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  #81  
Old 08-27-2010, 08:56 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by Superjast View Post

1st I have to say, that I don`t think someone handling a situation badly, where they find out a person is a post-op transexual is a 'so-called' bisexual. They are just as bi-sexual as any other bi-sexual, albeit obviously a jackass, if they are rude about it.
Yes, I apologize for using the qualifier "so-called." It came out of my own sense of hurt and anger I feel for my gf and other transpeople who struggle every day with that situation and similar ones.

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There is a division in my head personally, between what I am attracted to, and the regular part of me, that believes in treating human beings properly and not judging them or their bodies. I am not only open or accepting, but truly see someone as my equal, and of no shame for being different,..

That doesnt mean I am going to be attracted to them. I haven`t in the past. That includes post-op transexuals.

I read the posts here and reflected on why that is. I have come to the conclusion, that I believe, a lot of it has less to do with shunning a member of society then people would like to think. I know for myself, I realized a common denominator in my attraction. I like natural bodies, and am not big on any type of major body modification. Of course someone can pick flyshit out of the pepper jar, and start saying ' What about ear piercing, and hair dye ?' blah blah blabbedy blah. Point is, its a part of attraction to me. Has nothing to do with any sense of ' rejecting of the gender differences'.
Well, being transgender is a medical condition. I am sure you wouldnt object to someone having surgery to get the "natural" cancer or endometriosis or whatever removed from their body. For many transpeople, having gender reassignment surgery (top or bottom) is a life or death situation. (Transpeople are much more likely to be murdered or commit suicide that the general public, or than gay or lesbians.)

Here's an article about that.

http://classic.feministing.com/archives/018985.html

It's not elective cosmetic surgery like getting your nose made smaller, or your lips shot with collagen, or having your piercings gauged. If you knew the grief and shame my gf feels over her genitalia, breasts, beard, male pattern baldness, inability to become pregnant and breastfeed, etc, you might have a change of heart.

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This is something i`ve known about myself since I was 20. I think that knowledge carries over, and does have a few self placed blinders on. It doesn`t mean I won`t be open to it in the future, but for right now, I guess I like to keep my genders apart. Does that make me some type of failure because I know what I do, and don`t like ? If so,..I have to be honest with you,.I`m quite fine with being that type of failure.
No, you're not a failure. You might be less educated on the subject than you could be, as most people are. With all the progress people of color, women, lesbians and gays have made since the 1960's, the next area of civil rights is for the trans population. People are so stuck in the gender binary mindset. You know, when white men first came to the Americas, there were many NAs living as 2 Spirits. Quite often they were shamans in their communities. The (so-called, heh) Christian conquistadors shot them on sight. It's been an extremely painful struggle for transpeople in Western society for a long long time.

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As for all the labels...

This thread I have heard of 30 + genders,...which actually interests me. What doesn`t interest me, is the mindset, that if we don`t know all 30, are not current on all 30+, that somehow we need to apologize because we have slighted someone out there, somewhere.
I hear you feel like you are in the wrong somehow. Til recently (October of 08) I've lived a life of cis-gendered hetero-normative privilege (despite being rather gender fluid and IDing as bi most of my life) and I am learning so much about this issue in the past few years. Previous to becoming romantically involved with my gf early last year, my daughter met and dated and eventually became engaged to a transwoman. This transwoman lived with us for a couple years as she began her transition. They were together for 5 years total. Now my daughter is dating 2 transgirls! She's poly too! lol

I don't feel shame about my ignorance. I am just excited to have my consciousness raised. I hate accidentally hurting peoples' feelings, so when I learn how to be more culturally aware, I appreciate the education.

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This,..is how people lose credibility. And before you all get your panties and briefs in a bunch. Think of a few things first.

In the business word, they know no matter how many times a company changes hands, merges, or reinvents itself,...if they constantly change company names, they will lose customers and clients. People will not keep up and follow. That is why even very prominant places know to go with one name or the other, or merge names. Your MSNNBC, or your TD Canada Trust,..are merged for a reason. So people can still follow a line of association.

There is always going to be part of the population that has a bad experience with a word or label. Every 5 to 10 years, you will have a 'new' crop of self identified people, and all this label changing, is NOT good for the overall picture of acceptance or credibility.
Actually, I am quite on the other side of the fence here on this. I think the labels are good (if sometimes confusing at first)! Education is good. If this is your first experience with dealing more than in a passing way with this subject, I hope it's piqued your interest. Transpeople are just sticking a toe out of the closet. There is a lot to learn about this topic. This thread about labels is a teeny tiny tip of the iceberg.

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Same goes with words like 'slut',..people are being told to 'reclaim' that word, and put a positive spin on it. I`ve asked this before, and am asking it again. Does it not then make more sense to reclaim other sexual orientation, and gender specific words, rather then coming up with 20 new names, to appease the over-sensitivity of people ?
"Appease the over-sensitivity?" This term, like "psychobabble," dismisses the incredibly difficult experiences transpeople have to deal with every day, just walking down the street. The whispers, the finger-pointing, the threats of violence, the assaults.

I don't know what you mean by, "make more sense to reclaim other sexual orientation, and gender specific words, rather then coming up with 20 new names?"
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  #82  
Old 08-27-2010, 09:22 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I like the words. I think the language evolves and new words appear all the time, it's all natural. I don't think you can really force it so just use the words you want and explain them to people who don't know them. Hell, there are "normal" words I don't know and have to look up all the time!
I think it's good to be able to express diversity. It's good that we have the word "stool" and the word "armchair" even if they're both seats. Because they're different enough that you might want to sit in one and not the other.
Sure, there can be saturation at some point, and it can be good using words that are recognised rather than always trying to come up with new ones, but when you have a reason, a meaning behind it, I say go for it.
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  #83  
Old 08-27-2010, 09:29 PM
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Derbylicious Derbylicious is offline
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Madglyn,
There is a lot of difference between understanding trans people and being attracted to them. I have never (to my knowledge) been attracted to someone who doesn't ID as the gender they were born into. That doesn't mean that it will never happen for me it means that for the time being that I identify as bi because it's an accurate descriptor of who I am. Who knows it could change.

-Derby
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  #84  
Old 08-27-2010, 09:46 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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This is a two part...point about labels.

The problem I find with labeling, especially micro labeling, is how it allows people to get lazy in their knowledge of a person. Which does happen. Once you start trying to find labels to try and describe every nuance you lose the humanity behind topics. This is the same for anyone and everyone. To take this to the extreme look at dating sites. They have to use labels to get people to attach themselves to each other. But how often are people immediately excluded because of a label without actually knowing the person.

But how much is lost by using specific micro labels. How much of a persons personality goes away. On paper, in the alternate community, I am plain jane (or john) But there is so much more to me than my labels. This is where my distaste for labels creeps in. They become diluted and counter productive. I see this in my case often...As a straight white male with conservative leanings I can get some really harsh conversations from the alternative community. Dismissing anything I say as pure ignorance. Meanwhile, if they would skip the labels and get to know me, they will realize who I am...not what label is attached to my "hello" sticker. I actually got banned from a topic board because I had the nerve to have an educated opinion on female bi-sexuality...how dare me...

Looking at this from the idea of reclaiming a label. You automatically and unequivocally confuse people. By reclaiming queer, for example, there are going to be hoards of people disconnected and confused. This does not make them ignorant, it just becomes difficult to transition that word. Hell I am as open minded and educated as they come, and I still don't know what queer means anymore. And for that matter, neither do the queers. There was a massive discussion about what is queer and how does it effect a certain event on fetlife. People felt very excluded because they no longer fell under the umbrella.

Unlike an armchair vs a stool (as mentioned above) which serves no other purpose. It is a chair, it doesn't have a personality trait or use beyond a spot for my ass, or my sub to be tied to. Does it get relabelled when I tie my gf to it. Does it become a 4 legged rack?...that argument doesn't really apply to people.

In the end, if you want the general public to understand anything, it has to be kept simple. 30 iterations of gender description makes it very very difficult for anyone to understand. Now of course, if no one cares about general acceptance, this point is fairly moot.

Thanks Magdlyn for explaining about the trans world. I enjoy learning about as much as I can. I know very little in this aspect and its something I enjoy reading about.

Last edited by Ariakas; 08-27-2010 at 09:58 PM.
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  #85  
Old 08-27-2010, 10:20 PM
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SourGirl SourGirl is offline
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Originally Posted by Derbylicious View Post
Madglyn,
There is a lot of difference between understanding trans people and being attracted to them. I have never (to my knowledge) been attracted to someone who doesn't ID as the gender they were born into. That doesn't mean that it will never happen for me it means that for the time being that I identify as bi because it's an accurate descriptor of who I am. Who knows it could change.

-Derby
Bingo. Derby hit the nail on the head.

***


Magdalyn, I can understand your need to get the word out, and to want to educate people. You see your gf`s pain and suffering first hand.

I see a difference in approach between us, that is all.

For example,I have first hand experience with loved ones having learning differences. I not only taught children to ride, with learning differences ( autism, tourettes, ADHD, multi-personality, etc) I have a son who is Autistic. What I learned though, is that I educate people on a need to know basis. When they ask, I offer the advice. I try hard not to get wordy. I throw away the micro-labels. Sometimes,..simple is good.
Everything in moderation, usually gets the best results.


People with learning differences face ridicule, violence, and have even been murdered. However I feel the worst that can happen is like what already happened with autism. It became the new, cool thing to donate a cause to. All this micro-labelling came about. Was a child ASD ? PDD ? Aspergers ? etc. All because people (parents) didn`t like the ' Rain Man' association with the word Autism.
I`ve watched the fad, the interest, the confusion , and the eventual boredom of people trying to learn about Autism.
...and now a few years after the 'hyperawareness' ( I call it a fad),..we are now back to 'Autism Spectrum Disorder.' Yet, the support has died down.

People gave up trying to figure it all out. The labels hurt more then they ever helped.

****

I`m already seeing this happen in spades with regards to sexual orientation and gender identification.
While your education is based on your first hand experience with this issue, my concern is a 'big picture' point of view.

..... The alienation of the very people you are trying to educate.
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  #86  
Old 08-27-2010, 10:24 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post


Looking at this from the idea of reclaiming a label. You automatically and unequivocally confuse people. By reclaiming queer, for example, there are going to be hoards of people disconnected and confused. This does not make them ignorant, it just becomes difficult to transition that word. Hell I am as open minded and educated as they come, and I still don't know what queer means anymore. And for that matter, neither do the queers.
And that's what happens when you oversimplify! I was thinking about this thread when I was out driving just now. Some people here object to micro-labelling. Very well. If you don't want nuances, call us queers. Oh, you don't like that umbrella either? What the hell, you can't have it both ways!

Just relax, understand that under the umbrella of queer lies those categories I listed upthread. Learn more about them if you want to be a queer/gay or trans-ally. If you don't, leave the topic alone. Maybe you'll come back to it if and when you become friends, lovers or the father or father-in-law of one.

The Inuit, I understand, have a couple dozen words for snow. Because snow matters to them, they need those terms. Because queers matter to me, I like to respect each one I meet and label them as they identify.
Quote:
In the end, if you want the general public to understand anything, it has to be kept simple. 30 iterations of gender description makes it very very difficult for anyone to understand. Now of course, if no one cares about general acceptance, this point is fairly moot.
Yes, my gf has painstakingly been writing very simple draft letters to her naive sheltered parents on this topic. "Keep it simple, stupid," can work, in the short term. Even if she keeps it as simple as possible, they are so stuck in a gender binary world, they may never get it. Which really really sucks for my gf.

Quote:
Thanks Magdlyn for explaining about the trans world. I enjoy learning about as much as I can. I know very little in this aspect and its something I enjoy reading about.
You're welcome, Ari.

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  #87  
Old 08-27-2010, 10:44 PM
Ariakas Ariakas is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Just relax, understand that under the umbrella of queer lies those categories I listed upthread. Learn more about them if you want to be a queer/gay or trans-ally. If you don't, leave the topic alone. Maybe you'll come back to it if and when you become friends, lovers or the father or father-in-law of one.
I will see if I can find the thread on fetlife. But, while thats what I think of when I hear queer, that is not what was being explained by this organizing group. They were excluding sub-groups of queer for not being queer enough. Thats where my confusion comes in, when its own community is confused by the definition

and ps eddie Izzard is funny as hell
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  #88  
Old 08-27-2010, 11:21 PM
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I love this discussion! Wow, thanks for it. I appreciate the spirit in which all this being discussed. That of respect and educating rather than forcing stuff onto other people which I come across quite often when it comes to situations where I need to understand people.

I think I might actually like micro labelling. I get that things get lost and I certainly have been lost, but I find them facinating. The thing is that I like to go at my own pace with them. Sort through them until I understand them and feel I can participate in conversations about them. I dislike when others get frustrated with me and call me priveledged because I don't understand how. Only I can call myself priveledged and not feel threatened and humiliated. I know I need to listen, and keep an open mind and when I feel confident in what I know I have no problem talking about my shit and misunderstanding of the world; in this case micro labelling.
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  #89  
Old 08-27-2010, 11:32 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by Ariakas View Post

and ps eddie Izzard is funny as hell

And an awesome advocate for the "alternative sexualities!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_kvXeMv-2k
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  #90  
Old 08-28-2010, 02:41 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
If you don't want nuances, call us queers. Oh, you don't like that umbrella either? What the hell, you can't have it both ways!

Just relax, understand that under the umbrella of queer lies those categories I listed upthread
I do like the word "queer". To me it means anything that is not "usual" or "mainstream". It doesn't have to ONLY apply to genders and sexual orientation-type stuff.
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