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Old 10-20-2013, 07:28 PM
Pienata Pienata is offline
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Unhappy Shit hit the fan.

Hi all!

I'm a 22-year old girl that has been in a relationship with Bambi, 28-year old male, for a little over a year now. From the very beginning this had been an open relationship in the sexual sense, though our sexual encounters with other people were rare.

About two months ago I met Tizza, a 25-year old male. I liked him from the beginning, coming home to Bambi claiming to have found my "future best friend", as I didn't find Tizza sexually attractive, and he, unlike many other men, didn't do anything to convince me he was sexually interested either. Strangely, this changed rapidly for me, as we saw eachother a couple of times in the following week. One evening when we were out in town and had a few drinks, I couldn't control the urge to kiss him, he was pleasantly surprised. One thing led to another and I ended up in bed with Tizza that night. I did not tell Bambi initially, even though we were usually honest about sexual escapades.

I saw Tizza a few more times before I told Bambi we were really more than just friends. I told him the reason I didn't dare tell him was because it wasn't just sexual; I was falling in love with Tizza. Bambi responded reasonably well, saying that stuff like that can happen, that I could do whatever I wished with it, but urged me to take a little care as I could hurt three people. Bambi and Tizza soon met eachother and got along well, with Bambi inviting Tizza over for parties at our place and Tizza inviting Bambi along with me to go sailing. For a first-time polyamourous venture, it seemed almost too good to be true.

But it couldn't stay this way. Last week, Bambi asked me to stop seeing Tizza altogether. It came as a complete surprise to me, according to Bambi because I'm largely insensitive to how he's feeling. I don't agree with this as I did notice some mild irritation every once in a while. Every time I noticed such a thing, I asked what was wrong, but he would just insist it's "Nothing..." He would also get agitated if I'd question him further. I'm quite familiar with this behaviour, and he usually does it for anything, whether he's burnt his potatoes or something is ACTUALLY wrong. Because it can truly be anything, I usually let it slide, assuming he'll tell me eventually if such a thing is needed.

As a result, I sometimes wondered whether he did or did not truly have a problem with Tizza, and to which extent. Whenever I would try to have a conversation about the implications of the new situation and the feelings involved, he wouldn't talk about it (as he usually doesn't talk about feelings much), and just said "It's all okay, okay?"

Well, it wasn't. He declared a veto on Tizza last week, and to my question "why?" he merely responded "because I ask you to, that should be enough for you."

I know my two months of knowing Tizza are short and I could just.. Say goodbye. But these two months have been quite intense and the thought of not having him in my life anymore leaves me heartbroken. I just want to fix the situation, but I don't know how.

At this point I'm still in touch with Tizza by phone/text, without Bambi's knowing, because I feel it's only fair to Tizza to at least keep him posted. I don't want to give up this battle just yet, but at this moment, I am respecting Bambi's wish for me not to see Tizza. Tizza is fully understanding of the matter and patiently awaits how things develop, but I feel that it is no decent treatment to just leave him in doubt.

Any advice is appreciated...
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:11 PM
bookbug bookbug is offline
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So you are just supposed to drop Tizza - a relationship Bambi okayed and participated in - with no explanation at all? That seems unreasonable. Relationships - all relationships - depend on full and honest communication. By not communicating, he isn't permitting you to fix it.
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Old 10-20-2013, 09:44 PM
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If Butch would have told me to give up Murf he would be told he would be the one hitting the bricks.

A veto would go over with me about as well as a lead balloon.
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:59 PM
Pienata Pienata is offline
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Okay guys, I feel I might have been a bit to brief, because A LOT of things have happened. I was just afraid nobody might respond at all if I wrote almost an entire novel, but put like this it was perhaps too simplified and I may have been too subjective in my summary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bookbug View Post
So you are just supposed to drop Tizza - a relationship Bambi okayed and participated in - with no explanation at all? That seems unreasonable. Relationships - all relationships - depend on full and honest communication. By not communicating, he isn't permitting you to fix it.
First of all, it isn't necessarily so that Bambi gave his blessing for me having a relationship with Tizza; technically, we have an open relationship but actual polyamory was not discussed. Literally, all he said was "Do as you please but take care, because you can hurt three people." And clearly, I did. I did want to bring it up but Bambi is generally not up for serious discussion, and we had some arguments along the way because I tried to bring it up again and again, which pissed him off. At some point, I started pretending a "relationship" with Tizza was about as uneventful as going to the loo, because clearly Bambi did not want to talk about it that much.

I do agree that he's not communicating - he never was of the communicating type. Usually when we have an argument, at some point he doesn't want to argue anymore, just wants to be grumpy for a while, not be touched or talked to, for as long as he needs. After that, he drops it and reverts back to as it was before there was any argument. Sometimes this is unsatisfying for me because I don't actually get my say, but I try to let go unless it's REALLY bothering me.

So he also didn't voice any problems he had with my developing "relationship" with Tizza. He doesn't let me fix it now because I'm five times past his boundaries or so. It's nigh impossible to talk to him now, because he feels that having to talk is "punishment" and after all, I was the one who did something wrong, so why does he deserve having to talk? What I did wrong, by the way, was seeing Tizza once more after he asked me not to. I explained myself saying that Tizza deserved being talked to in person as well, but he felt as if I was taking a piss at his feelings.

I let it rest for about a week now, and tried to bring it up again this morning. The sole response was an angry: "Do we have to talk about Tizza AGAIN? I don't want to talk about it." He went on to his usual sitting somewhere with a frown and not really responding to me so I dropped it. He's now again back to his joyful "nothing ever happened" state, but I am not satisfied.

How can I bring this up without getting an instantly defensive reaction?
Also, he didn't JUST say I had to stop seeing Tizza "because he asked me to". After pressurizing him into talking more he said the problem was that Tizza is clearly "too important" to me and me not wanting to stop seeing him was "proof of that". He didn't want to elaborate on the initial reasons he thought Tizza was "too important", or what "too important" means to him in the first place, as I rarely met with Tizza unless Maru was at work or otherwise engaged.

Quote:
If Butch would have told me to give up Murf he would be told he would be the one hitting the bricks.

A veto would go over with me about as well as a lead balloon.
For this the same thing goes: we weren't officially in a polyamorous relationship. We hadn't really talked about the implications of this Tizza-guy "invading" in our territory, even though I tried, so it would be different from your situation.

I do understand where you're coming from, as I felt resentment towards Bambi for this happening. But I see Bambi as the partner I want to live with, build a life with, perhaps have a family with, so I'm not very likely to leave him to continue my relationship with Tizza, whom I view more as a "secondary" (not in the sense that he's worth less, just with a lesser degree of entanglement) As for the resentment towards Bambi; after talking to Tizza this kind of faded away. Tizza went through a lot of trouble trying to make me understand Bambi better and comforted me saying that Bambi and I were great and we'd be fine.

Tizza is still very open towards friendship with Bambi if Bambi changes his mind some day. Basically, Bambi couldn't wish for a better "metamour", because Tizza stood up for him when I resented him. I want to open up conversation about the Tizza-matter with Bambi (and communication in general), I do not want to resent anymore, I want to work towards a solution for all three of us, but I don't know how to communicate my thoughts about relationships without Bambi getting angry at me at this point. Any thoughts?
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Old 10-20-2013, 11:24 PM
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Emm Emm is offline
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Bambi sounds like a petulant five year old. He won't tell you what the rules are, but will get angry when you break them. When he does give you some indication of what he wants he then changes his mind without warning and gets angry with you when you step over a line that wasn't there last time you checked. When you try to find out where that line is he sulks and refuses to talk, presumably until you give him a lollypop.

He's the one who has hurt three people, not you. If that's the type of relationship you want then you can choose to live with it, but I sure as hell wouldn't.
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Old 10-21-2013, 01:02 AM
bookbug bookbug is offline
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Not being able to communicate would be a dealbreaker for me. Not just because of Tizza. Is Bambi going to expect you to read his mind, not clarify, give you the silent treatment to get his way over really important stuff like children, handling a severe illness, death of a parent, etc.?

It is hard for me to give advice because my SO and I discuss everything - even when it makes us uncomfortable - especially when it makes us uncomfortable.

All of that said, the only avenue that might get a different result, although I honestly doubt it, would be to write your thoughts down and let him read them. Maybe that wouldn't seem so confrontational to him.

The reason I doubt this will work is because Bambi wants to have his way, and he doesn't really give a damn if you're unhappy about it. In fact your unhappiness is just another personal affront to him. A sign that he isn't getting his way.

I'm sorry. I know you love the guy and my words are harsh. But don't expect him to change; he isn't going to.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pienata View Post
it isn't necessarily so that Bambi gave his blessing for me having a relationship with Tizza; technically, we have an open relationship but actual polyamory was not discussed.

I saw Tizza a few more times before I told Bambi we were really more than just friends.

At this point I'm still in touch with Tizza by phone/text, without Bambi's knowing
You have demonstrated a pattern of dishonesty, and Bambi has clearly displayed a pattern of non-communication/irrational pouting.

None of us know the day to day ins and outs of your relationship with Bambi, but what you have described makes me think that you (and Bambi, not that it matters) have a WHOLE LOT of growing up to do. This is a high-school relationship in which lying and pouting are the order of the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pienata View Post
I want to work towards a solution for all three of us, but I don't know how to communicate my thoughts about relationships without Bambi getting angry at me at this point. Any thoughts?
Not really. You and Bambi sound like you have perfectly competing personality defects and you would each need to INDIVIDUALLY work on them successfully in order for the two of you to be in a healthy relationship. Try therapy (not couples therapy, actual therapy), do lots of reading on communication and honesty... and hope that Bambi wants to do the same (I can save you some time: He doesn't).
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Old 10-21-2013, 05:59 AM
london london is offline
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I agree with Marcus. You are in no way ready for healthy poly relationships because you lie and deceive your partner(s). The other guy seems more compatible with you as he seems accepting of polyamory. The guy you want to build a life with seems incompatible, especially since you seemingly have no respect for him and lie to him whenever it's convenient. With those types of principles, would any relationship of yours be healthy? Go away, learn to be a better person, then decide what relationship type is appropriate for you. Once you know you aren't going around hurting people.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:15 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default I don't think you are dishonest

at least not if you fully disclose the truth. Everyone tells white lies, being honest is a practice and it takes practice to do it as perfectly as humanly possible. We all make mistakes, it is what you do after the fact that counts. But remember being sorry means a willingness to change the behavior

It does sound like you made drastic changes in regards to your interactions with Tizza, but you might want to inform Bambi that he is not going to like the outcome of not allowing you to ask questions or want to discuss the reasons for the directions you two are deciding to go in your life. A good debater can always win a debate, but he cannot do it by employing truth, the key to be a good salesman is always maintaining control of the sales discussion.

If you boyfriend is a convincing salesman, you have to be assertive. Poly isn't the end all be all holy grail of the best relationships, but if you know you desire to have polyamorous relationships, it doesn't sound like Bambi wants that.

I don't see any major hurdles for you and Tizza, but keep in mind that NRE can be tricky, as their is a difference between serial monogamous relationships with significant overlap between partners, and polyamory.

I believe it's good to go into a holding pattern to make poly doable with a partner in order to make the transition, although you can't just hold off forever, and it does sound like that may be Bambi's plan.

A lot of times people claim to give polyamory a serious try, but often they are only willing to use it to their advantage and the second it isn't (to their advantage) they can't do it. The other disingenuous attempts are just them not telling you that they can't see themselves as polyamorists and if that is the case it would make things a lot easier on their partner if they just said so

the problem is many people don't know what they want in life, they have never seriously given it any honest thought other than to subscribe to denial and lies, in which case they might be a totally different person altogether if they ever decide to live a bit more genuinely

A good place to start, is the next time he says "do we have to talk about so and so again!!??"

just say yes, because you need to be honest with each other and by not talking about it he may be under a false impression. But rather than feel guilty about still emailing him, just tell him, because I guarantee you he is intentionally misleading you by not telling something.

I mean going off of what you've shared here with us readers

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 10-22-2013 at 08:18 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:16 AM
Pienata Pienata is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
You have demonstrated a pattern of dishonesty, and Bambi has clearly displayed a pattern of non-communication/irrational pouting.

None of us know the day to day ins and outs of your relationship with Bambi, but what you have described makes me think that you (and Bambi, not that it matters) have a WHOLE LOT of growing up to do. This is a high-school relationship in which lying and pouting are the order of the day.



Not really. You and Bambi sound like you have perfectly competing personality defects and you would each need to INDIVIDUALLY work on them successfully in order for the two of you to be in a healthy relationship. Try therapy (not couples therapy, actual therapy), do lots of reading on communication and honesty... and hope that Bambi wants to do the same (I can save you some time: He doesn't).
I agree with you that it was wrong not to tell him immediately, but Bambi wasn't at all bothered with that (since he's not much of a talker I tend to receive information with a delay as well, I don't really mind either), it was mostly me feeling guilty about it. People make mistakes, I realise this was one of them and told the truth. Afterwards everything was fine, so no big deal there. I'd like to move on from there and be better for it. The same goes for london. I'm sorry, people make mistakes, I'm sure both of you did too and I'm trying to learn.

I'm just going to move on here, I had a more elaborate reply in mind for you yesterday but some things changed since (I talked to Bambi) so I'll just elaborate on that (and answer Dirtclustit wherever relevant)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirtclustit View Post
A good place to start, is the next time he says "do we have to talk about so and so again!!??"

just say yes, because you need to be honest with each other and by not talking about it he may be under a false impression.
I have said yes multiple times over the past one-and-a-half months, which usually results in me talking and him staring blankly at.. Wherever. I try to ask a lot of questions to stimulate him to talk as well, but he often just shrugs or says "I don't know". He was most definitely under a false impression because I didn't just want to keep a monologue on what I wanted things with Tizza to be, I wanted to discuss it together. Because of his reluctance to answer anything I didn't get much further into what I wanted to say either. After long "talks" of me trying to get him to share any kind of feeling and him not sharing at all, he'd usually get very annoyed, because "we'd been at it for so long and he was tired of it". I tend to drop it at these moments because trying to force him to do something he doesn't want to do for over two hours is probably not going to make him more likely to talk.

Yesterday morning I tried to talk to him again, after keeping my mouth shut about it for the entire week. In bed I asked, calmly and nicely, if we could maybe talk somewhere today because I felt some things were still not resolved. He snapped at me instantly, I got a very defensive reaction. I know he doesn't respond well to over-emotional responses from me so I tried to keep my cool (even though this reaction symbolized everything that was wrong for me) and asked him: "Why is it so bad if I want to talk?" and he said "because it means something's wrong." I said that it's great if nothing's wrong, of course, but life doesn't work that way and if we were to spend the next 60 years together, sometimes there will be something wrong. I said it was much easier to just accept that and try to work it out together without giving the fact that "something's wrong" so much weight.

He stayed grumpy and frowned and said "okay, well, what do you want to talk about." I answered that the most pressing matter to me was that I felt he wasn't communicating with me, as demonstrated by what happened with the Tizza-matter, where I was surprised by his asking me to stop paying attention to Tizza, at least for a while (this was two weeks ago by now). I said I wanted to talk about him telling me what's wrong earlier, because now he's hurt (because I unknowingly went too far), I'm hurt (because I can't see Tizza) and I can't speak for Tizza that much but I assume that he's probably at least slightly hurt (though he keeps his cool nicely).

Well, we actually had a long talk of about five hours, with good parts in it, where he actually talked to me instead of just sitting and waiting till I give up. There were very, very bad parts too. I'll try to summarise five hours of heightened emotions as accurately and objectively as I possibly can. Anyone reading this is encouraged to read between the lines of my personal subjectiveness, as it is probably impossible to completely eliminate.

Summary of conversation with Bambi
Well, it started out pretty rough, with Bambi already responding angrily at me for even suggesting a talk, and even though he accepted that he had to do this AGAIN, he didn't say much at first. I decided to just ignore the fact that he wasn't very responsive and had a monologue about how I felt that lack of communication was tearing us apart. Since he usually claims he just doesn't have enough time to think during conversation and therefore barely says anything, I suggested that I'd leave him with what I just said for about half an hour and take a stroll myself. He replied that he had no idea what he was supposed to think about and what I expected from him (clearly my train of thought isn't as logical to him as it is to me, haha). I summarised it saying I would appreciate it if he thought about why communicating is not working, how we could improve it, and any other thoughts he might have.

I hoped that my stroll around the block was also time for me to calm down, I was still slightly startled from his initial response to my request to talk and I didn't want to break down into emotional frenzy. When I got back, I sat down next to him on the couch, and he got up and made himself tea and started sweeping the floor (evasive much?). I told him I was not going to start talking again because I wanted him to say something now. He dubbed that as passive-aggressive, and my tone might not have been as nice as I hoped. I replied that I was sorry and that I really just wanted to hear his view.

He said: "You asked me this last week and I don't know. I'm not a psychologist, I can't tell you my reluctance to talk is due to that time when I was 6 years old and a clown scared me or something like that. I just can't, and if you don't realise I'm kind of closed by now..."

At this point I felt hope for us plummet quite badly. "I just can't" sounds to me as "I'm not willing to try." When I asked last week I had to settle for "Well, I could never talk, my mom can't either and I'm an Aquarius, what can you do?" (which is the worst reason I have ever heard not to improve on yourself, blaming it on every other factor outside yourself) I love Bambi a whole lot, and this is literally our only problem, but I felt that I didn't want to be the only one trying to fix anything. It made me very sad, and I said, "well, if my only option is to just deal with it, I can't. I can only conclude that we're maybe not as right for eachother as we thought."

I'm not sure it's a good or a bad thing that I said what I said. I really don't like to threaten with breaking up, I believe it makes people do things they wouldn't ordinarily do out of fear rather than actually believing in it. Bambi broke down and went to cry on the bed. He sobbed that I was the best thing that ever happened to him and he already felt like I was with one foot out of the door all week. He claimed that he was right all along to react as defensively to talking because I just wanted to break up with him anyway. I feel it's exactly the other way around; his defensive reaction to open and honest conversation lead me to saying this.

The good thing to all this; afterwards, when I said I didn't necessarily want to leave (but felt I had to if nothing changed), he did open up to me more than he ever did. The downside is that he doesn't truly believe I want to be with him now.

The reason he thought I was going to break up with him all week, was because after our argument last week I said I wanted to go to my place to study because I have exams this week and couldn't focus. (We technically live together at his place, but I still have my own room because the apartment we live in is only temporarily for rent, until march, and it can be very hard to find living space in Amsterdam for our financial situation; we're not poor enough for social housing and not rich enough for private rentals, oh, and he doesn't have a permanent contract). So, I have most of my stuff here but I wanted to pack some of it and go to my place to study the past week. I didn't do it because he already felt so insecure since the arguments about Tizza (big mistake, I didn't focus on my studies at all now..) Other than that he did not really have any reason to believe I'd leave him, because I'd shown lots of love all the time.

Post was too long so posting another one
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