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  #61  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:12 AM
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  #62  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:18 AM
InfinitePossibility InfinitePossibility is offline
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This is such a fascinating thread. Thanks to ColorsWolf for starting it.

I haven't had time to reply until but have been reading for a while. People being ashamed of their bodies is, I think, a very real problem. I spent some time about 20 years ago studying a course that was very focused on learning how to observe movement in other human beings. To make it easier for us to see the movement rather than be distracted by flapping clothes, those of us on the course spent much of our time in our underwear walking up and down or standing in front of each other.

During that course, I lost my self consciousness about my body. People seeing me naked does not bother in the way it did before doing the course. I also learned that nobody has a perfect body. Even the very beautiful people on the course had areas on their bodies that were not perfect. The only perfection that you see is photos in magazines and those shots tend to be carefully posed and then air brushed.

I'm not bothered at all by my own or other people's nudity but it's not something that I feel moved to campaign about. I like wearing clothes. I live in a cold part of the world so they help. They are useful for expressing something of who I am. It's more comfortable for others to be around me if I'm clothed (I may not care about nudity but lots of people do). I'm not constantly being arrested for breach of the peace so I am able to be with my loved ones in a way that is useful to them and am not causing them lots of worry.

Unlike this guy who I do applaud for his commitment to his cause while feeling sad that he has chosen to abandon his family and loved ones to make a point that most people will never get.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...il-trial-judge

Regarding the idea that animals tend to engage in sexual activity out in the open. I think that it very much depends on the circumstances for the individual - just as with people. Plenty of people have sex in front of others - they choose the others and they choose the circumstances. I think it is the same with animals.

Sex makes us vulnerable so at the very least, there is a requirement to be in a safe place.

Depending on the species or individual within that species being watched by others may be off putting or threatening.

Regarding subtlety in communication. The difficulty is that things that seem clear to the person writing are not ever so clear to the person reading. Both reader and writer view the words on the page through the lens of their own world view and that means that they will see different meaning in the words.

This is much more so with written communication than with face to face communication. It's something worth bearing in mind.

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  #63  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:37 AM
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Re:
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"Sex makes us vulnerable so at the very least, there is a requirement to be in a safe place."
Such as a place where we won't get arrested. See? There I go, making light of the situation again.

Re:
Quote:
"Regarding subtlety in communication. The difficulty is that things that seem clear to the person writing are not ever so clear to the person reading. Both reader and writer view the words on the page through the lens of their own world view and that means that they will see different meaning in the words."
Thank you; that's just what I was trying to get at in my defense.

Re:
Quote:
"This is much more so with written communication than with face to face communication. It's something worth bearing in mind."
Partly because in written communication, I tend to talk too much!

Oh well, I am still listening, and interested in learning.

I guess my official position about nudity is that it's a fine and brave thing to do; but I also don't assume a guy wearing clothes is a self-loathing coward. Everyone can have healthy or unhealthy reasons for what they do, and the effects/consequences can likewise be healthy or unhealthy. I just feel okay about diversity in matters like this.
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  #64  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:07 PM
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I love clothes, but when I don't feel like wearing them it annoys me when others are so wrapped in their own delusions of self-hatred that they try to FORCE me to live and think as they do.~

Concepts such as "shame", "modesty", and "dignity" are useless unnatural and self-destroying concepts that I very fortunately un-learned as I got older and they are almost completely gone from me.~ ^_^ As a result I am feeling much more happy and confident with myself as I am.~

The same goes for others around me:

You might not know this, but I used to think that females who wore very little clothing were trying to be sexual in some way.~

Then I realized some thing: I don’t like to wear a lot of clothing either, because it gets in the way when I’m living my life and it’s often VERY HOT where ever I usually am so I sweat a lot if I wear too much clothing.~

Now when I look at females who wear very little clothing, I stop, I look at them, I appreciate their beauty, I smile, and I think to myself, “Good for them, they can feel the breeze.~”

Then I go on with my life.~

So the next time you see some one, before you judge them: think how would you feel if you were living their life and if you're still ignorant then ask, listen, and learn from them before you go on to judge some one for some thing you truly know nothing about.~

This applies to everything: skin color, place of birth, way of dressing, religion, culture, and beliefs.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-25-2013 at 07:12 PM.
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  #65  
Old 10-25-2013, 10:37 PM
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Re:
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"I love clothes, but when I don't feel like wearing them it annoys me when others are so wrapped in their own delusions of self-hatred that they try to *force* me to live and think as they do."
Are you perhaps referring to the fact that you're in the Navy (as per your intro thread), and the Navy forces you to clothe yourself? I know in the past you have expressed objections to hair-cutting, and God knows the Navy makes you cut your hair (and shave). Is all this a sign of some kind of institution-wide delusions of self-hatred on the Navy's part? or, are you just trying to point out the nation-wide delusions of self-hatred that lurk behind public nudity being illegal in the United States?

So, people who are forced to wear clothes (such as by laws in the United States) are still doing okay as long as they've dispensed with concepts such as shame, modesty, and dignity? No statements here, just questions being asked for clarification.

What about people who wear clothes for any reason (not necessarily because they're forced to, maybe because it's cold out, or even because they like dressing up)? Is it possible that they, too, might have dispensed with concepts shuch as shame, modesty, and dignity? or does their voluntary wearing of clothes prove that they're carrying unnecessary/illogical baggage around?

You're pointing out that you don't get sexual stimulation from women wearing sparse amounts of clothes. I think I get that.

Now if I have judged you in some way, then I apologize. I am certainly willing to ask, listen, and learn to the best of my ability. And, I ask for the same kind of courtesy in return.

So, going back to the one earlier post, I'm speculating that I may have identified where I made a wrong turn?

You said,
Quote:
"On the subject of 'morality:' I don't believe in 'universal morality', because every one likes and dislikes different things. To try *force everyone everywhere* into *living how you want* is pure arrogance. *But* everyone *does* have some 'basic form' of 'respect,' like 'Don't touch me unless I say you can or *I will hurt you!*'"
So one post later, I replied,
When you speak of morality, I wonder if you aren't mostly speaking of "sexual morality." After all, can't we argue that there's a "moral rule" against running out and randomly killing people? That's a different kind of moral issue.
Re:
Quote:
"Don't touch me unless I say you can or *I will hurt you!*"
To which I remarked:
Yikes, I hope that doesn't apply to if I accidentally bump into someone --

Well, I guess you could say I made light of your "don't touch me unless I say you can or *I will hurt you*" statement, and maybe I came across as making fun of you. I guess you could fairly say that I "corrupted the meaning of what you were trying to say." So, I will ask your pardon for not taking it very seriously and not addressing it directly on its intended merits.

To at least lend the statement the seriousness it deserves, I'll just say that I interpreted it as a symbolic description of how one appropriately defends oneself against rape and other inappropriate sexual advances. Yes, I feel that I understand the meaning, but in all honesty I have to confess that I am skeptical about its effectiveness, and about its universal applicability.

First of all, if some guy is serious about raping a woman, he has advantages such as greater size and strength and probably a weapon he carries. In a "lesser situation" where some guy is trying to "trick" a girl or women into letting him have his way, he has the advantage of soothing words and approaches. Finally, I see the possibility of a man's touch being innocent or accidental, and then the threatening posturing against him is inappropriate.

These are my objections to that type of defense as I understand it. So, no more joking around, at least I am seriously stating whatever position and understanding I have. If in your opinion I am out of line and in need of correction, you are certainly privileged to state that correction and I will try to give it a fair listen.

As for my remarks about "universal morality" in the sense of, "Don't we all agree that it's not okay to just going around killing people," I wasn't joking at all, just trying to add a point of perspective and perhaps clarify (not assert) whether you were talking about a "type of morality." I didn't at all mean to corrupt your meaning, I only wanted to add my own query and perspective to the matter.

Can't we agree that the "universal" ideas about sex and attire are more open to question than "universal" ideas about refraining from violence? That's all I was trying to get at.

Now, if there are other areas where I turned wrong in the post in question, I don't think I comprehend what they are, or how I screwed them up. But I hope it's not lost on you that I am trying my best to make things right. No, I don't understand everything; that is a fact. Even stuff that maybe seems patently clear to the whole world, doesn't necessarily penetrate my thick skull. (You can say that I'm now making fun of myself, but my intent is quite serious.)

So maybe it doesn't seem like I'm trying to ask, listen, and learn, but for all I can tell, I am trying to do exactly those things. I think my real weakness is that I often take an attitude of levity about something when no such attitude will be appreciated (and perhaps won't even be understood). I definitely never intended to give anyone a "bad time," let alone screw up their important message. I guess you'll just have to decide whether you're inclined to believe me when I say that.

On the other hand, I hope that we are at least going to be able to agree to disagree about some things without feeling attacked by one another. I'm a little concerned that maybe that's what's happened in this case. No, I really can't just agree with you on every point you're trying to make. I have my own mind and experiences to draw from when forming my opinions, and sometimes my honest opinion has to unfortunately "appear to undermine" someone else's opinion. I feel that we need to be able to discuss our varying perspectives about things without turning it into a confrontation.

That's all I can tell you at this time and in this post. I hope it does not offend you. I'm really trying to not be offensive.
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  #66  
Old 10-25-2013, 11:08 PM
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Kevin T.,

I am NOT being FORCED to do ANYTHING by the Navy, I chose this path in my life and so I choose to go along with the things the Navy asks of me.~

Such laws concerning the state of being without clothing have no foundation for existence without illogical concepts such as "shame".~

I tried to make this clear in my previous post, but I suppose I was too vague then.~ I have no issue with wearing clothing, there are reasons for wearing clothing and there are reasons FOR NOT wearing clothing.~ I DO NOT see illogical concepts such as "shame" that is used to dictate everything it touches as having ANY LOGICAL HEALTHY reason for existing at all.~

No you don't "get" my meaning in my last post concerning women wearing very little clothing.~ I do not know how much more clear I can make it, I typed it plainly there, READ EVERY THING I TYPED FROM TOP TO BOTTOM IN MY LAST POST!~

On your "symbolic interpretations", that's where you make your mistakes in trying to understand my words.~ STOP TRYING TO SEE "SYMBOLIC" MEANINGS IN MY WORDS, THERE ARE NONE!~ I talk literally and every thing I write is LITERAL!~ NOT SYMBOLIC!~

My words of "BUT every one DOES have some 'basic form' of 'respect', like "Don't touch me unless I say you can or I WILL HURT YOU!"" I said LIKE AS IN AN EXAMPLE.~ This example is taken from the most basic of all seemingly natural "mentalities" of all "wild creatures".~

My issue with you is not that we "disagree", my issue with you is that you seem to keep "misunderstanding" my posts by seeing literal words and trying to inject some kind of abstract meaning to them.~


You said, "First of all, if some guy is serious about raping a woman, he has advantages such as greater size and strength and probably a weapon he carries. In a "lesser situation" where some guy is trying to "trick" a girl or women into letting him have his way, he has the advantage of soothing words and approaches. Finally, I see the possibility of a man's touch being innocent or accidental, and then the threatening posturing against him is inappropriate."

Even though this has nothing to do with any thing I have been talking about, I will address this:

While physical differences can be taken into consideration when it comes to confrontation between Humans, please DO NOT make the same mistake that so many seem to make and make sweeping generalizations about certain groups of Humans based upon your own knowledge as your's and any one else's knowledge on such things is limited at best.~

The reason for this is because no two creatures, including individual Humans, are the same and no two circumstances anywhere are ever the same.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-26-2013 at 02:34 AM.
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  #67  
Old 10-25-2013, 11:53 PM
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Okay, fair point, you make your own decision to conform with the Navy's rules in order to participate in it as a whole. Doesn't seem like a problem, we all choose compromises in life which is kind of the best we can do.

But I take it that you still want to point out that clothing laws are based on illogical concepts such as shame. I guess I don't see any particular reason to disagree with that.

Yep, you're right, I have a hard time understanding the meanings you're trying to convey in your posts, at least I've sure been having a hard time doing that lately. I'm trying.

So, sometimes clothing is appropriate, sometimes not, and as long as illogical concepts such as shame aren't trying to determine which is which, then there isn't a problem. I guess correct me if I'm wrong?

Sorry if I didn't get your meaning in your statement about women wearing little clothing. You accuse me of not reading everything you wrote. I did read it all, I just didn't interpret it the way you intended, so again I apologize.

So what you said was:
Quote:
"Now when I look at females who wear very little clothing, I stop, I look at them, I appreciate their beauty, I smile, and I think to myself, 'Good for them, they can feel the breeze.' Then I go on with my life."
So I take it my error was in suggesting you didn't look at or appreciate the beauty of such women, while being glad for their apparent spirit of inner freedom that's expressed in that way. I guess I just focused on your last sentence about then going on with your life. So what I was saying is that I understood that you didn't make a big deal about it. Guess that's not quite how I worded myself the first time, but I think that's what I meant. I certainly didn't mean to deny you credit for the positive perception you did have of such women.

Look, maybe I'm just not being thorough enough in stating my thoughts or understandings. I did feel like my post was getting a little long as it was, but I take it I ommitted something important and I'll just have to ask your pardon for that.

Yes, it's true that wild animals will forcefully defend themselves from unwanted sexual advances when they feel they need to. So, maybe that was the only point you were trying to make? I guess I just don't get how we can apply it as humans.

I guess it seems like I'm trying to inject some kind of abstract meaning into your literal words, but honestly that's not quite what's happening. Maybe I'm *seeing* abstract meanings that aren't there; that's certainly possible. But I'm not trying to inject anything of my own design into your message. Your message is your own. My honest intent is to understand that message. So, if I seem to be trying to inject something into it, maybe that's because I'm miscommunicating my intent.

I'm not necessarily denying having made some sweeping generalizations about humans (and other topics), but I am aware of the principle of individual exceptions to the "statistical patterns." And is my knowledge great? No, I don't think so. Do I know everything about everything? I'm sure I don't. Sorry, I guess that means I will make mistakes sometimes in my statements and observations. Aren't we all guilty of that imperfection? So, we are neither teachers nor students to each other, we are just imperfect people who are trying to share our imperfect ideas on this thread.

What else can I possibly say to help keep the peace here? I am really floundering wondering what I'm supposed to do. I seem to have caused a whole lot of problems when I was actually hoping to contribute.

So, how can we get along a little better? I'm open to suggestions (insofar as I am able to understand them correctly).
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  #68  
Old 10-26-2013, 02:53 AM
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Kevin, "Yes, it's true that wild animals will forcefully defend themselves from unwanted sexual advances when they feel they need to. So, maybe that was the only point you were trying to make? I guess I just don't get how we can apply it as humans."

*sigh, deep breaths, trying to calm down* Did I say "sex"?~ Please stop trying to make the things that I say about "sex".~

Moving on, no matter how much Humans want to it not to be true we will always be animals and yes the basic wild animal mentality can apply to all of us depending on the kind of person you are.~

Can you honestly tell me you have never learned of an individual Human who had the mentality of "Don't touch me unless I say you can or I will hurt you."?

Well now you have, at least a former one, I used to have this mentality in high school because of the way I grew through puberty I just sort of formed that mindset.~

Thanks to my family for pulling me out of that deathtrap called "highschool" and homeschooling me, otherwise I honestly believe I would be either dead or in jail right now.~


I'm not angry at you, I'm just frustrated with you.~

I honestly feel like when I say "sandwhich" you think "lightbulb".~

Just please try to read my words without letting your mind wonder into where ever it goes to.~
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Last edited by ColorsWolf; 10-26-2013 at 02:56 AM.
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  #69  
Old 10-26-2013, 05:43 AM
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Re:
Quote:
"Don't touch me unless I say you can or *I will hurt you!*"
Ohhh ... that statement has nothing to do with sex ... or ... sex is just once facet? ... or forget the sex stuff, the statement simply relates to touch of any kind? Well, is it related to any of the matters about nudity in any way? If not, okay; if so, then I was wondering how?

Re:
Quote:
"Moving on, no matter how much Humans want to it not to be true we will always be animals and yes the basic wild animal mentality can apply to all of us depending on the kind of person you are."
Okay. I don't see any reason to doubt that, I guess I just wonder how it applies to the rest of our discussion?

Re:
Quote:
"Can you honestly tell me you have never learned of an individual Human who had the mentality of 'Don't touch me unless I say you can or *I will hurt you?*'"
Yay, I get a chance to add a surprise to the conversation. Yes, I can honestly tell you that I've never learned of an individual Human who had that mentality. Not a once in all my years. You heard it here first. Have I known some violent people? Oh yes, but that seems to me like a different (less specific) question. (But if you meant violent people in general, then I guess I didn't get to add a surprise after all; bummer for me.)

So, you seem to be telling me that you were, well, hypersensitive about touch when you were in school, and that if you hadn't been switched to homeschooling, things might have gotten ugly?

While I understand your frustration (I say "sandwich" and he thinks "lightbulb"), I hope you will grant me some leeway since I'm not doing it on purpose.

Re:
Quote:
"Just please try to read my words without letting your mind wander into wherever it goes to."
Alas, my mind has always had a "mind of its own" and I never know quite where it's going to end up. The best I can do to try to carry out your request is to make an effort to interpret whatever you say in strictly literal terms. This probably means, though, that I'll have some questions about relevance, because sometimes I don't quite get where our conversation is going. I guess I'm missing some of the links that seem obvious to everyone else.

Would it help if I just stayed out of the way? If my posts are all inappropriate, then surely they're not helping anybody? I'm kinda disappointed, I really thought I was doing some good here.
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Old 10-26-2013, 07:58 AM
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Oh so much to talk about here from the last day or so. Good stuff.

Quote:
Would it help if I just stayed out of the way? If my posts are all inappropriate, then surely they're not helping anybody? I'm kinda disappointed, I really thought I was doing some good here.
Kevin, my opinion for what it's worth is that your contributions to this thread have been fascinating. You've provided an open account of where you picked up some of your views on body shape and size. You've talked also about how your recovery from what you experienced in the past is ongoing. I applaud your ability to reflect critically on your own thoughts and feelings. Keep writing - especially if you find it helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorsWolf View Post
You might not know this, but I used to think that females who wore very little clothing were trying to be sexual in some way.~
I don't understand your need to relate being sexual or not in dress to only women. Why the focus on gender?

Having said that, I very much agree with you that it's important not to make assumptions based only on clothing. Depends also on circumstances and on what else is going on around them.

If I have a night out in my local city at the weekend, the place tends to have numbers of people of various ages and genders who have made an enormous effort to dress in away that makes them more attractive to whichever group of people it is that they are attracted to.

Clothing choice may or may not have a sexual element. I don't think that it matters either way really.

Quote:
My words of "BUT every one DOES have some 'basic form' of 'respect', like "Don't touch me unless I say you can or I WILL HURT YOU!"" I said LIKE AS IN AN EXAMPLE.~ This example is taken from the most basic of all seemingly natural "mentalities" of all "wild creatures".~
You've mentioned this several times, ColorsWolf and it simply isn't true. It is also not accurate to lump "wild creatures" together as a single group who all have the same "mentality".

This is not the case. Different species have very different social norms. Even within those, there will be vast individual differences.

My area of expertise is more with domestic dogs but I have done a small amount of research into wolves too. In the wild wolves live in family groups. They spend time together playing and possibly sleeping together. Of course, there are polite ways to ask for a game and it's likely that the advances of a young wolf charging over and shoulder barging a very elderly relative as they eat a meal won't be welcome. But - a young wolf behaving that way is very unlikely to be hurt. Depending on the individuals and the relationship that they have, the playful wolf may be ignored or they may be chased off with a snarl and a display of teeth.

Wolves are like people in being sociable animals and it's hard to live together if minor breaches of social etiquette result in one individual hurting another. It's in the interests of every individual and the group as a whole to have an array of signals and strategies for dealing with conflict peacefully. If you are interested in reading more, I'd recommend anything that David Mech has written in the last 15 or so years.

I see the notion of hurting anybody who touches me without permission as very strange and quite disturbing. I'd find it difficult to live a normal life if I felt that I had to behave in that way. In any given day, somebody may rudely push past me in the supermarket, another person might get my attention by putting their hand on my shoulder to ask me for directions, my work colleague may get my attention by grabbing my arm, I might go to the pub and have a drunkenly affectionate man put his arm round me and offer to buy me a drink and when I go to the toilet I may feel another bloke grab my arse as I go past.

These are all things that have happened to me in the last 6 months or so. In none of these examples have the other person sought my permission to touch me. In some of them the touch is inappropriate and unwelcome. And yet still, hurting the people involved would not be okay and isn't something that would cross my mind.

Colorswolf, I feel for you if the world is so threatening to you that you feel hurting anybody who touches you without your permission is okay. Your world must be a scary one.

Please, don't justify your problematic thoughts by making reference to "wild animals". What you describe isn't normal in the "wild" and referencing it is no justification.

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