the infection and passed it on to Shipley.

Whatever brought the infection on, it had literally ruined Shipley's life. After being diagnosed at the vet's, he returned home with us and chose a pillow on the basement bathroom floor as his new home. We walked down there daily to love, pet, feed, and water him. He was so weak he had to eat/drink without getting up. And so he remained, for weeks, and weeks, while we hoped and prayed he'd regain enough strength to live a normal life (sort of like modern AIDS victims can usually do).

No such luck for Shipley. And then finally came that wretched day when, upon arriving at Shipley's side in the morning, I observed that one of his eyes was filled with blood. He purred as sweetly as ever to see me (I, who had at times, back when he was healthy, *not* treated him kindly). But it was clear that he was now much sicker than ever. We had hoped he'd be better by Christmas, but this cosmic sign convinced us at last that the only humane thing to do for this once so-very-free-to-roam-and-see-the-world cat, was to have him put to sleep.

At the local shelter, where euthanasia was done for free (our finances weren't doing well at the time), I held Shipley while waiting for them to come and get him. He purred and purred and purred. He loved me sooo much. He totally trusted me to keep him safe, warm, and alive. And they came to get him, and he still purred while in their arms, and then they all disappeared into another room, and I never saw my Shipley again. His suffering was finally over, but great God in Heaven, did I ever suffer that day, and at this instant I still ache from the pain left in my heart where Shipley's life used to be.

So you tell me how "great" it is to let your pets outdoors.

Yah, sure, teach them to avoid cars. I had an exclusively-outdoor dog as a kid -- Buffy -- who lived to please and obediently accepted our training that she was never, ever to chase or come anywhere near a car ... that if she crossed the street she must look both ways. She completely adopted those wise habits.

Well wouldn't ya know it: One day, some dog-hating bastard purposefully skidded far enough off the side of the road to hit Buffy.

Buffy then proceeded to live for three days (since my folks were too cheap and old-fashioned to get her to the vet and have her put down) with crushed innards (go ahead, tell me what a pleasant way *that* is to die) -- with puppies that she could no longer nurse.

And what had she done to deserve this? exactly as much as Jesus had done to deserve to be crucified. Nothing. She was the sweetest, most obedient dog I've *ever* known. If she ever "fucked up," we'd call her over. She'd know we were gonna smack her on the head (and say "No!" -- no affirming word even for a dog) but she'd come without hesitation anyway, her head bowed in true remorse for disappointing the humans that she loved.

Well, once again, there's life in the great outdoors for your pet. Oh yeah. That's a wonderful thing to do for them. As humans, knowing what we do about the horrors that lurk out there, I rather think it's easily as cruel to "free our pets" as it is to "incarcerate them."

Cars the #1 killer of pets? You may be right. Except of course, those pets who reside night and day indoors where no car will ever hit them. Ohhh the cruelty of confining your pets indoors. Am I dripping with enough sarcasm yet, or have I made my point and can shut up?
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-16-2013 at 12:27 AM.
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  #72  
Old 11-16-2013, 12:17 AM
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Hi opalescent,

Alas I fear you have two choices:
  • adopt Tiny Cat out (trying like hell to see that she ends up in a very loving home);
  • exercise epic patience while a naturally-nocturnal feline slowly tries to learn to live like a diurnal ape.
It's really that simple, and I'm sorry to bear that bad news. Tiny Cat means you no harm. She only longs for you to share with her the sheer joy and excitement that, in her eyes, nighttime brings. Cats who learn to sleep at night have really done an amazing thing. And I don't know how old Tiny Cat is but if she's anywhere vaguely in the kitten or adolescent ballpark, that just makes it all the harder for her to learn this. As cats get older, they get "sleepier," and what they basically do is start sleeping/dozing most of the time both day and night.

And that's the reality of life with a cat. Some are better at adopting a day shift than others, but none are genetically programmed to live that way.

Please don't "hate" Tiny Cat (and I know you wouldn't). Just help you and her to make the best of the flawed situation, however you can.

... sad for you both.
Affectionately,
Kevin T.
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  #73  
Old 11-16-2013, 12:35 AM
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FeLV is transmitted cat to cat. Along with FIV FIP..

Can't tell you how many outdoor cats my practice sees every week that get themselves seriously hurt outdoors. Mainly scrapping with other cats.

Dogs disappear into the dark when left out asst night. Get themselves hurt. Into a fight. Get themselves full of porcupine quills. Eat something like rat poison the neighbor put out.

Oh yeah it is smart to allow your pets to roam free. Not.

My dogs will kill anything that enters their yard. They are terriers killing stuff is what they do. I warned the neighbors regarding their outdoor cat.
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  #74  
Old 11-16-2013, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
It wouldn't enhance the pets' lives *that* much and in fact, would probably prove to be their sad, slow, confused, hungry, cold, lonely (and quite possibly smashed by a car as you yourself mentioned) demise. Wow, yeah! Let's sign our pets up for that.


Since we seem to agree that cats and dogs are genetically-malformed creatures in that they have the lifelong "mind of a child," I suggest comparing letting them out unsupervised to letting a four-year-old human child outdoors unsupervised. What, deprive that child of the chance to be fierce, wild, and free? Ummm yes as a matter of fact, that's exactly what a responsible human parent will do -- obviously.


Cars the #1 killer of pets? You may be right. Except of course, those pets who reside night and day indoors where no car will ever hit them. Ohhh the cruelty of confining your pets indoors. Am I dripping with enough sarcasm yet, or have I made my point and can shut up?
I have a dog who goes out whenever he wants. BUT-my acre of land is fenced and he's not prone to jumping the fence (even though in younger days he was quite capable.

Our cat also went outdoors.

However-the weekend of Halloween, my daughters family's cat went outdoors and while he was out-husband had to go to the emergency room. Kitty didn't return that night.
Kitty didn't return at all because he got run over by a car.

Going out isn't always best.

I have raised children.
My children-from about a year on have played outside unsupervised by an adult.
BUT AGAIN-they are IN A FENCED YARD (with a dog that makes a lot of noise if there is a problem).
If I lived in a different environment-there is no way in hell I would let them outside unsupervised.
Hell-I don't let any of them use the public restroom alone in the airports when we fly out of state.
ANY of them (and they are ages 22 and down).

So yeah-there are circumstances to consider.

A dog can be trained to be cautious. But drivers can be assholes. Neighbors can do. As a child, a neighbor intentionally poised our dog IN OUR YARD.

Having a pet is much like being a parent.
No one who hasn't experienced it can really say what is "best" in any given circumstance. Because the variables are so numerous and one can't possibly address all of the possible combinations.
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Old 11-16-2013, 02:38 AM
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Default There is right and there is wrong and there are truth and lies

and it's our choice which to live rightly or wrongly, to live a life of lies or to know the truth.

and so when something wrote

Quote:
And as the others have said, a domestic animal's natural habitat no longer exists in nature. It now exists within the infrastructure of human society. You could argue that it's a sick, tragic thing humans have done, intentionally breeding once-wild animals to become reliant on human surroundings. But what's done is done, and what's more, I (in case you hadn't guessed) don't even think it's all that tragic. In fact, the whole sordid tale springs from the collective workings of evolution. That is, humans evolved to be like they are; in a word, to be "fashioners" of domestic animals (as well as builders of cities and users, changers, and/or preservers of the look and make-up of Earth and its atmosphere). It's neither good nor bad, it's simply the way that evolution has played out.

Are we "justified" in keeping domestic animals? It seems to me that we're neither justified nor unjustified. It just is what it is. Each human person will have to decide for themselves what to do about the problem, and God knows we won't all agree on what should be done, but again, why not cope with the irksome state of affairs with grudging respect for each other as long as we have in common a sincere concern for the non-human people's well-being? We can't do much better as a collective species right now.
I say those words are nothing but rationalized lies that something chooses to believe, but I don't believe they honestly believe it, but that is the mentality they want to present to you as an excuse

The same way abusers who take advantage of a marginalized demographic, take advantage of situation wherein they think you must put up with their abuse, when nothing could be further from the truth.

All you have to do is quit concealing the truth, as predators rely on confusion the same way terrorists do.

you can call humans pets, but those who do so for any other reason than that be their preference by their own knowledgeable freewill, are not Human Beings, as they have themselves rejected the choice to behave humanely

the same as saying "what's done is done" and using it as an excuse to continue doing it.

When we as individuals do wrong, as individuals or as a people, the attitude of there is nothing we can do about it, it was an honest mistake, let's move on, is not the same as doing the next right thing

and even if you did attempt to do the next right thing, you need to first be honest or else you continue to add insult to injury, which compounds daily , esp if you are too proud or too foolish to admit your mistakes

but don't take my word for it, feel free to choose what you will recognize as truth, just remember if you don't respect truth, you have no right to complain it was impossible to hear truth, when it was you who consciously chose not to listen
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:58 AM
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Default Taking a reply from the other thread and replying here instead...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
YouAreHere and Kevin, when it comes to the independent cats (I don't think it's as simple as "wild" and "domesticated" in the sense that you have defined them, Kevin) I agree with the ex's actions towards them, but with the particular cat desiring to come inside perhaps I would have let them in for they seem to desire to at least "come inside the house", but I can also see why not to let this cat in either as he could be encouraging the cat to be more independent.~
Well, except his motivation is simply that he feels the cat is "gross".
He doesn't let the kids touch him. He doesn't touch him. I've discovered that the poor thing really enjoys a good head scratch.

I don't know... All rants aside, I'm going with LR's answer in that what's best depends on the people, animals, and circumstances. Patches was obviously an indoor/outdoor cat before I adopted her. Baby/Bubba? Not interested in the least. Do I let Patches outside? No.

Cruel? Maybe. She does yowl to go outside when I'm out there doing yard work or the like. But still, if she were to contract FeLV or FIV and bring it home, now Baby's got it too. I don't have to deal with flea/tick medicines all the time, and I don't have to deal with the cars and roaming dogs and assorted wildlife. There *are* coyotes in town, not far from here. Fisher cats too. The kids and I prefer to have Patches around for a few more years, even if she's unaware of whether or not she wants that for herself.
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  #77  
Old 11-16-2013, 07:25 AM
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Default Part 1 of 2

Tackling the latest posts in vaguely reverse order:

@ YouAreHere ... your ex thinks the one cat (and the others I presume) gross, won't touch him, won't let the kids touch him ... thus, no head scratches for him, though he must dream of them at night (or whenever he sleeps). Yep, either finish the "job" with a shotgun, or suffer through the chore of catching him and getting him off to the animal rescue league. Feeding him is nice, yes, but euthanasia would out-and-out be nicer.

And I'm somewhat peeved that the animal rescue league dumped the capture-chore into your ex's lap. It's their job to give a damn about what happens to such non-human persons as this. Yes yes: "If we did it for you we'd have to do it for everyone." But screw bureaucracy; if cause for exception to any rule ever existed, this would be that exception. Sigh. Me and my own strong opinion about non-human people. Sorry if it's getting old and/or abrasive.

Re:
Quote:
"I'm going with LR's answer in that what's best depends on the people, animals, and circumstances."
Quite agree. The "four-year-old" example was a hypothetical example and nothing more. What I was getting at is that responsible human parents don't just send their wee ones out into the wide wide world without some solid assurance of safety and protection. And that by extension, pets who are "mentally disfigured" into being hopelessly dependent, also shouldn't be sent out into the wide wide world without some solid assurance of safety and protection. (I trust I'm talking more coherently now but will gladly clarify/qualify further as needed.)

With that, I'll just say that I'm right with you on the rest of your post.

---

@ LovingRadiance ... I see no problem in the way your raised/protected your kids, and no problem in the way you keep/protect your pets. Not that all that I "rejoice" over the death of your cat. Just that it's hard for humans to know sometimes what's best for their non-human adoptees and we do vary in whether we let them out at all. Necessary judgment call based on many factors. Hell of a risk but if you do feel that your pet wants and needs out (without supervision), sometimes you take the risk. I did, with nothing but Shipley's best interests at heart. Well, I chose poorly. And paid for my foolishness with trauma sufficient to scare me into keeping all cats I "own" henceforth indoors.

Having a pet is indeed like being a parent. Pets do largely trust us to help them make the "best" decisions in the world we've built around them.

Parents make mistakes. Pet-owned owners do too. It's the same principle. I just think most of us feel as bereaved when a pet of ours suffers/dies as we do when a child of ours suffers/dies. We just wouldn't dream of doing anything with high odds of precipitating such suffering and death, in a child or a pet. Simple as that.

---

@ Dagferi ... appreciate the info on FeLV; didn't realize it was strictly a cat-to-cat bug. In the meantime, I can tell that you agree with me though that granting a pet special rights to roam alone and free out in the city or wilds is a questionable favor at best.

[continued below]
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:25 AM
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[continued from above]

@ Dirtclustit ... I'll try my best not to excuse myself, and as token of that, I'll admit that my previous-to-last post was rather retributive in its tone and attitude. Maybe at the time I felt justified, given the numerous times ColorsWolf has (inadvertently?) stomped on the feelings I entrusted into his care. But retaliation is never the answer, and here I am, quite guilty of it. I'm not proud of that.

And FWIW, I'm glad ColorsWolf finally has a friend around here, someone who's got his back when the rest of us are "going after him" and "tearing his dreams for all living things down" in a sort of "feeding frenzy." No one should have to suffer that much persecution alone. So it is good in my perspective that you have stood by his side at this time, and I suppose I should even ask you to continue in that noble service, even if you do so only because you happen to agree with him.

But I wonder. Does ColorsWolf (and Dirtclustit, do you) care about my feelings? about the pain I've suffered, both in losing pets, and in times just prior to a new pet rescuing me from my sufferings? Do you care about the feelings of the non-human people I loved, cared for, and then lost forever in poignant sickness, injury, and death? You seem to care more about proving me wrong and winning an argument with me than you do hearing me with your heart for a moment. These angry/floundering/intense posts I've posted about my own pets have drawn shitloads of tears out of me and I can't even remember the last time I cried like that. I barely let one or two stray tears escape when my wife died.

In my opinion, I do my best to consider new ideas and implement them into my life and mind if I can tell they're an improvement over my previous life and mind. I see that you disagree. I'm sorry we can't be friends (not even disagreeing friends) in that regard (and others?).

I see that I have deeply offended you by my doting/smothering attitude towards domestic (and even wild) non-human persons. Sorry to be such a "helicopter parent" to them, I think it's the best thing to do, and can't in good conscience think otherwise without specific, indisputable examples of proof that I'm wrong.

Everyone I know "lies to themselves," subconsciously. I don't have the solution for wiping out that vice, which doesn't mean the solution doesn't exist, nor that I won't (continue to) try to think of one.

You feel that I'm a dishonest person. That I purposely believe in false things. Sorry but there's just no agreement to be had between us in that area. I feel I try quite hard to believe in true things, though I certainly don't think I constantly succeed.

So now I'm the predator, and you and ColorsWolf are my prey? Not a thing I can do to disprove that. I respect your right to believe all that about me, and reserve my own right to believe differently at the same time.

Bragging alert: I don't think anyone else on this site has tried as hard as I have to understand, accept, and agree (as much as I honestly and in good conscience could) with ColorsWolf. He has often "bitten my hand" when I reached out to touch him. It's been neither fun nor easy. I may indeed give up on it at some point. But at the moment, Dirtclustit, it is you and I who must decide whether we ought to be conversing with each other.

Re: human pets ... I was referring to those humans who willingly and wantingly call themselves pets, and seek out the role with other humans who'll call themselves masters. I know that it's a kink that does exist out there, even if I don't have numbers, percentages, or statistics. Probably not a big number, to be fair, but.

You know, I'm vanilla, but in a "non-kink" way I'm a pet. I don't have a job. I hardly do a lick of work around the house. My two companions do all the heavy lifting for me, while showing me gracious affection. They literally provide me with whatever access to good-quality food/water I need. And they spend time with me, chatting, eating, watching TV, whatever. Sounds an awful lot to me like I'm a human pet. They obviously keep me *only* because they love me and like my company, because that's *all* I really offer them in return.

Re: saying "what's done is done" and using it as an excuse to continue doing it ... as I stated elsewhere, we could certainly loose our pets into the wilds and leave them there until, after some ten thousand years, their long-lost genetic spirit to live alone, independent, and free was restored. I just happen to think that ten thousand years is too steep a price to pay for that solution.

Re:
Quote:
"When we as individuals do wrong, as individuals or as a people, the attitude of there is nothing we can do about it, it was an honest mistake, let's move on, is not the same as doing the next right thing ..."
Oh, that seems exposed to private interpretation to me. What's to be done about white Americans enslaving black Africans, or the Nazis killing unnumbered innocents? In those two cases, we don't exactly have any choice besides moving on.

As discussed in the Polyamory and Racial Minorities thread, reparations are a vain and hopeless attempt at "fixing the past." And what is "the next right thing" we should be doing to fix the Holocaust? resurrect the dead? turn back the clock? We've already tried to give the Jews their traditional Holy Lands back, but that almost seems to have done little more for them than plunge them into a perpetual state of war with their neighbors. So no, I don't always think it's always wise or even possible to just try to "go back to the way things were."

Too proud/foolish to admit my mistakes? How, then, do I manage to berate myself for numberless mistakes every day? Maybe my problem is that I make so many mistakes I can't wrap my mind around all of them.

Re:
Quote:
"But don't take my word for it, feel free to choose what you will recognize as truth, just remember if you don't respect truth, you have no right to complain it was impossible to hear truth, when it was you who consciously chose not to listen."
I don't respond well to threats of any kind, and I'm hearing a threat in that paragraph. If we can reason together, then we're talking. But saying, "Ohhh you'll get yours" to me does nothing but let me know I have (yet another) enemy here. That's too bad. See, the cool thing about friendship is that friends can have civil discussions about things with each other, and respect each other's experiences and resulting perspectives.

And in most cases, the "real truth" is all in the details. Yes he/she (my pet) may be called a "slave," but what's the actual nature of his/her slavery/life? What are the details?

And it's the details that we've been trying to discuss in this thread. Freedom is a big wide word (like love) that can mean so many things. My pets aren't free to come indoors and go outdoors as they please, but they are free from 99% of the cares of the world. That's a pretty decent pay-off if you asked me. If I could ask my pets, I'm sure I would. But since I can't, I make the best guess available to my far-from-perfect mind.

In the future, please provide more specifics, examples, and details of how I'm acting so horrible. Then at least we'd have a basis for a clean debate (though a considerate exchange of ideas would be better). Right now all we've got is, "You scumbag, Kevin. You don't care about anything except your dirty lies and excuses."

Oh I get that message loud and clear. Guess you're free to fire away if you've got more to tell me. I'm not inclined to block fellow members, I think it's too "chicken" and "ostrich-with-head-in-sand" for me. So I guess that means you can credit me for courage (or is it masochism) in that regard?

Regretfully,
Kevin T.
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-16-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
And I'm somewhat peeved that the animal rescue league dumped the capture-chore into your ex's lap. It's their job to give a damn about what happens to such non-human persons as this. Yes yes: "If we did it for you we'd have to do it for everyone." But screw bureaucracy; if cause for exception to any rule ever existed, this would be that exception. Sigh. Me and my own strong opinion about non-human people. Sorry if it's getting old and/or abrasive.

Re:


Quite agree. The "four-year-old" example was a hypothetical example and nothing more. What I was getting at is that responsible human parents don't just send their wee ones out into the wide wide world without some solid assurance of safety and protection. And that by extension, pets who are "mentally disfigured" into being hopelessly dependent, also shouldn't be sent out into the wide wide world without some solid assurance of safety and protection. (I trust I'm talking more coherently now but will gladly clarify/qualify further as needed.)

With that, I'll just say that I'm right with you on the rest of your post.

---

@ LovingRadiance ... I see no problem in the way your raised/protected your kids, and no problem in the way you keep/protect your pets. Not that all that I "rejoice" over the death of your cat. Just that it's hard for humans to know sometimes what's best for their non-human adoptees and we do vary in whether we let them out at all. Necessary judgment call based on many factors. Hell of a risk but if you do feel that your pet wants and needs out (without supervision), sometimes you take the risk. I did, with nothing but Shipley's best interests at heart. Well, I chose poorly. And paid for my foolishness with trauma sufficient to scare me into keeping all cats I "own" henceforth indoors.

Having a pet is indeed like being a parent. Pets do largely trust us to help them make the "best" decisions in the world we've built around them.

Parents make mistakes. Pet-owned owners do too. It's the same principle. I just think most of us feel as bereaved when a pet of ours suffers/dies as we do when a child of ours suffers/dies. We just wouldn't dream of doing anything with high odds of precipitating such suffering and death, in a child or a pet. Simple as that.

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@ Dagferi ... appreciate the info on FeLV; didn't realize it was strictly a cat-to-cat bug. In the meantime, I can tell that you agree with me though that granting a pet special rights to roam alone and free out in the city or wilds is a questionable favor at best.

[continued below]
Oh-I was totally with ya!
I was giving an example of how a 4 year old can have more freedom IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES-same as a pet.
IF the circumstances aren't right, then hell no on freedom! Too dangerous.
I was actually in completely agreement with you.

In fact, just yesterday I was explaining to our 6 year old, that she can't tell the dog (who was laying down) to "go lay down" and get anywhere-because he's only about as smart as Little P (who is actually 2) and so he hears that and thinks "but I AM laying down so why do you keep saying that?" and just tries to look cute while laying down.
(She wanted him to lay down about 3 feet to the right because he was in the way of the puzzle she was working on).

Anyway-yes-dogs and cats are much like small children and part of being adults in their lives is giving them the APPROPRIATE amount of freedom for THEIR safety and well being-which is completely dependent on the circumstances.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:45 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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kdt-
NOW I understand how you manage to continue responding! Because you DO have the time.

I tried the "reading all of the posts" from certain posters, figuring out what they were getting out, understanding the limitations of their experience that were driving some of the "off kilter" comments they made.
Ultimately-I found myself too busy to continue.
Primarily because-I have kids to raise still-and I don't have the desire or energy to take on another child or pet or project.


Was that out loud?
Hmmm. I'll have to consider if I am sorry or not...
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