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  #11  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:12 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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I note you do not answer with a plain yes/no. Let me ask plainer... Do you intend to take action? Or are you just thinking about it right now?
It's hard to advise when I do not know your intent at this time or what kind of support you seek. (Ex: thinking things out support or taking action support.)

In a nutshell? At this time? Stripped of the past details? This is where it seems to be TODAY:
  • You , DH, BF, and this woman engage in swinger sex sometimes.
  • You and BF used to date too, but the wife asked it to stop. She didn't want dating, she only wanted swinging -- casual recreational sex. You all agree to stop.
  • A year later? You and BF break that agreement. You and BF are dating without her knowledge right now. Just your DH's. So you and BF seem to be having a cheating affair with your DH's enabling.
  • DH also dates the woman being cheated on right now. You, BF, and DH let her believe she's having an cheating affair with your DH -- really you all know. But SHE believes she's having a secret thing with your DH though.
  • All of you are lying to each other about one thing or another.
    • She lies about her cheating affair with your DH.
    • You and BF and DH do lies of omission -- because you pretend you don't know but all really know about (her + your DH )
    • You and BF and DH lie about (you + BF) dating and your own cheating affair.
  • You state you are all friends.
  • You state you are tired of lies and want to be open/honest.

These behaviors are "friendly" behavior how?

These behaviors are "open and honest" how?

You state you DO NOT LIKE the current state of affairs.

Quote:
I don't like how things can't be more open with her. I don't like that it makes it so I'm having an affair with her husband and she with mine. And of course we are all betraying her because we can't tell her we all know.
You choose to participate in a cheating affair. Are you willing to STOP? Are you willing to expect more from yourself?

What stops you from telling her? Fear of her reaction? Something else?

If you want to help her become more secure - what are you willing to do?
  • Are you willing to tell her it is ok to date your hubby openly?
  • Are you willing to stop seeing her husband in secret?

If you want to be open and honest about the rest -- What are you willing to do in that area so you can be free of lies?
  • Are you willing to come clean about your own cheating affair?
  • Are you willing to apologize and ask for a chance to make amends?
  • Are you willing to stop dating the BF under these cheating conditions?

Because right now? It seems like you mostly wanted to vent that you don't get to date the BF openly. Well...
  • Could stop dating him clandestinely!
  • Could apologize to wife for the cheating start. Reveal you know about her affair with your DH.
  • Could stop sharing swinger sex until this all gets sorted out.
  • Could arrange for everyone talk in a group -- YES. Even if it it feels yucky and uncomfortable.
  • Could start over on a clean slate if all players are willing -- and date each other openly and honestly.

It may be hard to FEEL, but the actions seem straightforward enough. Are you willing to do any/all of those things at this time? Or not yet?

You do not seem willing to be assertive and face conflict resolution straight up at this time. From your story, most of the players are very avoid style in their conflict resolution.

I just don't see how this can continue on a good path -- everyone avoiding reality.

Sooner or later it will come out and THEN what?

If you are at contemplation stage, could finishing thinking then. Then determine what you are willing/not willing to do as you move on to the next stage of change.

Everyone could own their own baggage here. You can do this.

But you do not seem ready to take action at this time. I could be wrong. Are you at contemplation stage only or moving on to the next part -- you intend to take action and want to prepare?
Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-08-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:40 PM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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Galagirl, yes, as scandalous as that all sounds it is pretty much the current situation. And yes we are actually friends though I will say that I doubt under other situations she and I would be more than friendly acquaintances due to our different personalities.

Here's the thing. This has been an on and off thing for at least the past five years. Sometimes she says it's what she wants and other times not. And I have stopped seeing BF in the past when she has said she's not comfortable with it. Though we did not this most recent time. So, yes, essentially it's an affair that my DH knows about. She tells my DH she loves him and wants to see him, but is not comfortable with it being out in the open. I don't know why.

I honestly don't know what would happen if we all say down and had that conversation. My guess is she would be beyond pissed and shut down. She would avoid us the best she could and she would put him in the dog house. I don't believe she would leave him. She works with my DH, so she would still have to see him. My guess is she would see it as all my fault. This was not something I pursued, but yes, it is something that I've continued doing.

Given the information about her personality. What would be the best way to try to bring things out? And I honestly don't know if I would be willing to tell her the extent of the past. I don't know. Maybe this is entirely the wrong forum for me to be in. I want one thing, but maybe things have gotten to the point where there is no way to make it work.

I am looking for suggestions on remedying the situation with hopes of it moving forward in a more positive direction.

Last edited by Indygirl78; 10-08-2013 at 02:48 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-08-2013, 02:43 PM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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And I guess I am just thinking about action right now. I haven't the slightest idea how to go about this conversation without it directly affecting the dynamics between all involved.
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  #14  
Old 10-08-2013, 03:58 PM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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And Galagirl, are you by any chance a therapist? I love how straight forward you are at analyzing the situation and offering a concise summation of things. It sounds crazy, but even though at first your above post made me feel awful, upon re-reading it I appreciate your candor and I feel it's given me a lot to think about.

I know most of what I've posted thus far has been a jumble of thoughts and it's been cathartic for me just getting every thing out there somewhere (even if it is an anonymous forum), but I feel it's a good first step in analyzing myself.

I feel that I need to have a serious conversation with BF and DH about ways to resolve this issue. I don't know what the future holds for is, but I am forever grateful for the way you lay things out in a very logical fashion for me.
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  #15  
Old 10-08-2013, 04:20 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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No, I am not a therapist. I do prefer NVC for my communication. Makes a lot of things, not just polyshipping, easier to deal with (for me).

I'm glad you can tell my intent is not to hurt you. I truly am trying to offer you some of the support you asked for, but it's hard to help when I don't know what ball park you are aiming for or what your need is.

To me you seemed like you were not sure if you were contemplating only or preparing to take action or what.

Now you seem to say that you are weighing out the pros and cons of moving toward "open and honest" like you want. But fear/anxiety about how it might play out when it comes to "taking action" time -- it's clouding your ability in the thinking time. You acknowledge you could serious conversation with BF and DH about ways to resolve this issue. Maybe you do that first. Before you have a conversation with all of you. That has to happen at some point -- her being brought up to speed. If the goal is to end lies, she can't be kept in the dark!

Well, just think for now. Could remind yourself you are not acting at this time. You are only thinking. There's not need to crank your own self up with anxieties or whatever. You have enough problems. No need to ADD more, right? Breathe, and take it one thing at a time.

Let's try that on for size then. Only thinking it out.

Say you tell. And she shuts down. This will be bad because....
  • She would be beyond pissed and shut down.
  • She would avoid us the best she could.
  • She would put (my DH) in the dog house. I don't believe she would leave him. She works with my DH, so she would still have to see him.
  • She will blame me and say it is all my fault.
  • This was not something I pursued, but yes, it is something that I've continued doing.

Could take it one at a time then if all in a lump is too overwhelming. Do one today and another one tomorrow.
  • Her being pissed and shut down makes it hard for me. Because then I would have to ____?
  • Her avoiding me and DH makes it hard for me. Because then I would have to ____?

  • Her putting DH in the dog house makes it hard for me. Because then I would have to ____?
  • Her blameshifting on to just me is hard for me. Because then I would have to ____?
  • Continuing to participate in this (though I did not pursue or initiate it)in a way that is less than honest is hard for me. Because then I would have to ____?

And every time you answer with a sentence, tack it on AGAIN. "What about THAT makes it hard? Because then I would have to ____?"

When you can go no deeper, what do you get? In each of those mini areas of the bigger problem?


Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-08-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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  #16  
Old 10-08-2013, 04:46 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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Your other stuff...


Quote:
Given the information about her personality. What would be the best way to try to bring things out?
I would shelve this til later. You are still working on getting firm of purpose in yourself first. Then IDENTIFYING all the problem areas.

So this question comes later in the process to me.
  • I am thinking about telling. <-- you are here.
  • I am going to tell. Definitely. No matter what it takes or costs me. I am resolute!
  • HOW am I going to tell her? <--- this would be skipping ahead.

Quote:
I am looking for suggestions on remedying the situation with hopes of it moving forward in a more positive direction.
Here is a possible generic template. Up to you if you want to use that or make up your own:
  • Overall Mission: "Be Open and Honest." (Orange for partial because all things under are not all green. )
    • I know the mission. I agree to uphold this mission. <-- seems to be a check in your column for part of it anyway.
    • All my partners know the mission and agree to uphold this mission. <-- not green all the way yet though. At some point you have to ask if each of them want this too.
    .
  • Goals: (to support the mission?)<---- You are not here yet. But you could think out one step ahead. Before you can go here for real, the Mission must be all green. All players not on board with the mission? This trip doesn't fly. Have to work out the new mission all can play by and agree to or disband. You have already tried it out wonky and you don't like it.
    • I know what the goals are. I agree to work to achieve them.
    • All my partners know what they are. They all agree to work to achieve them.
    The baby goals to help support our mission of "Open and Honest" are...
    • I am no longer in a cheating affair
    • DH is no longer in a cheating affair
    • BF is not in a cheating affair
    • The wife (your meta) is not in a cheating affair.
    • All are free from lying behavior from YOU.
    • All are free from lying behavior from BF
    • All are free from lying behavior from DH
    • All are free from lying behavior from the wife
    • I do/do not continue swinger sex with this couple.
    • DH does/does not continue swinger sex with this couple.
    • I do/do not date the BF openly.
    • DH does/does not date the woman openly.
    • Something else? (That I did not think of you want to put in this slot?)
    • Some mix and match of the above?
    • ALL of the above?

    Could you be willing to define "negative direction" also?

    Because it takes BOTH. You have enough on your plate.

    So could stop the behaviors that ADD to the problems. (That stops any NEW crap from piling in!)

    Then you have to start shoveling the crap that is already here. TAKE AWAY from the problems. Change behaviors that help with that.

    You don't get to have fresh air and enjoy "open and honest" til both things are attended to.
  • Behavior Objectives to support the goals? <-- This is 2 steps ahead. You can't meet behavior objectives and decide WHO DOES WHAT PART to achieve the goals without knowing what the goals are.
  • I know what the objectives are. I agree to do my share. (List what my share is)
  • All my partners know what they are and agree to do each of their shares. (Lists for each person)
  • All of us know who owns what behavior. Who will do/not do X. We know how we hold each other accountable.
  • All are prepared to work on our individual behaviors and group behaviors
  • We all know how to measure progress as we work through it.
But there is no escaping the fact that what you do can and does affect the other players. It's the polymath. It exists even in swinging -- on the most basic level? Who you share sex with can and does affect you and your other sex partners and their sex healths. Right now? YOU are being affected by your own behavior and the behavior of your partners. Result: You feel yucky with the lies.

Could change that then. Change some behaviors and see if you start to feel better over time.

BREATHE.

Just take it one thing at a time. You sound like you started out swinging and want to end up in a polyship. Well... break it down. One thing at a time. Get yourself back to "neutral" first -- and heal from all the affairs. Then see how it could unfold with this couple. I don't think you can leap from negative to positive just like that. It's going to take some effort and working through steps in between. Keep your expectations real.

Getting a show of hands for "I would like to be open and honest with my friends and lovers. Who is with me?"

Sooner or later, that has to be asked by you. They aren't exactly beating down the doors to ask it themselves. SOMEBODY has to be first.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-08-2013 at 08:10 PM.
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  #17  
Old 10-08-2013, 06:04 PM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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Galagirl, again, thank you so much for the above posts. You have given me so much to think about. I definitely need to do some serious thinking about how I want to proceed. I really do want a poly situation with all involved, as I feel BF does as well. My DH (from conversations is perfectly fine keeping it as a swing relationship, but is open to more). And finally I think we all need to find a way to figure out what MW wants. At this point in time I doubt she even knows herself.

I have a lot to think about. More than anything I want things to work with them. We have tried starting relationships with others (during a break from seeing this couple sexually) and while DH does well with it, I have not been satisfied. Sure, I have fun, I meet people I feel I could be friends with, but I've felt like I'm missing chemistry that I felt with BF. This is what lead me to open things back up to the swinging with them.

Maybe it is time to take a break and when/if the situation is brought up we can have a sit down to discuss what we all want. I'm just throwing this all out there/more thinking out loud right now.

I believe I just have a lot of thinking to do.
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  #18  
Old 10-08-2013, 06:52 PM
GalaGirl GalaGirl is offline
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You are welcome. I'm glad it helped organize your thoughts some so you can continue to think it over to the end. I hope you do that work for yourself and get to where you want to be with your people.

This part?

Quote:
And finally I think we all need to find a way to figure out what MW wants. At this point in time I doubt she even knows herself.
You don't seem to want to do it face to face at this time. Again, that's a comes later AFTER you are firm of purpose and have made up your mind to proceed.

But if thinking that is freaking you out and you shut down in your thinking process? You could remember you could always send her a letter when that time comes if that makes it easier to execute. Shoot, could give the same 'willingness assessment" to all players. Even you!
Dear MW:

I find it hard to talk in face time but I do want to talk.

Could you be willing to circle things for each of these statements? So I can know where you stand?

1) I would like to grow our 4 person thing into something bigger than swinging/casual sex partners. Could you?
  • At this time, yes. With conditions met.
  • At this time, no. But it could change in time. (soft limit)
  • at this time, no. That will never change. (hard limit)

2) I want you and DH to date in the open. Could you be ok with this?
  • At this time, yes. With conditions met.
  • At this time, no. But it could change in time. (soft limit)
  • at this time, no. That will never change. (hard limit)

3) I would like to date BF in the open. Could you be ok with this?
  • At this time, yes. With conditions met.
  • At this time, no. But it could change in time. (soft limit)
  • at this time, no. That will never change. (hard limit)

4) I want us to try to grow towards an open, honest polyship where we can talk to each other comfortably. Could you be willing to do your part for all of us to get to this place with each other?
  • At this time, yes. With conditions met.
  • At this time, no. But it could change in time. (soft limit)
  • at this time, no. That will never change. (hard limit)

5) I want / do not want to also share casual sex with you in a swinging group context. Could you be ok with this?
  • At this time, yes. With conditions met.
  • At this time, no. But it could change in time. (soft limit)
  • at this time, no. That will never change. (hard limit)

6) I do /do not want to date you. Could you be ok with this?
  • At this time, yes. With conditions met.
  • At this time, no. But it could change in time. (soft limit)
  • at this time, no. That will never change. (hard limit)

7) I do want us to be friends. Could you be ok with this?
  • At this time, yes. With conditions met.
  • At this time, no. But it could change in time. (soft limit)
  • at this time, no. That will never change. (hard limit)
There you go.

Don't want to do it in face time because she's avoidy? Write a letter then. All she has to do is circle answers.

Then you can know where she stands, finish assessing the other players and get on with life.

Move it forward and out of the stuck.

If she's just not willing to play ball? Stop playing ball then. At least you get to neutral zone where you can heal from lies and affairs. That's moving in a positive direction and a good outcome for YOU.

Even if not the BEST hoped for outcome? It's better.

Things take time.

Galagirl

Last edited by GalaGirl; 10-08-2013 at 08:33 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-08-2013, 09:31 PM
Indygirl78 Indygirl78 is offline
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As elementary school "do you like me? Yes or no?" as that sounds it may just be exactly what she can handle. Thanks for the idea!
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2013, 01:26 AM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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Notes/observations based on the recent posts:
  • MW does a lot of scorekeeping.
  • MW has unpredictable mood swings.
  • MW is afraid of telling the truth.
  • MW doesn't really know what she wants.
  • MW feels particularly threatened by you.
  • MW is childlike and used to getting her way.
  • MW is very averse to leaving her comfort zone.
  • MW would be very volatile in the face of the truth.
  • MW just doesn't trust other people, even her friends.
  • MW is afraid of hearing anyone state her true feelings, even herself.
  • MW feels threatened by other people spending time together without her -- even BF and DH.
I can see that you are tired of MW having things one way, while you (theoretically) have to have things another way. It's okay for her to spend one-on-one time with DH, but it's not okay for you to spend one-on-one time with BF. Have you pointed out this inequity to her? If so, what was her defense?

I agree that it would have been much simpler if MW hadn't been in the picture in the first place. Or would it have been? As long as MW entered the picture sooner or later, her insecurities would have followed her sooner or later as well, and then who knows what other kinds of problems she would have caused (in place of the kinds of problems she has caused).

Re (from Indygirl78):
Quote:
"We have all been making plans for a kid free trip together this upcoming spring and I would love things to have progressed enough by that time to allow more time alone between me and BF and she and my DH."
Ohh. This kind of concerns me because I'm afraid MW won't be able to make the changes you're hoping for by Spring, which sounds like a recipe for disappointment (and frustration, and resentment) on your part (and perhaps's BF's part too). This can't be what you want to hear, but I want to be clear about my perception that MW's problems are going to take years, not months, to sort through, let alone work out. Perhaps that means you'll want to dedicate some thought as to whether this could all be worth it to you? I mean, what if it takes decades to sort these problems out? How much patience do you have left for MW's misbehavior?

Remember, you need more than just patience with the situation. You also need patience with listening to what MW has to say. Especially if MW is afraid of telling the truth. That means you'll have to patiently sit through a lot of fibbing before you hear any of the real information.

Are BF and DH reading this thread? If not, they probably should. I think it is going to take all three of you trying to reach MW's hidden emotional layers in order to add up to a good chance of success.

Getting MW to talk about her deepseated feelings is going to take more than just asking her to do it. It's probably going to take scratching away a little at a time ... much like extracting a fossil from the surrounding rock. Chopping away at it with pick and shovels is going to damage the fossil (and mar the information). The work has to be done with brushes and tiny chip-away tools.

From what I am seeing (so far), whatever is hidden inside MW is deeply buried and she is not eager to encounter it herself. It's much more comfortable for her to just fret over surface complaints and annoyances. Digging down deeper would mean that she would have to confront some really scary shit within herself. Sort of like if there were a monster locked away in a dungeon down there. She doesn't want to venture down into the dungeon and free the monster.

Re:
Quote:
"I have in the past suggested she get counseling to help her deal with her past issues, but she only said she probably should have in the past, but has no real intentions of doing it now."
That's odd. Why doesn't she think counseling would help her now, if it would have helped her in the past? Does she think her issues have gotten too cemented to be changed?

Re (from Indygirl78):
Quote:
"I feel that I need to have a serious conversation with BF and DH about ways to resolve this issue."
Good idea.

You'll also do well to work on accomplishing GalaGirl's suggestions.
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