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  #71  
Old 10-26-2013, 11:02 PM
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InfinitePossibility, thank you for your words of support and yes, I really really feel like I understand your post and agree with you. During the long night hours, I myself was thinking about the wild animals thing and thinking, "Wait a minute, wild animals don't really attack each other due a touch (of any kind) without permission, do they? I mean, how does an animal *give* permission anyway? Do they have some special kind of code?"

You mentioned wolf behavior and your description sounded very legitimate to me. Last night, I was practically thinking in parallel only I was picturing a pride of lions. If one lion happens to touch another lion without "permission," does that lion get attacked by the other lion? Well, I don't think so.

When speaking of wild animals and violence, their violence generally has to do with obtaining food, not with correcting each other's tactile behavior. Is that cheetah chasing that antelope because the antelope touched the cheetah without permission and incited a state of rage in the cheetah? Heck no. That cheetah is hungry and wants lunch (or dinner, or whatever). Same reason why a spider attacks an innocent butterfly. The spider is a meat-eater. It *has* to resort to violence in order to survive.

Now let's take plant-eaters. What sort of things incite violence between them? Oh, perhaps mating contests, although those are mostly just posturing. "There, I proved I had the biggest horns, so I get to run things around here and mate with the females." Beyond that, there doesn't seem to be that much that gets them all that excited. An unsolicited touch? between two plant eaters? Right, I'd not expect any violence to happen in such a case. (Hmmm, we do think of some plant-eating dinosaurs as defending themselves with their horns from a meat-eater.)

So meat-eaters appear to be the only wild animals that resort to much violence at all, and when they do, it's because they're, well, meat-eaters, not because someone touched them without their permission. Meat-eating plants such as venus flytraps resort to violence for food too, although yeah the violence is triggered by touch. "Fly lands on me; I close my jaws around it and start digesting away. Cause and effect." And that's the only life form (not counting microbes I guess) I can think of that reacts with violence to touch.

Humans are rather unique animals in that some humans initiate violence for reasons that have nothing to do with food. Humans, in fact, have quite a range of bizarre rationales they create in their minds for initiating violence. Make no mistake, humans are omnivores (i.e. meat-eaters in part) and as such will certainly kill an animal for the food. But humans will also injure, torture, and kill each other over things as abstract as religious doctrines. So wild animals are actually pretty peaceful compared to humans -- even meat-eating animals.

Now, re: sex and clothing ... one of the pro-nudity arguments I've heard is that clothing can at times be more sexually arousing than nudity. Kind of a, "the forbidden fruit that I can't see," type of philosophy. Sometimes when a person demonstrates that they have "nothing to hide," there then seems to be nothing to make a big deal about. Okay like, not that it always works that way, just that for argument's sake it can sometimes work that way.

So yes, I'd agree that people can certainly wear clothing for sexual reasons, and their choice of clothing can correspondingly have a sexual effect. I mean as I mull it over, it seems to me like clothing has an enormous range of potential meanings, many of them symbolic (e.g. the symbolic meaning of a uniform). And yes, sometimes the meaning is simply considerateness towards other folks who aren't comfortable with, and who aren't ready to see, nudity. Most of the time, I feel like the wearing of clothes is mostly the result of plain old habit (and hey who's not more comfortable adhering to habit).

Maybe my problem is that I'm just too conventional to "get" unconventional things? I did grow up in an awfully conservative environment, and even today, as a polyamorist, I am more specifically a polyfidelitist and surely the most conservative (and vanilla) kind of polyamorist. Now when someone else has a contrasting point of view, I kind of like to learn to understand that point of view when I can. But sometimes it's a relief to hear a seemingly friendly/familiar kind of voice, so, InfinitePossibility, I do thank you for your post. I just envy you for your superior skills in diplomacy!

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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  #72  
Old 10-27-2013, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kdt26417 View Post
InfinitePossibility, thank you for your words of support and yes, I really really feel like I understand your post and agree with you.
Awww - I just wanted you to know that I was appreciating your input on this thread.

Quote:
I mean, how does an animal *give* permission anyway? Do they have some special kind of code?"
Depends I think on the animal. Domestic dogs have vast, rich and complex communication system. My opinion is that they are the most brilliant of communicators. They learn to understand some human speech although verbal communication isn't really their thing, many learn ways of communicating desires with the humans they love and many of them are comfortable communicating with each other even if the other dog looks very different to themselves - a Chihuahua and a great dane are both still dogs.

So - yes. Domestic dogs are absolutely able to give permission to be touched. I'd imagine that other animals can too.

Quote:
And that's the only life form (not counting microbes I guess) I can think of that reacts with violence to touch.
Cool example.

But I think that individuals of many species may well react to touch with violence or threats of violence. Some people (and some dogs too for sure) have suffered trauma to an extent that they view being touched as threatening. Some will react violently - especially if they've learned over time that more polite ways of asking not to be touched are ignored.

It happens. I just don't think that it is usual, healthy behavior.

Quote:
Most of the time, I feel like the wearing of clothes is mostly the result of plain old habit (and hey who's not more comfortable adhering to habit).
I agree with you.

I also feel that wearing of clothing may be to do with a type of shame that has nothing to do with morality. We are bombarded with images every day of perfect bodies. The people with those bodies are often portrayed as having perfect lives. Worse - if they put on weight or lose too much weight - the media will report on how ill/fat they are and speculate about how their lives are going wrong.

Not surprisingly it's common for people to grow to adulthood feeling ashamed of their less than perfect body and seeking to hide it. I have at least one friend who never allows anybody including sexual partners to see them naked. I don't think that they are unusual.

A desire to avoid being seen naked is about lots more than morality IMO.

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  #73  
Old 10-28-2013, 05:39 AM
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"Awww -- I just wanted you to know that I was appreciating your input on this thread. "
Yeah, just knowing that one person appreciates it is like a shot of new life for me. So thank you indeed.

You know, I say, "Do animals have some special kind of code?" but I'm guilty as usual of being a little facetious. The truth is, you're right, animals have an amazing ability to talk to each other, with scarcely a fraction of the communication tools that humans generally so poorly use. It's like humans are saying, "Awww, we got all these fancy words; we don't need to be careful about what we say." Meanwhile, our animal friends set the quiet example of us by making the very most of their full range of tools, and they never seem to take anything for granted.

I see you're a dog fan, , don't worry, I love dogs too, I just have a downright neurotic love affair with cats. I was so struck by this one National Geographic film on cats, where they pointed out that humans sometimes wrongly perceive cats as "cold" or "distant" because they're not jumping all over us with joy to see us like our dog is. But when you watch cats really closely, you start to see their subtle and touching language. It's like they're always playing hard to get, but they're also furtively rubbing you here and there as if to say, "Oh by the way, I love you." Now when your dog greets you, they leave you with no doubt in your mind as to their love for you.

I imagine all the higher animals (e.g. whales? wowsiers) have meaningful communication systems ... and honestly, birds and reptiles seem to have a heart to express too. Don't know how far "down" the evolutionary scale one must go to lose those rich systems of communications. I don't suppose sponges "communicate much," but guess what, even spiders have a considerable system of communication, especially while mating. That poor male has to have a way to tell the female, "Don't eat me yet, I'm here to make love to you." One of the oddest things I ever heard of was a male spider "tickling" the female to soften her heart. Pretty clever for an eight-legged "footnote" on the evolutionary tree.

Re: violent reaction to touch due to past trauma ... I had actually not thought of that, good point. Doesn't mean bad genes are never to blame (in humans that is), but I am reminded of how some "rescued" dogs have to be put down because they're unable to be re-socialized. So is it my place to judge why a human or animal is senselessly aggressive? Hmmmm, no, it's actually not. Perhaps this will help me to have a better spirit of tolerance and understanding (which is always a good thing).

Re: using clothes to protect one's "imperfect body" from being seen ... uh oh, guilty. Yes, I am a victim of the churned-out media messages. Revealing myself: I just don't think I could do it, unless my life depended on it. But at least I'm not so far gone that I can't get that vulnerable during sex. Just have to ignore those little voices in my head telling me, "I'm going to disgust my partner."

That said, I wonder if it isn't one of the more innocent neuroses humans indulge in. After all, we're not killing anyone, we're not threatening anyone, heck we're not even condemning anyone, we're just displaying a chicken frame of mind. "Please! Don't look at me like I really am!" And it's not just clothes, either, is it? Don't we all have parts of ourselves that we cringe from sharing with the world? "I only want you to see my best side, my oh-so-well-adjusted side, not my scared, neurotic side."

Not only is the media guilty of preaching "perfect body image," but we've even heard it preached by non-media persons on this thread. (Okay, I did it too, but we all agree that I cleared that up, right?) "Ah, if only I had a 'perfect body,' all of my problems would be solved ..."

Re:
Quote:
"A desire to avoid being seen naked is about lots more than morality IMO."
Heavy. I kind of suspect that there's a list of "real reasons" too long for us to tap into without gaining much deeper insight into the human subconscious. Morality is like the tip of the iceberg.
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Last edited by kdt26417; 10-28-2013 at 05:41 AM.
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  #74  
Old 10-28-2013, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by InfinitePossibility View Post
Oh so much to talk about here from the last day or so. Good stuff.



Kevin, my opinion for what it's worth is that your contributions to this thread have been fascinating. You've provided an open account of where you picked up some of your views on body shape and size. You've talked also about how your recovery from what you experienced in the past is ongoing. I applaud your ability to reflect critically on your own thoughts and feelings. Keep writing - especially if you find it helpful.



I don't understand your need to relate being sexual or not in dress to only women. Why the focus on gender?

Having said that, I very much agree with you that it's important not to make assumptions based only on clothing. Depends also on circumstances and on what else is going on around them.

If I have a night out in my local city at the weekend, the place tends to have numbers of people of various ages and genders who have made an enormous effort to dress in away that makes them more attractive to whichever group of people it is that they are attracted to.

Clothing choice may or may not have a sexual element. I don't think that it matters either way really.



You've mentioned this several times, ColorsWolf and it simply isn't true. It is also not accurate to lump "wild creatures" together as a single group who all have the same "mentality".

This is not the case. Different species have very different social norms. Even within those, there will be vast individual differences.

My area of expertise is more with domestic dogs but I have done a small amount of research into wolves too. In the wild wolves live in family groups. They spend time together playing and possibly sleeping together. Of course, there are polite ways to ask for a game and it's likely that the advances of a young wolf charging over and shoulder barging a very elderly relative as they eat a meal won't be welcome. But - a young wolf behaving that way is very unlikely to be hurt. Depending on the individuals and the relationship that they have, the playful wolf may be ignored or they may be chased off with a snarl and a display of teeth.

Wolves are like people in being sociable animals and it's hard to live together if minor breaches of social etiquette result in one individual hurting another. It's in the interests of every individual and the group as a whole to have an array of signals and strategies for dealing with conflict peacefully. If you are interested in reading more, I'd recommend anything that David Mech has written in the last 15 or so years.

I see the notion of hurting anybody who touches me without permission as very strange and quite disturbing. I'd find it difficult to live a normal life if I felt that I had to behave in that way. In any given day, somebody may rudely push past me in the supermarket, another person might get my attention by putting their hand on my shoulder to ask me for directions, my work colleague may get my attention by grabbing my arm, I might go to the pub and have a drunkenly affectionate man put his arm round me and offer to buy me a drink and when I go to the toilet I may feel another bloke grab my arse as I go past.

These are all things that have happened to me in the last 6 months or so. In none of these examples have the other person sought my permission to touch me. In some of them the touch is inappropriate and unwelcome. And yet still, hurting the people involved would not be okay and isn't something that would cross my mind.

Colorswolf, I feel for you if the world is so threatening to you that you feel hurting anybody who touches you without your permission is okay. Your world must be a scary one.

Please, don't justify your problematic thoughts by making reference to "wild animals". What you describe isn't normal in the "wild" and referencing it is no justification.

IP
In regards to my statements on "wild creatures",: you are right, I'm sorry, I will say that "from my knowledge of interactions between non-wild Humans and and wild creatures" I have seen this kind of behavior of "caution" that could easily become "violent".~

Of course, our observations of other species can never be truly considered "the leading experts" as the only "leading experts" are those of the species in question themselves as our methods of communication with those outside our own species is still called into question as to their validity and to their stability: we just don't know any thing for sure.~

As to your reference to myself, you have obviously not read my entire posts as it seems you may have overlooked some thing.~

I said when I was in highschool growing through puberty I had a very violent mentality.~

Being removed from that poisonous to me environment and homeschooling significantly changed my outlook on life, because I was lost, disconnected, and confused before and now I am discovering who I am as I live.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-28-2013 at 07:20 PM.
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  #75  
Old 10-28-2013, 07:23 PM
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Shame regardless of where it comes from is unnatural, unhealthy, and causes those whom it affects to be self-destructive.~
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  #76  
Old 10-29-2013, 07:33 PM
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Kevin T., thank you for trying to understand me!~ ^_^

Your contributions to this thread and discussion are very much appreciated.~

I hope you don't get "scared off" simply because of our "misunderstandings".~

I would appreciate any further contribution you make towards this discussion.~

I will try and help you "understand" my words so that we may both have better communication between each other.~ ^_^

Love,

ColorsWolf
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  #77  
Old 10-29-2013, 10:29 PM
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Guess I just have issues with the idea that I'm some kind of special-needs student who can't even grasp the subject material let alone contribute to it. I have no objections to whatever you want to post, and I'm sure others will be able to understand and appreciate it, better than I did.

I don't think "scared off" is a fair characterization of my "sudden relative reticence" (how much do other members usually write in one thread anyway?). Instead, I think it's sensible for me to refrain from taking part in a dialog that only seems to make you more and more upset. Who's it helping?

I respect your right to your own opinions and sympathize with any past trauma you have experienced. No need for me to aggravate any of that by asking pesky questions that cast "doubts" on the important message you're trying to convey.

So let's see what happens when I do have something to say, and if it perhaps illustrates what I'm getting at. If it doesn't, hey, I can handle being wrong.

Re:
Quote:
"In regards to my statements on 'wild creatures:' you are right, I'm sorry, I will say that 'from my knowledge of interactions between non-wild Humans and and wild creatures' I have seen this kind of behavior of 'caution' that could easily become 'violent.'"
Right. Does wild-animal-on-human violence ever occur? It does. Everyone dreads the idea of crossing paths with an angry grizzly bear. For that matter, who wants to get stung by a bee?

But the idea that these animals attack because they're offended by an "unpermitted touch" is far outside the realm of my knowledge and experience with any wild animals. What I've found is that in most cases, a wild animal will only attack a human as a do-or-die "last resort." They're not "looking for an excuse." Every animal I've ever encountered in the wild has shied away from me. Its only goal seemed to be to distance itself from me and escape my notice. Given this dynamic, how am I supposed to even get close enough to this wild animal to touch it without its permission?

It seems to me that you yourself asserted that wild animals and humans don't have a common system of communication. If that's true, then how is a wild animal even supposed to give me permission to touch it? It doesn't have the means to communicate with me.

Yes it's true that we don't know anything for sure. I don't know that I'm not just a brain in a vat. But there is such a thing as *probability.* Some things are *more likely* to be the case based on the information that we have.

Re:
Quote:
"I said when I was in highschool growing through puberty I had a very violent mentality."
Essentially yes you did, but you didn't really go into your pre-high-school experiences, which surely must have contributed to your high-school experiences in some way. People just don't normally attack other people for the mere cause of an unpermitted touch. Either you're dealing with some nasty genetic material, or your boundaries were somehow seriously violated before you ever arrived at high school (or both).

Look, I hated high school, plain and simple. But I didn't express my hatred by physically attacking other students. I rather expressed it by trying to stay the hell away from everyone, avoiding social interactions, and just in general having a lonesome miserable time because I was totally isolated from human interaction. Add to that the fact that my parents (okay really my mother) put enormous pressure on me to get acceptable grades (a C was not acceptable), and I just had all the more reason to hate school. Too bad, since it is my natural inclination to be interested in learning about lots of subjects. I liked my teachers. I hated my peers and my parents.

And *I* was an abnormality. The vast majority of students there enjoyed their school experience, had fun with each other, and performed well in their classes. So can you see how unusual it is for a high school student to physically attack another student at the cause of a mere unpermitted touch? For crying out loud, high schools are full of students milling to and fro. People accidentally brush up against each other all the time. Does that kind of touch call for permission?

That's nice that homeschooling helped shelter you from the kind of experiences that every high-school student has. And I suppose you could argue that therefore, we should all be homeschooled. I am actually not a fan of public schooling as a whole. But people are normally able to at least physically contain themselves, even when exposed to a less-than-ideal environment.

Other than that, you haven't been (logged on or) posting much lately, perhaps because you don't normally log on over the weekends, but the point is, I don't have much else I can respond to right now. I guess you'll have to post some more if you're interested in more of my outlook. But I *cannot* guarantee that I'm going to see the things the way you suppose I would or ought to see them.

Perhaps it would be helpful to invest in an awareness of how very different people's various perspectives are? You can't "save the world" with your enlightened ideas, no matter how superior they are, unless you can first relate to your audience on an eye-to-eye level. Remember how Jesus hung out with thieves and prostitutes, and had a rapport with them? The Pharisees thought that was just awful of him, and proof that he was some kind of degraded person. But Jesus wasn't interested in hanging out with the Pharisees. That was the social group that he had much less hope for.

In a nutshell, there may be such a thing as being "too perfect." I may come across as some kind of annoying moron, but my ideas have value to me, just as your ideas have value to you, and everyone desires acceptance, appreciation, and validation. Can you send those things out, as much as you desire to receive them from others?

Those are the tough questions I have for you to answer in this post. You can ignore them, you can rage at them, you can dismiss them by claiming "I obviously didn't read what you wrote," but you can't un-ask them.

The one other thing I hope you'll consider is that no matter how stupid someone else's post is, it doesn't erase any of your posts. Your posts are all here, perfectly intact, available for anyone to re-read and gain a better understanding of anytime they want to or are able to. Thus, just because someone doesn't "get" what you're saying, doesn't mean they've somehow ruined your message. Your message is still right there, safely preserved for all of Polyamory.com to read and comprehend. Is it really that important that I, one single member, be part of the "enlightened flock?" Heck, why can't I continue to be some dumb unenlightened person who thinks he has to clothe himself because it's too scary for him to expose himself to the world? With seven billion people on the planet, can't some of us be hopeless cases?

So please continue to post your thoughts and insights here, and do not let me be a deterrent to that whether I talk, agree, comprehend, or whatever. There are tons of people you can help here besides me.

In the meantime, I am perfectly willing to accept and appreciate your contributions, no matter what my ability to comprehend them is. There may be one English language, but no two people speak/understand that language in quite the same way. That's okay. Polyamory.com is a big enough place to make it possible for any number of people to develop common understandings. That's what I value the site for.

In conclusion, I re-iterate my regret for any offense I have caused. Anything I have said, I have only said in the spirit of sharing different ideas, and hoping to understand. If I fail in that ideal, it's my failure and mine alone. No one else has to take responsibility for it. You don't have to be responsible for how or whether I express myself. Just share your message as best you can, and have faith that the people who need to get it, will get it.

Respectfully,
Kevin T.
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  #78  
Old 10-29-2013, 11:44 PM
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It started in pre-school, the moment I hit "puberty" my world was thrown into a sea of confusion, for the first time I was seriously questioning everything.~

As I got older, I'm not sure how it happened but "highschool" acted like a "catalyst" for excelerating this "process" the moment I stepped foot there: with my confusion came depression, then fear of the unknown, then anger, then hatred, and finally suffering joined the party.~

It felt like a lifetime to me, but it was only a few years.~

It's like Yoda from Star Wars said (paraphrasing), "I sense much confusion within you and much more fear within you. You must be careful, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, and suffering is the path to the Dark Side.~

I was a "loner" in "highschool": I just wanted to be left alone, I LOVED TO LEARN BUT I WANTED THE "EDUCATION" WITHOUT THE "STUDENTS"!~ I dressed how I felt and how I thought would get people to stay away from me: I wore all black with a fake leather jacket, but it had the OPPOSITE effect and NO ONE WOULD LEAVE ME ALONE --> SO I WARNED THEM, IF THEY DIDN'T LISTEN I HURT THEM.~

But 3 years of homeschooling away from that "deathtrap" that is called "highschool" gave ME what I NEEDED: love, care, nurturing, and the feeling of connectivity: the feeling of closeness: the feeling that WHAT I DID ACTUALLY HAD CONSEQUENCES AND ACTUALLY MATTERED, I DIDN'T GET ANY OF THAT FEELING FROM BEING INSIDE OF "HIGHSCHOOL" NOT EVEN FROM GETTING ARRESTED AND SPENDING THE NIGHT IN COUNTY JAIL: I FELT NOTHING AT ALL.~

DON'T talk to me about "normal", you can just STOP right there: there IS NO "NORMAL", THERE IS "EVERYONE WANTS THIS", THERE IS NO "STANDARD", EVERYONE CAN NOT BE MEASURED TO ONE "STANDARD" AND BE EXPECTED TO "MEASURE UP"!!~

And here's something shocking you might not have known: just because some one LOOKS like "they're having fun, smiling, laughing, having a great old time just like everyone else" DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW THEY ARE TRULY FEELING DEEP INSIDE OF THEMSELVES.~ Some times when some one says, "I'm fine *smiles*." inside they're feeling, "I'm dying inside."

Every person is an individual who develops at their own pace, every person is never the completely exactly the same as any one else, "one-size DOES NOT FIT ALL", whether you or any one recognizes or acknowledges it at all is completely irrelevant.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-30-2013 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 10-30-2013, 12:31 AM
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I'm not here to argue about what constitutes "normal" (common? typical? I don't know what the best word is), or what people hide about themselves in "normal" situations. I can only speak to what I myself saw, and if others were good at hiding their insecurities, then I was not.

Physical violence is actually a little *too* "normal" throughout the world, in my opinion. But I also have comparable opinions about verbal violence.

I perceive that you had some schooling in the "school of hard knocks" (not that my perception comes with any guarantee of accuracy).

If you don't want me to question your past/origins, then I won't question it. I guess basically you can decide whether to give any such questions I already composed the time of day. Not required, this isn't a test. (It does put me in a bit of a pickle when what I'm responding to changes before I can post my response.)

But, here's the questions I had already written:

So ... in your highschool experience you found that you were (compulsively) sharing your input (and education?) with far too many strangers? Public schooling can't be credited for specializing in personal attention.

Can you be more specific about what happened in pre-school to set the stage for what apparently would explode when you hit puberty?

I wasn't "privileged" to "enjoy" pre-school, I started with Kindergarten. Which was quite bad enough. My grade school was no example of kind/humane teachers and my Kindergarten teacher was probably the worst of the bunch.

Either we're talking about genetics here, or else we need to dig even deeper into the *experiences* realm. (Or both.)

It's fair to say that I wasn't born into a "sane" family. Which means, I was probably dealing (and continue to deal) with disadvantages in both the nature and the nurture areas.

Re:
Quote:
"I sense much confusion within you and much more *fear* within you. You must be careful, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering, and *suffering* is the path to the Dark Side."
Yoda speaks much wisdom in that paragraph. Let's hope we can all pay him some attention (and get what he's saying) there.
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Last edited by kdt26417; 10-30-2013 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:30 AM
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Kevin T., "But, here's the questions I had already written:

So ... in your highschool experience you found that you were (compulsively) sharing your input (and education?) with far too many strangers? Public schooling can't be credited for specializing in personal attention."

No.

"Can you be more specific about what happened in pre-school to set the stage for what apparently would explode when you hit puberty?"

No.

"Re:

Yoda speaks much wisdom in that paragraph. Let's hope we can all pay him some attention (and get what he's saying) there."

Agreed.~

I'm not directing this completely at you, but more as to everyone in general:

Why do many Humans continue to try and put everything into 2 sets of duality: good and evil, black and white, etc. when life is so much more than

that: everything can be beautiful, wonderful, ugly, horrible, all at the same time or any combination of and there IS no "one" individual definition of these words,

is it too much to ask that those who do this just stop trying to "fit" everything into these neat tiny little "boxes" of unchangable "THINGS" and

accept that not everything is going to "fit" into "one" category or "another" and that not everyone is going to agree upon EVERYTHING and just move on

with our lives instead of trying to FORCE EACH TO BELIEVE WHAT EACH OF US BELIEVE AS INDIVIDUALS?!~ IS IT?!~
__________________
Love yourself, you are beautiful!~ ^_^

*Believe in yourself, you can do anything*!~ ^_^

Appreciate every thing, every thing is precious.~


Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-30-2013 at 03:36 AM.
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