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  #21  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:12 PM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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Kevin, yes, that is pretty much the sum of things in a nutshell. I don't expect anything to change as far as MW's attitude, and the nature of who she is, to change anytime in the near future. But I think at the very least I can put the ideas out there and give her time to think about them.

Concerning the trip we are planning, I am fully aware that we will probably go on it as friends. We have taken a number of trips together over the years and things have been very enjoyable just enjoying each other's company. We have always been friends and even if things don't work out I feel confident that we will continue to be so. When we married our spouses we knew they had been friends for a very long time and I like to think that she respects the bond our husbands have as much as I do.

It seems slow and difficult will be the nature of my journey. Honestly, even though it will be, I feel that it is worth it no matter what. I love BF very much and if things don't work out the way I hope, I still feel like I need him in my life. He was a close friend of mine before he was my lover and I never want to lose that friendship.

Thanks for all the advice and support guys! It has helped me take a step back and get a more objective look at the situation.
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  #22  
Old 10-09-2013, 05:42 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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You are welcome. I hope our situation improves.

GL!
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  #23  
Old 10-09-2013, 10:39 PM
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Re (from Indygirl78):
Quote:
"Concerning the trip we are planning, I am fully aware that we will probably go on it as friends. We have taken a number of trips together over the years and things have been very enjoyable just enjoying each other's company. We have always been friends and even if things don't work out I feel confident that we will continue to be so. When we married our spouses we knew they had been friends for a very long time and I like to think that she respects the bond our husbands have as much as I do."
Ahem, well ... that was kind of my bad. I read part of your earlier post a bit hastily and didn't notice you were hoping for a *partial* solution, not a complete solution. Now, a partial solution may be accomplished in a matter of months. Possibly. It's the total solution that will take years (in my estimation).

I think it'd be great if MW would allow you and BF to have just a little more one-on-one time than she would have allowed in the past. Who knows, maybe she will. You can improve the odds of that by getting right to work on deeper communication with her (and remember the art of listening is the biggest part of that communication).

Another new visual has entered my mind since my last post. Given the considerable list of issues MW seems to have, it almost reads like a list of symptoms out of the emotional disorders book. It's conceivable that MW has some kind of emotional disorder, or even several disorders. Borderline personality disorder? Maybe, at least in part. Bipolar? OCD? PTSD? a bit of schizophrenia (which doesn't necessarily mean split personalities, it actually more tends to mean intense paranoia and perhaps voices in one's head or some such thing)? Who knows. This is all the more reason to get her into a counselor's (or psychiatrist's) office. You kind of need a well-trained professional to make a diagnosis here.

You know, she might actually have something that is largely treatable with medication. It could give her some relief, and it could give the rest of your quad some relief as well. A combination of meds and expert counseling could unlock some new doors for her. I know she doesn't want to see a counselor, but I would try to keep gently nudging her in that direction.

Her fear of leaving her comfort zone is probably your/her biggest obstacle. She can't get relief from the anxieties/insecurities she suffers from if she's not willing to try some new approaches, even if some of those approaches don't work. She needs to be able to subject herself to a certain amount of trial and error. I doubt she has a condition with a simple diagnosis.

Anyway, my sheepish apologies for any hasty words I posted, and I wish you the best on the trip you are planning and hope you will see a little progress in MW by then.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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  #24  
Old 10-10-2013, 12:16 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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With all the group socializing you four do together, you've never had a conversation about your relationship dynamics when it's all of you in one room? Gee whiz.

I think an intervention might help. Since she seems to really dig all this secrecy, you could secretly arrange to have a poly counselor show up at your next get-together and then all of you start talking and confront her!
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  #25  
Old 10-10-2013, 01:53 AM
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Some kind of intervention is probably needed. I don't know if a counselor would make a house call (pretty sure they wouldn't in Albuquerque), but if they do, by all means tap into that.

At the very least, the four of you should get together sometime with you, BH, and DH telling MW, "Honey, we're concerned about you and we really, really feel you need to see a psychiatrist or counselor." Could take turns talking with the "talking pillow" or something.
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2013, 02:04 AM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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Sadly that would probably piss her off more than sitting her down and telling her the entire truth of the situation.
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2013, 04:03 AM
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Hah, yeah interventions can do that sometimes.

Maybe "an intervention for telling her the entire truth of the situation" would be the first thing to contemplate, and then if/after the time ever comes right for that, start working toward the next intervention where you "ask her to see a doctor."

Obviously there's no point in telling her anything she's not ready to hear. "Strength in numbers" doesn't always fix a person's stubbornness; sometimes they just dig their heels in deeper and then reduce their amount of trust for the people who were trying to help them.

That leaves (all three of you) listening to whatever she has to say: listening patiently, without judgment. Who knows how long that stage will take; I don't think you can put a due-date on it. But someday, in the future, I believe she'll need a counselor. Preferrably a psychiatrist. It's tragic that she can't listen to that right now, because a psychiatrist could get her started on meds and that could supply her with a relief she never thought she could have.

I guess for the moment you just do the best you can coping with her misbehaviors. Offering praise for any little thing she does better might help encourage her to improve.
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  #28  
Old 10-10-2013, 05:51 AM
Dirtclustit Dirtclustit is offline
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Default I hate to say it because I don't like to be negative

but my personal experience with an uncanningly similar circumstance was not good.

however what you may want to try is approaching her in a fashion that is so gentle and understanding that it might make you sick to your stomach, as sometimes the only way to break through the defensiveness that they automatically go into -- even when you are in no way attacking them -- because usually there is a way to approach subjects with such that kind of person, you just having tried it being gentle enough

and if there wasn't a way that was gentle enough, the sexual aspect or "play" in the relationship would not pick up again after it was called off the second time

most people can be convinced that the all the negative feelings that are typically associated with not being honest to those you are supposed to genuinely care about -- and therefore not intentionally deceive or mislead -- that all those negative feelings are unnecessary and part of a greater misunderstanding about love and life that can actually be the root cause of not feeling satisfied and content

as in the type of person whose life could be the metaphorical type described as living their dreams without actually changing anything but the way their mind is framed

and if you are willingly to approach them so gently that you essentially need to pretend that you are the problem and they are in the right and it will be one of the hardest things you will ever do because you will have to hold back the feeling of screaming the truth to them at the first instance they get snide -- however -- sometimes that disgusting level of gentleness is only needed once and after that it's like they begin to see the light and it's all downhill from there (going downhill in a good way not falling apart)

if your lucky she will come around

but just know that some people never do, and then you will have to decide if they are worth pussy footing around and it doesn't take much before you find yourself resenting it and if you are not careful that resentment will spill over into other parts of your life that are completely innocent and do not deserve the shit that stems from the emotional babysitting so to speak

there is danger at that point because unless you are really paying attention and seriously are doing your best to practice honesty you will one day find you have caught the disease of denial, and you will have become one of those people who cannot own their own shit

in which case you would be much better off not being friends with them as it will likely affect you. That is just my view from how I interpreted my experience, yours is guaranteed to be somewhat different as you are not me, at least not that I know of, but is it getting late and I often type while half asleep although I am fairly certain I am not replying to one of my own posts because I only have one profile, that I know of anyway.

Last edited by Dirtclustit; 10-10-2013 at 06:02 AM. Reason: typo
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  #29  
Old 10-10-2013, 03:28 PM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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I'm making the first baby step today. I told BF that he needs to try to get her to open up to him about things. I asked him to start with the "swinging" activities and be firm about them. They definitely need to work on being able to talk about this stuff. As it is now he is so hesitant that he waits/hopes for her to say something (which of course is next to never). I asked him what's the worst that could happen if he brings it up and he replied that she would think that he would rather be with me. At least maybe then they could start communicating and working on insecurities.

I know this is a minuscule step in the much larger picture, but until they are able to communicate more openly between themselves we can't start to work on more open communication between her with the rest.
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  #30  
Old 10-10-2013, 03:51 PM
pulliman pulliman is offline
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I wish you the best of luck with all this. If BF can really truly say he doesn't want to be with you more than her, then he just needs to keep finding creative ways to say that, until she believes him, I guess. And not getting her defensive, as was pointed out earlier, can be really rough on the speaker (you or BF or DH, who also needs to speak up to MW about being open with you...).

It sounds like you're the odd person out in this conversation, for a moment. BF and DH have work to do, but you? You have to help with that work, maybe, and let the situation develop. Sounds really difficult. But it sounds like the right path, as I read what you write. Good luck!
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