Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Poly Relationships Corner

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-15-2013, 08:36 PM
Murasaki's Avatar
Murasaki Murasaki is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 59
Default

Marcus I didn't feel like quoting anyone else, so I'm admitting up front to being lazy. And since I do disagree with some of what you are saying, (mostly based on MY PERCEPTION of the OP's posts) I decided to share at least that much of my thoughts today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The question should be raised, is the irritation commensurate with the crime?
The amount of irritation would depend on a few factors for me. One how late were they> Did I attempt to get in contact, and get no reply? When the late party arrives, is a reasonable explanation given (sorry I was driving, and was hurrying home so didn't stop on the way)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
For the cheap seats, all I'm suggesting is to keep things in perspective and to be honest about the nature of the agitation and seeming need to be given regular updates.
It doesn't seem to me as if anyone is asking for regular updates. Just that they want to know you are running later then you intended. And this is wanted due to your stated time of arrival.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
So again, all I'm saying is that people should check their motivations when they get annoyed by people being late. Is the principle of "you said 8 and it's 8:15" really worth the irritation if there was no harm or delay caused? Is it even relevant in the grand scheme of things? I say... not remotely.
I can't speak for anyone else, but in my case if you are say 20mins late, I assume traffic was heavy, or some other traffic issue, an un-expected detour what ever. A few hours? Maybe, depends on the explanation. "I was in a loud venue, lost track of time, can't hear the phone". But to follow several ours of late with an "its not my fault" To me sounds like a whiny child. It feels like the "late" party needs to grow up and take some responsibility.

When I went out to a swingers club I told Kuroi WHEN I would be home by. WHEN I realized I wouldn't be home by that Time I sent a "still here. not leaving yet, having a good time" message. Actually sent the message a few mins before I PLANNED to be home and the venue is at least 30 mins away from home. I did not have any specific plans laid out, but Kuroi was expecting me home at the reasonable hour of 1 am because I SAID I WOULD BE.

If I can't keep my word/promises on SMALL things how can I expect other people to trust that I will keep my word/promise on the bigger things.

For example the "friend" I went to the swingers club with. That friend is used to the people in their circle not being true to there word. So becoming friends with me is a refreshingly pleasant change. I was told that my friend was glad that I keep my word like I do. That it means we can make solid plans and nothing gets dropped. (for one) It also means this friend can rely on me in ways they can't rely on other people in their life.

<disclaimer: My mood right now is not the best or even close to happy/neutral. So my perceived tone may be more negative than actually intended.>
__________________
Me - Murasaki - Bi/pan
LTR SO - Kuroi - Straight (broken up-not sure what we are now)
Child of Murasaki & Kuroi - Momoiroi

In LTR of 20 years, married for 13 years to Kuroi
Didn't realize we had a poly type relationship in High school. Exploring poly again now that our Child is older.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-15-2013, 09:21 PM
Marcus's Avatar
Marcus Marcus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Haltom City, TX
Posts: 1,063
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murasaki View Post
Marcus I didn't feel like quoting anyone else, so I'm admitting up front to being lazy. And since I do disagree with some of what you are saying, (mostly based on MY PERCEPTION of the OP's posts) I decided to share at least that much of my thoughts today.
I don't post on these boards without being emotionally prepared for people to not only disagree, but be ripping pissed off at me for having the audacity to disagree with them.

So, all good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murasaki View Post
The amount of irritation would depend on a few factors for me. One how late were they> Did I attempt to get in contact, and get no reply? When the late party arrives, is a reasonable explanation given (sorry I was driving, and was hurrying home so didn't stop on the way)?
The interesting thing about your post and those before you is... no one seems to be irritated about the actual impact of someone being late. The only thing I've seen presented is simply "nuh uh, you said X and you did Y... therefore nuh uh!!"

Again, I am making a distinction between someone causing harm or delay by being late and someone merely rupturing the purely imaginary world of "but it's just right" by being later than they said.

Being delayed and injured is different from being intellectually "injured" by not perfectly abiding by an arbitrary and irrelevant rule.

I'll stop repeating it because it seems that this is one of those issues in which myself and all other posters need to disagree on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murasaki View Post
If I can't keep my word/promises on SMALL things how can I expect other people to trust that I will keep my word/promise on the bigger things.
Ok... wait... If someone accidentally and lightly bumps someone in line in the grocery store and doesn't apologize this means that they are ... what... likely to murder even though they said they wouldn't?

How does this support the topic at hand exactly? This is what is called a slippery slope argument which would *seem* to support the assertion but merely opens a can of worms entirely unrelated to the topic at hand in attempt to make it seem more severe.
__________________
Independent (Anarchist) Non-Monogamy

Me: male, 40, straight, single
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-15-2013, 09:33 PM
YouAreHere's Avatar
YouAreHere YouAreHere is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: SoNH
Posts: 650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The interesting thing about your post and those before you is... no one seems to be irritated about the actual impact of someone being late. The only thing I've seen presented is simply "nuh uh, you said X and you did Y... therefore nuh uh!!"
I had a friend in college who was notorious for telling us he'd be in <x> place at <y> time and not follow through. Once, to the point where a friend of his from work met the rest of us at the agreed-upon time and place with this guy nowhere to be found. Found him at the destination and he shrugged and said, "Well, this is where we were going anyway."

I never made plans with him again after that.

To me, it's courtesy. If you don't want to say when you'll be back, just say you may be out all night. If you give me a time, and then disregard it, why even say it at all? To mollify me? Not gonna work if you're just going to lie about it anyway.

I would get irritated if someone felt they had to tell me something, then completely disregard it. If we're going to agree upon something, then honor it. If you don't want to tell me what you REALLY want to do, well, that's telling in and of itself, and maybe we have a deeper-seated issue.

And, after re-reading this last paragraph, I have no idea if I'm actually agreeing with you or not, Marcus. I think I need to go home.

(And yes, I've been there, done that, so I'm not trying to be hoity-toity about it. Avoidance behavior sucks, and it's difficult to un-learn, but I think I'm getting there.)
__________________
Dramatis personae:
Me: Mono, in an LTR with Chops
Chops (previously known as 'P'): partner and best friend. Poly. In LTRs with me and Xena, and dating Noa.
Xena (previously known as M1): My metamour, Poly. Also in an LTR with Chops. Dating Noa and some others.
Noa (previously AG): Dating Chops and Xena (individually).

My navel-gazing blog thread:
A Mono's Journey Into Poly-Land (or, "Aw hell, there's no road map?!")
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-15-2013, 09:42 PM
Marcus's Avatar
Marcus Marcus is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Haltom City, TX
Posts: 1,063
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YouAreHere View Post
To me, it's courtesy. If you don't want to say when you'll be back, just say you may be out all night. If you give me a time, and then disregard it, why even say it at all? To mollify me? Not gonna work if you're just going to lie about it anyway.
Again, this is not a black and white discussion but should be a situation by situation issue.

I also have a buddy who is NOTORIOUS for not showing up, showing up late, or showing up randomly. This is not something I admire and it is, in fact, a personality trait which is frowned upon by our crew. The result of this pattern of behavior is that he is no longer included in our regular get togethers and is not considered even when he IS invited. But... BUT!!! this is because he was hindering us... we were waiting on him... we planned on his presence at the party.... not simply because "CLOCKS ARE VERY IMPORTANT FOR NO APPARENT REASON"

This is a pattern of behavior which suggests that this person doesn't care about what is being planned, nor the impact he is having on other people, and should be addressed accordingly. This is also a situation which I don't feel relates to the OP discussion...
__________________
Independent (Anarchist) Non-Monogamy

Me: male, 40, straight, single
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:22 AM
WhatHappened WhatHappened is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Again, I am making a distinction between someone causing harm or delay by being late and someone merely rupturing the purely imaginary world of "but it's just right" by being later than they said.
If someone habitually does not keep their word, that harms the relationship. It damages other people's ability to trust, and rely on, what they say.

If you don't find this harmful, then I guess you'd have no issue with someone repeatedly failing to follow through on what they said. Others do have a problem with it.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-16-2013, 01:23 AM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 30
Default

Marcus,

We appear very different, but in reality I don't think we're as far apart as it seems (at least on some things!). I do enjoy your postings. They have exposed me to a different perspective and assisted me in thinking through some things. Anyway, going between your post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Again, this is not a black and white discussion but should be a situation by situation issue.
I agree it should be situational. But who determines if the situation warrants getting upset or irritated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
But... BUT!!! this is because he was hindering us... we were waiting on him... we planned on his presence at the party.... not simply because "CLOCKS ARE VERY IMPORTANT FOR NO APPARENT REASON"
So being late is only a problem if it causes a hindrance to the person or people waiting on the late individual? It's not about the clock being so important. It's about knowing that someone will keep his/her word. Like your crew did, if someone is continually late, I change the way I interact with him/her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
This is a pattern of behavior which suggests that this person doesn't care about what is being planned, nor the impact he is having on other people, and should be addressed accordingly.
I also agree with this. Though I get the feeling, and correct me if I'm wrong, that an "impact" for you is something tangible such as being late for an event and/or causing others to be late. And that is an impact, but the impact can also be intangible. My partner and I have limited time together and if *either* one of us is late, it impacts both of us, even if all we were planning was to eat in and watch a movie on DVD.

Of course, this goes back to the situation - there have been times when one of us was late. We also let the other know. I'm sure it will happen in the future and we'll handle it the same way. BUT, it's not a regular occurrence.
We each value and respect the others time AND we value and respect our time together.

So, it circles back to courtesy for me and taking someone at their word. Plus in my particular case, I would be quite worried if D was late and didn't call because his regular behavior is to be EARLY for everything.

Piper
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-16-2013, 02:02 AM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 30
Default

I'm not picking on you, Marcus! Just your posts are thought provoking and some of this made me a little...sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The only thing I've seen presented is simply "nuh uh, you said X and you did Y... therefore nuh uh!!"
What's wrong with expecting people to do what they say they are going to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Again, I am making a distinction between someone causing harm or delay by being late and someone merely rupturing the purely imaginary world of "but it's just right" by being later than they said.
Have we become so jaded and cynical that we've not only accepted that people won't keep their word, but we actively expect them not to and even make excuses for them or take the blame on ourselves when we're bothered by it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Being delayed and injured is different from being intellectually "injured" by not perfectly abiding by an arbitrary and irrelevant rule.
It's not the fact that an arbitrary or irrelevant "rule" has been broken or that someone has been injured - "real" or intellectually - that so many people have a problem with.

It's the fact of saying X and then doing Y. This action that isn't important to you, unless it causes tangible "injury", is the very action that is important to many people. Can I trust this person to do what they say they are going to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
I'll stop repeating it because it seems that this is one of those issues in which myself and all other posters need to disagree on.
That may be true in this case... I do my best to be a realist. I do have a cynical streak, though it's tempered by my, perhaps naive, desire to see the best in people and give them the benefit of the doubt. I know that people don't always keep their word and we all make mistakes. I certainly don't expect perfection as I can't give it. But, I do expect honesty and respect.

Piper
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-16-2013, 07:27 AM
london london is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: UK - land of the free
Posts: 1,416
Default

There is a difference between someone saying that they will definitely be back for a particular thing they are doing with you and a rough expectation of when they suppose they will be back. You aren't injured if your partner is later home than they thought, you should be having your own life. Not sat around clock watching. Let go. Really. They arent solemnly swearing that they will be back at eight, just reckoning. Using their reckoning to judge them on a wider scale is very rigid and unfair. Judge them when they promise something, actually give their word, not just say in passing what their plans are. You don't own anyone except for yourself, let people breathe without you imagining that they have slighted you by doing something without you. They are only escaping your control.

Last edited by london; 10-16-2013 at 07:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-16-2013, 08:17 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Middle of Oregon
Posts: 431
Default

Quote:
Again, this is not a black and white discussion but should be a situation by situation issue.
In regards to the OP, it is pretty much black and white, I know from your point of view you seem to believe she is overeacting, making mountains out of molehills, but from what I read, she explicitly stated is really is no big deal, she admitted it hurt when she spoke up and her concern was dismissed and he explained how despite what she feels, it really isn't a problem.

To me, from what I've read, it sounds like that essentially is what the post is about. She tried bringing up her concerns, they were invalid, so now she is wondering if this phenomena is going to be the cause for much bigger problems in the future

I understand that you are just squabbling and bickering with all the other people commenting on this post, that at this point it is less about your advice for her to listen to her boyfriend and understand that the real problem is some underlying insecurity that she is in denial about (which to be honest just sounds like her real problem echoing back again) so hopefully the OP understands that the issue you are bickering about may not be black and white, but hopefully she won't be listen to this nonsense and honestly subscribe to it.

Because when things are black and white, but the person is convinced that is not the case by those around them whom they are supposed to able to trust, it can be a lot to deal with emotionally, because if you believe the rational sounding distortions, it can be quite crazy making. And nobody should have to put up with that shit.

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 10-16-2013 at 08:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-16-2013, 11:45 AM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by london View Post
There is a difference between someone saying that they will definitely be back for a particular thing they are doing with you and a rough expectation of when they suppose they will be back. You aren't injured if your partner is later home than they thought, you should be having your own life. Not sat around clock watching. Let go. Really. They arent solemnly swearing that they will be back at eight, just reckoning. Using their reckoning to judge them on a wider scale is very rigid and unfair. Judge them when they promise something, actually give their word, not just say in passing what their plans are. You don't own anyone except for yourself, let people breathe without you imagining that they have slighted you by doing something without you. They are only escaping your control.
I'm going to respond to this and then step back as we're going in circles and have really gotten away from the OP's original question.

It goes back to this concept for me: say what you mean and mean what you say. There is a difference in saying "I'll be home around 8" versus "I'll be home at 8".

I have no desire to control nor own anyone but myself so if you're not sure what time you'll be somewhere that's fine - just say that.

No one has addressed this question posed by several posters: WHY give a time at all if you don't intend to be present at that time? Or if you're not sure what time you'll be there?

And it's a huge assumption that I'm sitting around the house, staring at the clock, waiting for my partner and feeling "slighted" because he is doing something without me. None of which is true.

I don't live with him and we have limited available time together, so we always have to plan when and where we're getting together. Like I said in a previous post, if either of us are late, it effects both of us. I might feel slighted if he's late for our PLANNED date, depending on the circumstances. And I would feel slighted if he was late on a regular, consistent basis for our dates, especially if he didn't call.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:01 AM.