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  #91  
Old 11-17-2013, 01:19 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default OK SchrodingersCat

It's turned into another debate to prove who is right and who is wrong.

I was talking about accountability, a metaphorical bank account. But that was a nice slap, you debate well.

and due to the fact that nearly every post here flips back and forth between hostility and warmth, speaking one minute of animals and the next human pets, I am not having an easy time dealing with it.

I don't agree with your views on animals, on pets (either human or dogs and cats)

I wish I could get you to understand how your words come across, but I honestly do not believe you are not aware.

It's not my place to tell you how you can and cannot treat people who come here, gaslighting sucks, but I do believe you know these things.

but if you believe you are honestly trying to understand me, I don't believe you, so I should probably go my own way rather than argue with you.

It's not that agree with ColorsWolf and think that profile right and when you post from yours wrong

It's that from my view, you do the same thing to the ColorsWolf profile as you do to me, claim you are seriously attempting to understand, when you are intentionally disagreeing and being argumentative.

it's the same story over and over again. The perfect example illustrated in this thread and all "cross pollinated" threads and kdt's thread on racial aspects of polyamory

You all claim to be sincere, and I don't believe it, in fact I view it as intentionally insincere, but my opinion appears as the minority, and frankly, I don't like the way people treat others here, even if it is all an act or an abusive test.

So I will just leave it at that
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  #92  
Old 11-17-2013, 04:04 PM
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Default Part 1 of 2

Re (from Dirtclustit):
Quote:
"So I guess you weren't talking about humans as pets, I guess you weren't alluding to BDSM dynamics and indoor meaning sex within a specific set of people and outdoor being outside of that group?"
Emm no I don't believe so, I was just talking about certain humans (and these do exist surprisingly) who think of themselves as pets towards other humans (somtimes in a romantic context). Yes it's a kind of kink, but nothing about "indoor" meaning "sex within a certain group of people" or "outdoor" meaning "sex outside that group." Sorry about the miscommunication on my part.

Re:
Quote:
"I guess you were not physically threatening people who did not threaten you, I guess you weren't intimidating other users by 'implying' you know where they live."
What? No I wasn't physically (nor even verbally) threatening anyone (though I did objurgate a few persons for what I saw as threats on their part). Implying that I know where *any* other members live? What would be the point? I have no such knowledge (and if I did, I wouldn't use it without that member's express permission).

Sorry if stuff I said made you feel hurt, attacked, lied to, manipulated, or anything of the kind. I acknowledge that we're dealing with sensitive topics that a lot of people probably barely dare to talk about.

You feel I'm not sincere. I see that I'm not trustworthy in your eyes. There's no way I can disprove that (unless continued attempts at peacemaking count as proof). I respect your opinion of me because it's based on the knowledge you have. Doesn't make me feel great about myself but I'm sure I'll live.

Sorry that we can't seem to have a civil discourse. I hope you'll live well and not be troubled by the nastiness we've experienced here. Time does heal all wounds, as they say.

---

Re (from ColorsWolf):
Quote:
"I regard all creatures as children when they are in fact children, but when they are adults I consider them in fact adults no less capable than any other creature of living an independent life of their own in their own way."
Even dogs and housecats? Awww crap, I thought we'd come to an agreement about that. Well sorry, that was my misunderstanding.

Re:
Quote:
"Any mentality 'of a child' in an adult is almost always a result of horrible parenting."
But what I don't get is, how can a human be a parent to a non-human? Humans don't have the kind of instincts and expertise for such a job, do they? Alas I fear that "master" or in some cases "mere companion" is about the most any human is qualified to be towards any non-human. I guess if you want to call that "just excusing myself and giving up," you're quite entitled to that opinion; I admit I don't try to train my pets (of whatever age) to become wild and live outdoors. Truth is I don't even think that's good for them. But then I'm the odd duck here who pities naturally wild animals as well and wishes humans could find better ways to help take care of them. So again, I am a "helicopter parent" towards all non-human people: I believe in "swooping down" and rescuing them whenever they're in trouble. Horrible parent indeed. I accept the moniker.

Thing is, I don't even believe we should try to be parents toward any non-humans, at all. I can see assuming roles such as protector, steward, even just admirer (e.g. from afar). But parent? inappropriate in my opinion unless parent and child are both of the same species.

Even taking two non-human people of two different species who become great friends: one non-human person doesn't try to "parent" the other non-human person, they just both stick together and huddle together for warmth, comfort, and companionship. Which is coincidentally exactly what your average "pet owner" and his/her "pet" do.

I believe in humans raising humans. I don't believe in humans raising non-humans. Sorry if that attitude offends your sensibilities. It is the best I know of for now (and as always I am willing to hear the other side, even if I can't guarantee I'll change my mind or agree).

I suppose the obvious argument would be that humans are unfit to keep company with non-humans, period. Maybe so, maybe so. Would find it a relatively lonesome life to do without pets (or zoos or even keeping company with non-human people in the wild, lest I, being a human, inadvertently plant/nurture the seed/sapling of domestication in said non-humans), but I guess I'd survive. There seems to be enough for me to do.

Re:
Quote:
"I don't believe the world owes anyone anything."
I suppose it doesn't. It's just a world circling around the Sun which is essentially the only thing it can do. And it's not like we've done anything special for it.

Point being, bad things happen to good people? I agree, and that's true of indoor pets, outdoor pets, and non-pets. Just that the odds are a little better indoors (even for humans) ...

Re: freedom ... it's not hard for me to appreciate the viewpoint that it sucks to throw away one's freedom for the sake of security. That's just what America did when we came up with that damned Patriot Act. But as I said to Dirtclustit, it's really all about the details in the end. What is the nature of the "freedom" being discussed, versus the nature of the "security" that the freedom is being traded for? Sometimes a very-universal-sounding concept/principle/idea actually doesn't perfectly fit all situations. You often have to go case-by-case, that's what I believe.

Re:
Quote:
"I don't think you understand what it means to be 'wild' or 'independent.'"
Hell no I don't understand what such things mean. I've never been wild or independent. I've always depended on other people in one way or another. Cripes, I've never even lived alone -- ever. And always, whatever people I've lived with, they've tended to be the ones to shoulder the jobs of tending to the bills and logistics and other "adult things." I almost always just "coasted along for the ride." So you could easily say that I myself don't have the mind of an adult. Bad parenting by my own mom and dad I guess, which is odd since they were always so adamant that we become independent with a capital "I." I'd think they must be disappointed with how I turned out, but they don't criticize me for my childliness these days, which seems like a kindness.

Re: law of opposites (i.e. to comprehend "X," one must experience both "X" and "not-X") ... arguable but I'm uncertain about subscribing to it 100%. Seemingly some truth to it at least. But one thing I *don't* believe is that suffering is somehow inherently or ultimately good per se. Sure we can make the best of bad things -- which I consider to be to our own credit, not to the credit of the bad things themselves.

---

Re: animals and people ... quite a side issue but in case getting us all on the same page matters, can we agree that scientists classify humans as one kind of animal (i.e., a subset of the animal kingdom)?

[continued below]
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-17-2013 at 11:13 PM.
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  #93  
Old 11-17-2013, 04:05 PM
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Default Part 2 of 2

[continued from above]

Re (from SchrodingersCat):
Quote:
"Sexually mature, 'adult' cats and dogs don't develop the brain structures present in adults of their wild associates. After several generations of ferality, however, these structures show up again."
So possibly less than ten thousand years will do the trick of re-wilderness-wiring feral cats and dogs. Sigh. Mixed feelings about that but I admit it makes kicking all the adult pets out of the house (unless they prove they don't want to be kicked out?) a relatively better solution than I'd previously thought. Let's just say that even "several generations" of suffering amongst these newly-freed pets seems to me like an awfully steep price to pay.

---

Re (from Dirtclustit):
Quote:
"Due to the fact that nearly every post here flips back and forth between hostility and warmth, speaking one minute of animals and the next human pets, I am not having an easy time dealing with it."
Do you mean that there's too much rapid change (for at least one or more of us) in the tone and content of this thread's posts? (No attack here, just wondering.)

Does gaslighting suck? I must admit that it does.

Re:
Quote:
"If you believe you are honestly trying to understand me, I don't believe you, so I should probably go my own way rather than argue with you."
Well, sometimes "parting ways" verbally/postwise speaking is a better alternative than just going back and forth with the endless punches (be they intentional or unintentional).

Re:
Quote:
"It's that from my view, you do the same thing to the ColorsWolf profile as you do to me, claim you are seriously attempting to understand, when you are intentionally disagreeing and being argumentative."
Fine line between "truly listening" and "just biding one's time while thinking up a snappy retort." I hope we'll all consider that reality and try to improve ourselves in it because it tends to plague us all.

Re:
Quote:
"You all claim to be sincere, and I don't believe it, in fact I view it as intentionally insincere, but my opinion appears as the minority, and frankly, I don't like the way people treat others here, even if it is all an act or an abusive test."
Okay, so this isn't about SchrodingersCat or even me, it's about all of us ("us" being defined as everyone on Polyamory.com except ColorsWolf and Dirtclustit I guess -- I don't know).

Well gee I don't like the way people treat others here either, though I don't believe it's all an act or an abusive test.

Jeesus man, how do you even stand our company believing we're all intentional liars? Polyamory is all about honesty, so if you are an honest person then you are subjecting yourself to a forum that is rather beneath you. I don't know what you should do about that, but it must suck logging on here every day only to get exposed to more abuse. What little I've felt of that feeling sure hasn't been too enjoyable.
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Last edited by kdt26417; 11-17-2013 at 04:15 PM.
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  #94  
Old 11-17-2013, 10:33 PM
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Okay, while I enjoy a good, healthy discussion and debate, this is killing my brain cells. I hereby resolve to only post pet pictures to this thread from here on out (unless I get asked something directly, since it would be rude to not respond, y'see).

So... Because this is all beginning to make no sense, here is a picture of a cat with a pancake on his head:

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  #95  
Old 11-17-2013, 11:00 PM
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LOL; a pancake on his head? W'll, why? This makes even less sense than ever ...

"That's right; we need to keep pets because by golly, someone's gotta put a pancake on someone's head! and it ain't gonna be my head either, let me tell ya."

Ahem; sorry for those question marks. Didn't mean to put you in a downright uncomfortable spot.

Thank you for the pic, and the (temporary) relief that went with it.
Sincerely (or am I ... heheheheh, you'll never know ...),
Kevin T.
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  #96  
Old 11-17-2013, 11:18 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default The only way you are not being an emotional predator

is if more than one person is posting from your profile kdt, so no I don't accept your apology, nor your insistence of your intent being not ill natured

To do so would an indirect way of me saying your behavior is OK, it is not

and their are enough forums, websites, interest groups and what not that I there doesn't need to be any overlap.

In my eyes it is about boundaries and respect, and it much more than just one member of your family's behavior.

It is the entire family, perhaps multiple families. But yes, I should not have ignored this for as long as I did

It would best if I left it at that
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  #97  
Old 11-18-2013, 12:19 AM
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Wow -- getting hard to even get a word in edgewise. Anticipating possible thread lock-down by mods. Which'd be a shame because much of this thread has actually been uplifting. All good things must come to an end though, I suppose.

Re:
Quote:
"The only way you are not being an emotional predator is if more than one person is posting from your profile kdt ..."
Jesus, okay, I'm an emotional predator! After all, that pejorative is both impossible to prove/disprove, and impossible to define in such a way that everyone will agree. So: Guilty. But to the charge of being one of multiple persons using the kdt26417 account: I plead innocent. Unless ... if you believe I might (or do) have multiple personalities, I can see that (for argument's sake). Different personalities tapping into the same account: that would make more sense.

Gods, the silliness. Me, purposely looking for people I can emotionally abuse. Have I been known to emotionally abuse people in the past? Absolutely guilty as (self-)charged. But my meds have been well-enough tweaked for a long time by now that I at least externally hold it together (like, 99% of the time?). And furthermore, *seeking out* emotional victims to get off on was never my cup of tea. The emotional abuse I spewed out was always because I just plain lost it in a state of rage and panic, not because in my deepest heart of hearts I wanted to act that way.

But, I do agree with ColorsWolf that virtually everything we experience must be taken as subjective because (even though it's probably objective per se) it becomes subjective once it passes through the filters of our individual minds.

In the here and now (at the very least), I've become known far and wide as a wimp that a fly wouldn't fear. But, if here, on this thread/board/forum, I am making people feel as if I'm purposely hunting them down, then at the least I have failed to communicate in a humane fashion and as such, I will ask pardon/forgiveness even if it's a vain/hopeless request. I will try to do better, believe it or not.

Re:
Quote:
"... so no I don't accept your apology ..."
Not a problem, because: you weren't required to accept it. As I understand it, the word "apology" means a *request* for pardon/forgiveness, not a *demand* for such.

Re:
Quote:
"... nor your insistence of your intent being not ill-natured ..."
Again I accept your non-acceptance, because I never meant to require you to take me at my word; I only expressed sadness because it looked like you wouldn't and couldn't take me at my word. But I admit I'm sad now too to have been right about that prognosis. I admit that I do wish you'd trust me (if only a little). Without any trust, how can we function at all?

From my point of view, if my intent is ill-natured, then I've successfully 100% fooled myself into supposing the opposite of that truth. No need to believe me; I'm just stating it for the record.

If you want to assert that my behavior is not okay, then I will accept your right to assert that (and won't try to prove you wrong). My behavior may very well be totally un-okay. Again like ColorsWolf (as far as I understand) might say, it's all subjective to each one of us so I could certainly (subconsciously) trick myself into thinking my behavior's great when it's actually deplorable. But if you really want to know the truth, I'm not feeling so self-confident about my behavior at the moment. I'm quite worried that I'm possibly screwing up big-time here, somehow saying the wrong thing, etc.

Re:
Quote:
"There are enough forums, websites, interest groups and whatnot that there doesn't need to be any overlap."
Ummm ... do you mean that I should just stick to participating on Polyamorous Percolations and leave Polyamory.com alone?

If so: Jeeezh. Since it's not actually illegal to participate on multiple forums, I guess I'll just keep doing that misdeed, as my mom once sneeringly quoted me when I was a kid: "because I feel like it!" There are limits to what I'm willing to do ...

If not: then I'm totally confused and don't understand what you mean. It's not a crime for me to be an idiot, right? If it's not, then I reckon I must be blameless in my state of incomprehension here. And while clarification/re-statement/examples might help and would be appreciated, I neither expect nor require you to thus indulge me.

Re:
Quote:
"In my eyes it is about boundaries and respect, and it's much more than just one member of your family's behavior."
Emm, okay, but just in case someone will believe me: I've neither blood relatives nor chosen relatives with accounts on this forum that I know of (and would be shocked to find out I had any that I didn't know of).

But if you mean, "KDT, stop blaming your family for your own wretched behavior," then I'll agree to stop doing that (if I was doing that). I'm (at least technically) an adult and should take responsibility for my own actions by now.

Re:
Quote:
"It is the entire family, perhaps multiple families. But yes, I should not have ignored this for as long as I did ..."
Wait ... are we still talking about just me, or the site membership as a whole? When you say multiple families, I don't know if you mean that literally or figuratively or ...

Hubboy. This just can't be good ... for any of us.
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  #98  
Old 11-18-2013, 12:59 AM
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Uh, was just wondering if we could set the above post aside for a moment, and allow me to ask/request of you the following: instructions on some way, any way, that I could possibly convince you that I'm not out to get you (emotionally or otherwise)? What do you need me to do differently that would fix the situation?

Now I admit, there are some things I can't and/or won't do, such as:
  • throw my cat out on the street,
  • stop intentionally rejecting the truth (unless you can explain to me, in terms I can grasp, how I'm intentionally doing so),
  • stop posting on this thread,
  • stop posting on this forum,
  • stop posting on any forum.
The above probably shouldn't be construed as a comprehensive list, especially as addled as my brain currently feels. But even if it's something I wouldn't and/or couldn't do, I'd still like to at least know what I'd need to do to restore your confidence in me, just so I'd at least know where I'd gone wrong. I even hold out an outside hope that there might be something I could bring myself to accomodate you on, but first I need your help; I need you to tell me what that would be. Something that would prove to you (or at least give you some hope) that I could be trusted.

For instance, would you like me to stop responding to your posts? I'm willing to do that (if you'll at least request it of me). What else. There must be other things I could talk myself into doing too that would help. If you can think of any, I'd be much obliged if you'd be willing to let me know.

For the record: No sarcasm, ridicule, criticism, or anything of the like is intended in this post. Just a last desperate attempt at diplomacy, I suppose. (And I would prefer silence to the utter lack of diplomacy -- I direct that sentiment at myself not you.)

Sorry everyone if I'm just making it worse and worse (and I'm a-feared that I am). Just thought I'd ask. Please lend me your pardon if I'm beating a dead horse.
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Old 11-18-2013, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
LOL; a pancake on his head? W'll, why? This makes even less sense than ever ...
And THAT is exactly why.
My work here is done.
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Chops: My partner. Poly. In relationships with me, Xena, and Noa.
Xena: Poly. In relationships with Chops and Noa, and dating others.
Noa: Married, Poly. In relationships with Chops and Xena (individually).

Blog thread: A Mono's Journey Into Poly-Land (or, "Aw hell, there's no road map?!")
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  #100  
Old 11-18-2013, 02:03 AM
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And, if I may break my own rule (that I just put in place) this once...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
Sorry everyone if I'm just making it worse and worse (and I'm a-feared that I am). Just thought I'd ask. Please lend me your pardon if I'm beating a dead horse.
Kevin?

Breathe.
Get away from the computer and - yes - the boards. Go enjoy those people you live with, or the pets, or some fresh air, or maybe even a snack and/or a drink. Just get offline for a while. It's good for you. Like broccoli.
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Dramatis personae:
Me: Mono. Divorced, two kids (DanceGirl, 13; and PokéGirl, 11), two cats, one house, many projects.
Chops: My partner. Poly. In relationships with me, Xena, and Noa.
Xena: Poly. In relationships with Chops and Noa, and dating others.
Noa: Married, Poly. In relationships with Chops and Xena (individually).

Blog thread: A Mono's Journey Into Poly-Land (or, "Aw hell, there's no road map?!")
Slightly more polished blog with a mono/poly focus: From Baltic to Boardwalk
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