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  #81  
Old 11-10-2013, 03:12 PM
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BrigidsDaughter BrigidsDaughter is offline
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I've read the article too, when it was posted on Facebook. and found it helpful.
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  #82  
Old 11-10-2013, 03:20 PM
northhome northhome is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
That article is really helpful.
I second this wholeheartedly.

"there is a seemingly-completely-unconscious position of privilege being developed by certain polyfolk that is leaving them apparently completely incapable of relating to the people who don't do things the way The Populists seem to keep espousing things should be done."

I love this. It's funny how no matter what realm of human activity one looks at there will always be some group that try to define what is "right", and then use that position to browbeat any unfortunate that does not meet up to their "standard".

As far as I am concerned, as long as it's consensual and no one is getting hurt, live and let live. Even if it might be Politically Incorrect.
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  #83  
Old 11-10-2013, 04:09 PM
LoveBunny LoveBunny is offline
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Originally Posted by northhome View Post
I second this wholeheartedly.

"there is a seemingly-completely-unconscious position of privilege being developed by certain polyfolk that is leaving them apparently completely incapable of relating to the people who don't do things the way The Populists seem to keep espousing things should be done."
Yep. Not all of us are ourselves capable, or (as in my case) have a mate who is capable of embracing the "correct" way to carry on multiple relationships. For example, I don't want to leave my very awesome mono-amorous husband whose one flaw is that he's very uncomfortable with the unconventional lifestyle I yearn for, so I compromise (he insists on total DADT, which is frowned upon in much of the polyamorous community as far as I can tell.)

Personally, I have been in triads before, one which lasted nearly 2 years before I bowed out (the other two members of the triad got married soon after,) but my triads were always organic (this was before the days of internet dating, or internet forums.) I agree that most "unicorn hunters" probably won't find what they're looking for going at it the way they do, and if they do, it won't go as they hope. But I give them total leeway to try without an ounce of harshness or judgment from me.

It's funny, I can see these various dynamics playing out my life right now, which is why I've been following this thread closely.

Earlier this week I went to drinks with a female friend of mine who is in an open relationship with her guy. She brought up that he's been wanting a threesome. She's open to the idea, but admits she's not very attracted to most women. The guy joined us, and the three of us talked it out, me playing the part (not wholly hypothetically) of a possible "unicorn." My position was, what's in it for me? I take of my clothes and the woman isn't into me, ouch! The guy is having a great time but will he call me the next day? What woman would agree to this? Only one who is very drunk, very lonely, or very attracted to the guy and wants him for herself.

On the other hand, I have been flirting lately with a lesbian couple, and I'm really into the dynamic I have with them. They aren't unicorn hunters, I think they just dig me, and as I have a husband of my own, I'm not at a disadvantage if I join them once in a while.....win-win. I'm thinking THIS is the difference between a situation that is contrived verses on which is "organic."

Love this thread, guys, keep it rolling!
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  #84  
Old 11-11-2013, 02:11 PM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Originally Posted by RiverDwellers View Post
Thanks Dirtclustit. I really didn't mean to get everyone stirred up in this way.
It wasn't anything you did to get everyone stirred up. It's semantical bullshit, although that's just my opinion, but many people people around here call and couple desiring a triad "unicorn hunters" which is fine, and I completely understand that many people have done unrepairable damage to their relationships, I just disagree that it was the triad configuration that is the problem. I view Franklin as a typical punk male blogger, but on top of that, also seems to be a part of -- what I see as -- a very destructive grammarian movement to narrowly define "right polyamory".

But there is a whole web filled with foolish advice, it's not only that I disagree with his views on poly, I disagree with -- again what I see -- as attempts to influence "poly communities" into drawing up plans as to what/who is acceptable and what/who should be afflicted with shit, and I view that as wrong even if you are involved with the person or at least indirectly connected through metamours.

I have very black and white views of wrongful discrimination and feel he takes an ignorant view of the definition of bigotry, the male rape culture we live in, and just in general his way of -- again what I see -- mind fucking people for fun.

But to keep it on topic with triads and poly, my view is poly is more focused on love, NOT sex, and taking any relationship into a sexual relationships prematurely will cause problems if your intention is for the relationship to be based on love, with sex being a natural extension of that love. It's not rocket science, it's love, and to pretend that it is some specific failure that requires a bill of rights does nothing but mock what a loving relationship is all about.

He is entertainment, but not something I would take seriously as to "how to do poly" unless you like being the butt of his jokes or target of his jabs and online belittling.

The bottom line is, his plausible deniability and weak disclaimers do not excuse the fact that adults and their consented relationships are only their business, and attempting to influence other knowledgeable adults' relationships is the same type of crap that poly people have faced from society.

He is good at describing problems that appear relevant, but their relevance is usually purely semantical and not based in reality nor are they actual problems in the dynamics to trashes. Everyone knows that if you treat someone like an asshole, it generally isn't going to work out

on that note, he is a shining example of the painfully fucking obvious, yet it's worded in subtle, belittling ways to appear as if he is superior, all while denying it completely which equals one big poly mind fuck, which some people like or at least find humorous, whereas as I don't like it, nor do I find it funny, nor do I care about peoples opinions who find it offensive for my views, I would gladly ignore him like the rest of the yahoos if he kept his subtle hand out private electronic places, and that goes for every idiot author on the wide world of the internet's web.

or did I say too much again?

oh fucking well,

It wasn't anything you did or said River Dwellers, trust me, my opinion of punk polyamory was well formed long long ago, in the seemingly distant galaxy of Oregon

what's he going to do, talk more shit? absofuckinglutely positively impossible, all more bullshit past a point -- which was many many moons ago -- reached a mathematical limit as it approached the numerical value of infinity long before I even had a computer with an internet connection
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  #85  
Old 11-11-2013, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
He is good at describing problems that appear relevant, but their relevance is usually purely semantical and not based in reality nor are they actual problems in the dynamics to trashes. Everyone knows that if you treat someone like an asshole, it generally isn't going to work out
Another POV here - Franklin's site really did wonders for me, as I started navigating these waters from the POV of a Mono person who was just starting to become involved with a Poly person. A handful of the articles were extremely useful for me to point to and say, "Hey! This is the stuff I haven't been able to articulate - THIS is why I'm uncomfortable with <x> and <y>, and can we all work on this before you guys go whole-hog?"

Some of those articles helped me relate better to P, and some of them helped P and M1 relate better to my POV. I'm glad those resources were there.

You may have your opinions of FV's site, but the problems he addresses are/were real-world for me, at least. And last I checked, I wasn't a sockpuppet.
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Dramatis personae:
Me: Mono. Divorced, two kids, two cats, one house with many projects.
Chops (previously 'P'): My partner of ~3 years. Poly. In relationships with me, Xena, and Noa.
Xena (previously M1): Poly. In relationships with Chops and Noa, and dating others.
Noa (previously AG): Married, Poly. In relationships with Chops and Xena (individually).

My navel-gazing blog thread:
A Mono's Journey Into Poly-Land (or, "Aw hell, there's no road map?!")
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  #86  
Old 11-11-2013, 03:18 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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That so-called article was all very well. Her attitudes and use of expletives made it seem more like a rant than something coming from a therapeutic POV.


Like YouAreHere, I find usefulness in Veaux's website. I do not spend hours reading many poly sites or listening to weekly podcasts. I just get on with my life, which happens to be poly, but is not any longer full of drama. I've only read 2 or 3 of Veaux's articles. I also have read at Practical Polyamory a few years back.

I do not consider myself a "poly populist" or whatever. I do not demand others do poly exactly the way I do. If you need a lot of boundaries and rules, or DADT, because of trust issues in the primary couple, so be it. Maybe you had a bad childhood, maybe one of you was a cheater before you became poly, maybe one of you is mono and confused, and wary. Whatever.

Having rules around an alternative lifestyle, when one is new to it, is common. I homeschooled my kids in a form called unschooling. Other people I knew used a bought homeschool curriculum, or enforced sitting down and "doing school" at desks in the home, for a prescribed number of hours a day. Some of these families kept that up, the strictness. Others started that way, and became more relaxed as they trusted more in the eagerness of their children to learn, and could do school in a more open, hands on, child led way. It really didn't matter to me.

So, it doesnt matter to me if newly open couples have their stricter boundaries as they grow into trusting poly to work, as they grow in trusting their partner to treat them respectfully.

But going back to the subject of THIS thread, I do object when your rules include that we (the couple) only date together, and our shared gf must love us equally, and only date or fuck us as a team. Rules for a couple are one thing, harmful rules that are forced onto another, is something else again.

My point is, Unicorn Hunting just does not work. But so many poly noobs think 3ways ARE the only way to do poly. So, I just like to inform them it is the least successful way to do poly. But if they insist on doing it anyway and learning by doing that I was right, it's their lives to live as they please.
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  #87  
Old 11-11-2013, 03:49 PM
northhome northhome is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
So, I just like to inform them it is the least successful way to do poly.
That's terribly good spirited of you

However, I can think of a number of very unsuccessful ways to do Poly that could well vie for the bottom ranking. Maybe we could all chip in and make a list of Poly Nightmares?

How about this one for starters: "We're all equal".....
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  #88  
Old 11-11-2013, 04:34 PM
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ImaginaryIllusion ImaginaryIllusion is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
harmful rules that are forced onto another, is something else again.
And this is the part I think tends to get missed in a lot of these discussions, as everyone runs to the rescue of the poor beleaguered unicorn from the nasty red eyed unicorn hunters.

If the main thrust of the rescue is that the Unicorn is her own person, with wants, desires, and feelings of her own...which is all fine and good.
But that means that the Unicorn is her own person, with the responsibility and capability to manage her own wants, desires, feeling, etc. like any other adult. Thus nothing can be forced on her in a consensual relationship which she herself isn't willing to agree too.

Many relationships don't work our for a variety of reasons, and people get hurt during the process. But...we're all grown ups...unicorns included, and we get to manage the consequences of our actions and choices.
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  #89  
Old 11-11-2013, 04:51 PM
london london is offline
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I'm all for personal responsibility. In fact, when I first heard about the concept of unicorn hunters, my first thought was about the accountability of this "third" person. They should be scouting ahead for red flags. However, we were all raised in a monogamous mindset. Well, most of us. And getting away from the idea that you are "borrowing someone's spouse" is difficult. I think that unicorn hunters (often unintentionally) exploit that to justify their more unreasonable demands. The same can be true for a vee with anyone in an established relationship but I suspect in a triad, it is magnified.
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  #90  
Old 11-11-2013, 05:06 PM
northhome northhome is offline
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Originally Posted by london View Post
They should be scouting ahead for red flags.
Exactly. Sometimes I get the feeling that people are simply wanting to find a new class of victims to save - and a Unicorn fits the bill. It simply doesn't sit comfortably with these 'rescuers' to accept that a person (OK, most likely a woman) might able to make clear, rational and informed decisions about her life.

Spot the Catch-22 here? Caroline Myss calls it woundology - and I see a projection of this. "She's being pursued by a couple - she must be a victim. Oh you poor thing, that nasty couple is about to eat you for breakfast. I'll save you...".

This spoken by a person (again, often a woman) who fights for strong, independent women who are not living their lives according to some old patriarchal model. What are you supporting - victim mentality or self-actualisation?

That's not negating the fact that the whole "we'll find someone to complete our relationship" model is a total disaster in almost all cases. I'm simply saying, stop trying to save people from themselves.
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Last edited by northhome; 11-11-2013 at 05:20 PM.
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